The REAL Danger of Metagaming on Forums/Discord

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ChevroletElvis
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The REAL Danger of Metagaming on Forums/Discord

Post by ChevroletElvis » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:18 am

I have recently come to a fascinating realization about metagaming that is simply not possible sitting around a table with a bunch of like-minded geeks. It's a threat to a gaming community.


I have poked fun at metagaming in the past by saying things like, "We meta-game every-time we create a character." Okay.... that's correct, however.... I recently came into contact with some people that came here from dying or dead gaming communities, and I think I know why they died:

The role-play was public.

I don't mean public as in being played out on a public server like it is here. Anyone can log in and walk their character into a room and observe role-play.... but not EVERYONE can, and everyone doesn't.

On Arelith, there is a private element to the role-play. There is little risk of your role-play being broadcast on the internet, and if it is, there are people working to try to prevent that from happening.... some of them players.... some of them DMs... but I've found them trying to stop that.

I feel that in the information age, the term "meta-game" has become a lot more dangerous and threatening to a gaming community. If someone participates in metagming now, the interaction can be broadcast on the internet and judged by numerous people that were not involved. The worse case scenario is that our role-play is judged by people that DO NOT CARE... and that is the danger of metagaming.

My point is this. For those of you that already know the dangers of metagaming, thank you for contributing to my realization. For those of you that don't know.... please.... for the sake of the community.... keep what happens IC PRIVATE! Public judgement of our role-play can completely crumble a community. It's happened before. Let's not let it happen here.

Thanks for reading. Sincerely,
ChevroletElvis

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DM Atropos
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Re: The REAL Danger of Metagaming on Forums/Discord

Post by DM Atropos » Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:51 am

People livestream here all the time and our owner is actively promoting this server across areas with worldwide reach.

Not sure exactly what you're trying to say because it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but the only thing even remotely "private" is the lack of desire of a lot of people to play a game with potato graphics and only a handful of active servers, all of which also have very niche lore.
What is woven will be.

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Re: The REAL Danger of Metagaming on Forums/Discord

Post by Skibbles » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:22 pm

I feel like you're dancing around a subject because I can't figure out what you're talking about exactly.

Is this about streaming or YouTube or something?
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

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Re: The REAL Danger of Metagaming on Forums/Discord

Post by Ork » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:30 pm

Or, more the discussion of IC events in an OOC forum/discord? Honestly, this will happen and there's not going to be any manner of control in which we as a community can limit it. I don't necessarily agree that OOC discussion of IC events lead to the immediate decline of a roleplay community, as Arelith's players have engaged in this sort of behavior for ..ever, really.

My advice for combating negative comments of IC roleplay: take the thick skin feat. Haters are going to hate, and people are going to talk about you eventually. Don't control the narrative, but change it through actions in game. That's really the only defense. And, if it gets nasty - report it.

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Re: The REAL Danger of Metagaming on Forums/Discord

Post by Shadowy Reality » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:47 pm

Twitch and Youtube are actually a very interesting mention.

There was a thread recently on the IC Stories subforum, and from what I recall, the current ruling is that it should not portray very recent events that include other characters.

By this notion, Twitch and Youtube would not be allowed, as they provide an accurate portrayal of ingame events. Shouldn't the same rules apply to all means of communication?

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DM Atropos
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Re: The REAL Danger of Metagaming on Forums/Discord

Post by DM Atropos » Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:59 pm

Shadowy Reality wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 3:47 pm
Twitch and Youtube are actually a very interesting mention.

There was a thread recently on the IC Stories subforum, and from what I recall, the current ruling is that it should not portray very recent events that include other characters.

By this notion, Twitch and Youtube would not be allowed, as they provide an accurate portrayal of ingame events. Shouldn't the same rules apply to all means of communication?
We cannot monitor other sites, nor do we have the manpower to do so. Do we, as the team, think it's a great idea to stream? No. For various reasons, possible metagame being only one of them. But the IC stories we do have control over, and we feel it best to exercise our judgement and take on only what we can handle.

Realistically we cannot monitor YouTube or Twitch for every possible instance of streaming, and attempting to do so would be a phenomenal misplacement of our time and talent that would only end in frustration.
What is woven will be.

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Mr_Rieper
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Re: The REAL Danger of Metagaming on Forums/Discord

Post by Mr_Rieper » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:16 pm

This thread is jumping to conclusions.

I've streamed playing on Arelith several times. Some people found it boring to watch me text at people, some people really enjoyed it. Many people from Arelith itself found my stream and enjoyed hearing my commentary on things, as well as interacting as a player.

However one very interesting thing happened the other day. I came across a character that was still wearing his newbie brown tunic, who stopped and roleplayed with a monk nearby. The monk had glowing eyes. This newbie was fantastic, and a joy to watch. Afterwards I complimented him on it, and he thanked me by saying that he had been watching my streams previously and decided to get into it himself.

Now obviously this case was the exception, not the rule. But I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss streaming. It is a tool, like any other, and when properly used it can bring people to the server that had never heard of it otherwise. But I suppose that was the point in the original post, albeit focusing on the bad side.

The fact of the matter is, no matter how much time or energy you invest into it, your RP is not some mythical unicorn that must be protected at all costs. I continuously criticize the people on the server who do nothing but intimidate, PvP and call it conflict. But it would be hypocritical of me if I were to turn a blind eye to the other extreme. Sometimes the RP that spontaneously appears is incredibly fragile and precious, and you appreciate it for that in the moment. But it happens because you put your character out there and know there is a risk of losing something important as well. You may just get a visit from the PvP gank squad. Report it. You may be metagamed by a group of players that systematically dismantle everything you've made. Report it. There may be a server crash that ruins hours worth of resource gathering. Bad things happen to good adventurers.

Have people metagamed from things from my stream, that I've noticed? Yes. Was it mostly harmless, 90% of the time? Yes to that as well. If it was incredibly harmful or cruel, the DMs would get a nice report. Sometimes people metagame accidentally and that's okay. The situation you are describing, however, is intentional metagaming and a violation of the Be Nice rule, which is entirely the fault of the players doing it and NOT the information that was 'leaked'. We can do with fewer temptations but to try to eliminate them entirely or blame it for everything that went wrong is disingenuous.

People have a choice. Punish the ones who behave selfishly or abusively. People will talk on Discord because they think nothing of it, and the vast majority of those people have no reason to blame themselves for anything.
Last edited by Mr_Rieper on Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
CosmicOrderV wrote:
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Be the change you want to see, and shape the server because of it. Players can absolutely help keep their fellow players accountable.

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Cortex
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Re: The REAL Danger of Metagaming on Forums/Discord

Post by Cortex » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:29 pm

That's cool. I think the explosion of GTA RP might give berth to this kind of RP too on streaming.
:)

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Re: The REAL Danger of Metagaming on Forums/Discord

Post by Shadowy Reality » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:38 pm

Mr_Rieper wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:16 pm
This thread is jumping to conclusions.
Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely nothing against streaming Arelith, I actually think it is great and might bring in more people. I am not against people writing what they want in the IC Stories section either. I was really just pointing how similar these were to the IC Stories subforum.

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Re: The REAL Danger of Metagaming on Forums/Discord

Post by Mr_Rieper » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:46 pm

Shadowy Reality wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:38 pm
Mr_Rieper wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:16 pm
This thread is jumping to conclusions.
Don't get me wrong, I have absolutely nothing against streaming Arelith, I actually think it is great and might bring in more people. I am not against people writing what they want in the IC Stories section either. I was really just pointing how similar these were to the IC Stories subforum.
I think it boils down to basic human respect.

I try my best not to stream in sensitive situations, such as espionage or showing things that happen behind closed doors. I also do my best to make people aware that I am streaming, if we are in such a situation. There's always the option of writing letters and handling it later. I don't stream private meetings, of course.

The same applies to the IC forums. Don't leak details of private meetings in your IC story. Don't reveal information about other characters that they take efforts to conceal. These are basic principles of respect, people act as if it must be all or nothing - when in truth it is much, much simpler than that. It's a bad idea to infringe on other people in a manner that disrespects them, no matter what the context. It's also bad idea to fly off the handle because you feel you are being threatened. The server might be PG13 but I think the vast majority of us are adults who can handle our problems with a sense of dignity and maturity.
CosmicOrderV wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 4:55 pm
Be the change you want to see, and shape the server because of it. Players can absolutely help keep their fellow players accountable.

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DM Eyeball
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Re: The REAL Danger of Metagaming on Forums/Discord

Post by DM Eyeball » Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:38 pm

The only thing that upsets me about streams is that tells can be seen onscreen. I'd very much like to see people use -notells, you never know when something odd or personal or... well, just about anything the other player wouldn't want to reveal publically reaches you.

Otherwise... Funkin' GoNuts, sisters and brothers. :-)

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Re: The REAL Danger of Metagaming on Forums/Discord

Post by Anime Sword Fighter » Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:50 pm

I think while overblown the notion of privacy in regards to streaming is one of merit. As DM Eyeball just mentioned about Tells, for example.

Im not really one to personally enjoy watching streams of this game because I think it's mostly boring and honestly not that fun to look at if you're not the one directly in control, because it's so old.

For those that do stream, maybe we could brainstorm more good etiquette/suggestions for quality streams in this thread or another.

Personally I think that a stream/video that's focusing on the RP and story itself could work if you and the main actors plan and prepare the session beforehand -- which imo while may seem like terrible role play isn't so bad when it creates an elaborate narrative (think villains and heroes mitigating harsh feelings through OOC collab) -- which session video is then aided by the streamer's commentary, whether it be on mechanics or whatever. This collab also helps make sure no one involved has anything they don't want to be broadcast and helps them prepare for it. A dedicated group could make a pretty cool channel, when it would be difficult.

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Re: The REAL Danger of Metagaming on Forums/Discord

Post by xanrael » Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:32 am

I'm of two minds on this. On one hand I used to make PvP videos for Eve Online which were without the consent of opponents but on the other hand I didn't stream ransoming someone or show logs of the week(s) spent infiltrating a corp/alliance to the larger public.

I avoid Roll20 RPG games that stream and I'd feel betrayed if the DM was secretly streaming. There isn't any sensitive topic being covered, I'm just unwilling to be entertainment for a nonparticipating audience.

Arelith is sort of in the middle of these two. I'll be honest if I knew a particular character was played by a streamer I'd probably avoid them. If I happened to incidentally show up on their stream fine whatever, but I'd be uninterested in participating in some in-depth arc with them for the hidden audience's amusement.

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Re: The REAL Danger of Metagaming on Forums/Discord

Post by malcolm_mountainslayer » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:29 pm

I understand where this topic go headed, I don't understand it's inception at all.

OP said public rp tears apart communities, but I am lacking examples/evidence (so I can know if there are other factors) and am confused why public scrutiny is a metagaming issue. Yes public knowledge makes it easier to metagame, but the OP makes it sound like public viewership itself is the crime, not metagaming.

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Re: The REAL Danger of Metagaming on Forums/Discord

Post by Mattamue » Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:11 pm

The official Twitter promoted a YouTube last month

https://twitter.com/AArelith/status/1140070411062976514

Seems fine to me, was a very cool listen as well, getting to see into a character and interactions

Who is the audience for this post?


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Re: The REAL Danger of Metagaming on Forums/Discord

Post by Orian_666 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:10 pm

There are a lot of ways to manage a stream to avoid pretty much all concerns here.

First of all Meta Gaming information gathered on it. My main argument here is that that information could be found out by other means and meta gamed anyway, it's not a new thing and it does happen. Does it happen from a stream? Maybe, sure, but the potential benefits to the streaming outweigh it in my opinion. I've watched a few streamers playing Arelith (Mr. Rieper for example, always a steller RPer) and i've enjoyed it, and i've seen other viewers however rare they are enjoy it also.

Second, immediate metagaming. Someone who is online in game watching the stream and acting on what's happening in the stream. Very easy solution to this; there is a lot of software out there to manage streaming and the services themselves are quite intuitive, but basically a good remedy for this is to simply set a delay on the stream. Not only does it improve stream quality as a side effect but it means what is immediately happening can't be meta gamed. It does remove a lot of the streamer - viewer interaction though so that's a downside.

Finally is the Tells concern, there is a very easy solution to this and it's not -notells. Again with the streaming software and even the widgets some services provide. You can simply use something to block out the chat box. Sure viewers are limited to reading what people say in game based only on their chat bubbles, but that's not the end of the world and at least tells and other such things are blocked from the viewers seeing them.

I think the best approach to take with streaming the game (something i've considered doing myself) is to really discuss the topic at length with the team and with the players and come up with some suggested, but not enforced because that's kind of impossible, guidelines on how to manage the stream to get the best experience of the game for everyone involved and have it on the website/wiki.
Last edited by Orian_666 on Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The REAL Danger of Metagaming on Forums/Discord

Post by Mr_Rieper » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:24 pm

Orian_666 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:10 pm
Finally is the Tells concern, there is a very easy solution to this and it's not -notells. Again with the streaming software and even the widgets some services provide. You can simply use something to block out the chat box. Sure viewers are limited to reading what people say in game based only on their chat bubbles, but that's not the end of the world and at least tells and other such things are blocked from the viewers seeing them.
This would be awesome. If there was a 3rd party program that filtered all the info in your client logs, in real time, and highlighted all the info for you but only spat out character interactions for the viewers? That would be so cool. I'd play with both my text windows minimised and have some stream overlay up that had all of the "chat history" for the RP up. No need to worry about tells making it through. Like a filter with a blacklist, that filtered lines with certain identifiers like "as a player" or [Tell], filtering everything down to just the text from characters.

I wouldn't personally play with -notells on, though. From my experience, it is just something that is excessively frustrating when you need to communicate something to people OOC. Sometimes being able to send or receive a tell is necessary.

Also, thanks man. Some of my most fun interactions on stream have been with Arelith players that knew me. There are a surprisingly number of players on the server who enjoy streaming the game. It's not a popular category on Twitch, but the most successful NWN streamer recently was somebody playing on Ravenloft. It's not everybody's cup of tea, but it can be fun.
CosmicOrderV wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 4:55 pm
Be the change you want to see, and shape the server because of it. Players can absolutely help keep their fellow players accountable.

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Re: The REAL Danger of Metagaming on Forums/Discord

Post by Orian_666 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:36 pm

Mr_Rieper wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:24 pm
Orian_666 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:10 pm
Finally is the Tells concern, there is a very easy solution to this and it's not -notells. Again with the streaming software and even the widgets some services provide. You can simply use something to block out the chat box. Sure viewers are limited to reading what people say in game based only on their chat bubbles, but that's not the end of the world and at least tells and other such things are blocked from the viewers seeing them.
This would be awesome. If there was a 3rd party program that filtered all the info in your client logs, in real time, and highlighted all the info for you but only spat out character interactions for the viewers? That would be so cool. I'd play with both my text windows minimised and have some stream overlay up that had all of the "chat history" for the RP up. No need to worry about tells making it through. Like a filter with a blacklist, that filtered lines with certain identifiers like "as a player" or [Tell], filtering everything down to just the text from characters.
No idea about something that can filter the log in real time, but there is software, or at least batch files, that can filter the client logs after the fact. It may be worth looking into to be honest because what you described would be perfect. Minimized chat box with an overlay filtering out tells.

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Re: The REAL Danger of Metagaming on Forums/Discord

Post by xanrael » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:55 pm

Orian_666 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:10 pm
Finally is the Tells concern, there is a very easy solution to this and it's not -notells. Again with the streaming software and even the widgets some services provide. You can simply use something to block out the chat box. Sure viewers are limited to reading what people say in game based only on their chat bubbles, but that's not the end of the world and at least tells and other such things are blocked from the viewers seeing them.
That would only block tells from people not in your LOS, tell messages still show up above their heads if you're nearby. There may be some setting somewhere that goes along with that and if so my bad and where is it?

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Re: The REAL Danger of Metagaming on Forums/Discord

Post by Orian_666 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:54 pm

xanrael wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:55 pm
Orian_666 wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:10 pm
Finally is the Tells concern, there is a very easy solution to this and it's not -notells. Again with the streaming software and even the widgets some services provide. You can simply use something to block out the chat box. Sure viewers are limited to reading what people say in game based only on their chat bubbles, but that's not the end of the world and at least tells and other such things are blocked from the viewers seeing them.
That would only block tells from people not in your LOS, tell messages still show up above their heads if you're nearby. There may be some setting somewhere that goes along with that and if so my bad and where is it?
Yea that's a good point, and absolutely true.
Unfortunately I don't think there is a perfect fix, but for the most part there are ways to soften the "negative" effects of streaming a game that can be so heavily metagamed, some more than others :D

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Re: The REAL Danger of Metagaming on Forums/Discord

Post by ChevroletElvis » Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:37 am

I am impressed by some of the reactions to this thread. Some of you are focusing on finding some solutions to the problem of opening yourselves up to public scrutiny.

The thing that we love here is the game... what is the game? The game is the will of the players unfolding in the form of a story.

There are people that hate the story, there are people that hate you, and there are people that simply hate the fact that there are people having fun. Those people exist on an extremely large scale on the internet.... Just be careful.

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Re: The REAL Danger of Metagaming on Forums/Discord

Post by Anime Sword Fighter » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:58 am

Weirdly vague and alarmist but thanks?

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Re: The REAL Danger of Metagaming on Forums/Discord

Post by xanrael » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:27 pm

If I take my dog to the park and play fetch with them the other people could all be whispering about how I talked, walked, dressed, etc. Like a park Arelith is a public place that anyone can log into and participate.

Now if a streamer proceeded to talk shit about another player to their audience and was reported for it I'd hope they'd face action by the team given the video proof, or have the DMs have a chat with them if they always had a bunch of toxic viewers in their stream.

My personal dislike for streaming is less about privacy and more that I'm not playing to entertain a non-participant audience or want to see people RPing differently because they know they have an audience. As one positive a stream is generally showing a fair accounting of events (with possibly biased commentary) while a clip can be put together to create a certain narrative, especially with conflict RP.

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