Finding a Corpse Etiquette - Rez em, Give em back their coins

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Re: Finding a Corpse Etiquette - Rez em, Give em back their coins

Post by Aren » Sun May 05, 2019 7:13 pm

The Rambling Midget wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 7:08 pm
Szaren wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 7:01 pm
I'm not saying it is. Merely that the OP is advocating the opposite of what they believe is poor gamesmanship and what they consider "griefing".
And what I'm saying is that people need to stop throwing around the word "griefing" so liberally when anything at all doesn't go their way. It's one of the most severe accusations in the world of gaming, and shouldn't be used without great care.
I guess. But how one perceives "griefing" depends on ones subjective opinion of what "griefing" constitutes. That's how the world works these days. Social constructivism and all that.

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Re: Finding a Corpse Etiquette - Rez em, Give em back their coins

Post by The Rambling Midget » Sun May 05, 2019 7:21 pm

Let's not encourage a shift in the wrong direction.
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Re: Finding a Corpse Etiquette - Rez em, Give em back their coins

Post by Opustus » Sun May 05, 2019 7:46 pm

I think people calling the OP out for "entitlement" is a bit uncalled for and undermining, especially since this is a topic the OP brought to open discussion and has proven she's quite comfortable talking about it respectfully with others.

Practically, I think that finding a rezzable corpse constitutes a similar situation as meeting another player. You may choose from different options as a player in terms of how to interact with another player. If you choose to bypass the corpse, you choose to bypass a player and possible RP with that player. By this you value other activities (e.g. earning XP and gold, finishing your dungeon run) more than interacting with the other player. I am not saying that one is right and the other is wrong; I definitely sometimes feel like grind is the main objective of my play session, and I personally think that it's okay to play grind-oriented sessions.

These are choices as players about whether we're interested to interact with other players. It's basically a question of do we want to create RP experiences with strangers we meet along the road. I don't think that the logic of "my character is indifferent for other people's wellbeing, ergo he wouldn't raise someone from the dead" is part of good RP etiquette. I think that the question should be: can you make up a plausible excuse for your character to raise a wanderer that would lead to RP with another player.

I don't see this "you're your own man, face the consequences of playing bad" is an argument we need to make in an RP setting necessarily. If you don't feel like helping out a fellow player because you feel you have better things to do, that's fine by me. But if you're saying that a vague consensus that it would be nice and polite for people to help out their fellow players is somehow wrong and infringing on your right to do whatever you please without any criticism, I very strongly disagree with that.
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Re: Finding a Corpse Etiquette - Rez em, Give em back their coins

Post by The Rambling Midget » Sun May 05, 2019 8:07 pm

Opustus wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 7:46 pm
But if you're saying that a vague consensus that it would be nice and polite for people to help out their fellow players is somehow wrong and infringing on your right to do whatever you please without any criticism, I very strongly disagree with that.
No one has said that anywhere in this thread. The disagreement is with being labeled a bad person for not doing something which has been repeatedly clarified as completely voluntary.
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Re: Finding a Corpse Etiquette - Rez em, Give em back their coins

Post by Sea Shanties » Sun May 05, 2019 8:24 pm

You're not always doing someone a favor by raising them. Dying in PvE for me sometimes means I am done for the day, especially if the death is because of lag or something else outside my control. I may just want to wait the 5 minutes to respawn and log off to go do something else not get wrapped up in having to thank or owe or now be a slave to some random stranger who found the corpse. That's probably why you should ask, in my opinion, ask before raising someone-- you may think it's a nice thing to do for another player, they may see it as an annoyance.

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Re: Finding a Corpse Etiquette - Rez em, Give em back their coins

Post by Opustus » Sun May 05, 2019 8:34 pm

EDIT: To The Rambling Midget

I think that we are discussing the raising of strangers who have died in PvM as a matter of RP and player etiquette. I don't think that the OP has at any point said that she would like to reinforce it as a rule but rather as an informal norm so that players would consider the other player's feelings in how they interact with them in this specific scenario. It's a legitimate question that people seem to be simplifying to "I can do what I want so long as it doesn't break rules" and "don't try to tell me what to do", while I think it warrants a proper discussion considering players' responsibilities as peers who are constantly and consistently considerate towards each other--even towards those left dead in the woods owing to their own overestimation of their PvM ability.

Establishing a vague consensus that it's nice and polite to help out fellow players by not taking their character's money and raising them is a thing we can discuss. Further, it's a thing we can try to establish as part of our everyday etiquette upheld by players who want to see this kind of interaction realised on a more permanent basis. Coupled with the points I tried to make in my former post, I think the OP's opinion is very sensible and fair and not at all labelling. While I do agree that "grief" was a strong word choice, I don't think it's integral to her message.
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Re: Finding a Corpse Etiquette - Rez em, Give em back their coins

Post by Fizzicist » Sun May 05, 2019 11:12 pm

Opustus was significantly more eloquent than my OP. Thank you for reading past my frustration.

TRM, while you couldn't be more wrong as to why I made the post, I humbly accept that the use of the term "griefer" was not the correct choice.

I have enjoyed seeing the many posts on the topic and it has given me additional insight. Thanks to you that offered comment.

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Re: Finding a Corpse Etiquette - Rez em, Give em back their coins

Post by Cortex » Mon May 06, 2019 12:47 am

sometimes id bash random corpses to collect skulls
:)

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Re: Finding a Corpse Etiquette - Rez em, Give em back their coins

Post by JubJub » Mon May 06, 2019 1:03 am

Durvayas wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 2:11 pm
I DO however feel that we should get a notification of who has our corpse when it is picked up. This would have immeasurable value in sorting out who to send tells to after large scale PvP, who found a corpse so that tells can be exchanged in the wilds, who has the corpse after its been handed off to a third party, etc.
While its true that nobody is entitled to a raise, its also absolutely not fair and wrong to give them false hope. They should be able to contact the person who found them and find out if they are getting a raise or not, so they don't sit there for another half hour wondering if they should respawn or not following the 'you have been picked up' and 'you have been dropped' messages.

If I die I never assume anyone will raise me and I personally don't want to spend hours in the death plane just to save some xp. So if I am picked up or not if I don't get a tell saying going to raise you I don't wait around. Letting a player know who has their body is going to lead to metagaming and angry tells about I know you robbed me. The person who has the body should send an ooc tell to the dead person.

As for corpse robbing, it should be up to the alignment of the person. A LG person should be more inclined to give you back your money then a CE person. But if a LG paladin comes across a dead baneite, I really don't see them under any obligation to give the evil guy back his gold. Use his gold to repay those wronged by bane.

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Re: Finding a Corpse Etiquette - Rez em, Give em back their coins

Post by Dr. B » Mon May 06, 2019 1:18 am

Szaren wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 7:13 pm
I guess. But how one perceives "griefing" depends on ones subjective opinion of what "griefing" constitutes. That's how the world works these days. Social constructivism and all that.
If it's my "subjective opinion" that the earth is flat, then my subjective opinion is wrong. Opinions can correspond or fail to correspond to facts, which hold independently of anyone's opinion on them. The same goes, mutatis mutandis, for the claim that ignoring a stray corpse is griefing.

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Re: Finding a Corpse Etiquette - Rez em, Give em back their coins

Post by Archnon » Mon May 06, 2019 3:57 am

Not to derail the conversation in any way, because I want to hear more from other players, But as a newish player, I would like to really thank everyone for posting on this thread. Arelith has its own culture and norms and those norms vary from person to person (much like in RL). From the perspective of a new player, it is really nice to see these types of conversations occuring on a forum because the culture you are diving into can be overwhelming. It gives you an idea of what some people expect, ways to avoid making people too angry and also really good ideas for how to RP a situation that you find yourself playing out in-game a lot but have no experience to deal with it from RL.

As far as the norms go, I have had people raise me and really appreciated it. I can also understand why an evil character would never do it for a stranger, or even potentially for a friend. I play one such character who looks down on weakness and have wanted to play nice but didn't know how to do it in character. This thread has given me a lot of ideas, but ultimately, i wouldn't begrudge someone dumping my body in a ditch for the coin. Different strokes for different folks. The nice thing is being able to come to a thread like this and see different perspectives and get different ideas.

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Re: Finding a Corpse Etiquette - Rez em, Give em back their coins

Post by Wrips » Mon May 06, 2019 4:01 am

No one should be obliged to do anything to my character if I'm on a condition that I'm fully responsible for, in the first case. When it happens, they are just pleasant surprises.

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Re: Finding a Corpse Etiquette - Rez em, Give em back their coins

Post by Mr_Rieper » Mon May 06, 2019 5:02 am

You aren't obligated to help or revive other players. And that is precisely why you should take pride in it. If you use the time and means that you have to help other players make a bad situation better, that is admirable to me. I can't speak for everybody else. There's merely sticking to your RP, using RP to justify anti-social behaviors as a player and then there is finding ways to help others without breaking your RP. All three have drastically different implications and I know which I prefer.

If I said that some of the responses in this thread didn't bother me, I'd be lying. Not wanting to waste time helping ungrateful people is one thing, and on some level, I'd be willing to accept that. But then by the same standard, we have characters shouting down each other's throats at the slightest whiff of racism or wrongthink, which makes for an uncomfortable environment for realistic RP. If only we could reach the such simple conclusions on every sensitive topic, I think the server would be a more comfortable place.

I'll be the first to admit here that (if my last post wasn't clear) I fully ignore the corpses of offline players. I won't even acknowledge it in RP if another character finds the body or wants to RP with people over it. Nope. Nuh-uh. Not on the list? The corpse is not even there, as far as I'm concerned. I'd feel like a sewer rat as a player if I purposefully looted player corpses for gold, so I avoid doing that as well. If you're logged off while dead, you should be prepared to lose the gold anyway though. Not exactly going to think it's a moral issue, it's just a personal standard that I don't enjoy taking money from the deceased. Gold is too easy to come by, being that opportunistic feels like a lot of unnecessary effort.

If an offline corpse is left in a public area, I will OOCly dump it in a trash barrel to spare others from coming across it or being forced to interact with it. I think it also spares the dignity of the offline character. When everybody recognises your name from being a dead body, you can feel a bit uncomfortable. Especially as a new player.
CosmicOrderV wrote:
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Be the change you want to see, and shape the server because of it. Players can absolutely help keep their fellow players accountable.

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Re: Finding a Corpse Etiquette - Rez em, Give em back their coins

Post by Aren » Mon May 06, 2019 9:16 am

Dr. B wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 1:18 am
Szaren wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 7:13 pm
I guess. But how one perceives "griefing" depends on ones subjective opinion of what "griefing" constitutes. That's how the world works these days. Social constructivism and all that.
If it's my "subjective opinion" that the earth is flat, then my subjective opinion is wrong. Opinions can correspond or fail to correspond to facts, which hold independently of anyone's opinion on them. The same goes, mutatis mutandis, for the claim that ignoring a stray corpse is griefing.
That's two very different things. One can be scientifically proven, while the other is subject to interpretation because its construct is influenced by a subjective evaluation of an action. Which is also why there are different player views on what constitutes potentially offensive role play. For example: some people think torture RP is fine and part of the world, and thus see no issue when it is RP'd - while others find it deeply offensive and repulsive (they can opt out ooc'ly of course).

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Re: Finding a Corpse Etiquette - Rez em, Give em back their coins

Post by Jagel » Mon May 06, 2019 11:09 am

^^ The personal opinion on the matter may vary but it is a fact that it is perfectly in tune with the server rules to handle stray corpses IC wether that means bashing, raising or stealing their gold.

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Re: Finding a Corpse Etiquette - Rez em, Give em back their coins

Post by Aren » Mon May 06, 2019 11:33 am

Jagel wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 11:09 am
^^ The personal opinion on the matter may vary but it is a fact that it is perfectly in tune with the server rules to handle stray corpses IC wether that means bashing, raising or stealing their gold.
Yes. I'm not disputing that.

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Re: Finding a Corpse Etiquette - Rez em, Give em back their coins

Post by Dr. B » Mon May 06, 2019 11:38 am

Szaren wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 9:16 am
Dr. B wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 1:18 am
Szaren wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 7:13 pm
I guess. But how one perceives "griefing" depends on ones subjective opinion of what "griefing" constitutes. That's how the world works these days. Social constructivism and all that.
If it's my "subjective opinion" that the earth is flat, then my subjective opinion is wrong. Opinions can correspond or fail to correspond to facts, which hold independently of anyone's opinion on them. The same goes, mutatis mutandis, for the claim that ignoring a stray corpse is griefing.
That's two very different things. One can be scientifically proven, while the other is subject to interpretation because its construct is influenced by a subjective evaluation of an action. Which is also why there are different player views on what constitutes potentially offensive role play. For example: some people think torture RP is fine and part of the world, and thus see no issue when it is RP'd - while others find it deeply offensive and repulsive (they can opt out ooc'ly of course).
Griefing is a pattern of harassment. It's something one person actively does to another. Passively ignoring a corpse doesn't meet that definition. "I don't like x" is subjective. "X counts as griefing" is not.

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Re: Finding a Corpse Etiquette - Rez em, Give em back their coins

Post by Aren » Mon May 06, 2019 11:57 am

Dr. B wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 11:38 am
Szaren wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 9:16 am
Dr. B wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 1:18 am


If it's my "subjective opinion" that the earth is flat, then my subjective opinion is wrong. Opinions can correspond or fail to correspond to facts, which hold independently of anyone's opinion on them. The same goes, mutatis mutandis, for the claim that ignoring a stray corpse is griefing.
That's two very different things. One can be scientifically proven, while the other is subject to interpretation because its construct is influenced by a subjective evaluation of an action. Which is also why there are different player views on what constitutes potentially offensive role play. For example: some people think torture RP is fine and part of the world, and thus see no issue when it is RP'd - while others find it deeply offensive and repulsive (they can opt out ooc'ly of course).
Griefing is a pattern of harassment. It's something one person actively does to another. Passively ignoring a corpse doesn't meet that definition. "I don't like x" is subjective. "X counts as griefing" is not.
How and what one will perceive as harassment varies. And that's why we have the DM's whose subjective opinions, based on both the context of the matter and on a (loose) set of rules, can make that judgement for us. As they did in this thread. I'm not arguing against that. I'm arguing that I think OP is trying to advocate people being nicer to one another, and that he's been experiencing a paradigm shift in how people engage each other in game. And my point is, that by understanding that people are different and experience actions in-game differently than you, can make you aware of how your actions (or passivity for that matter) influence them. And you could argue that it's not your job to go out of your way to resurrect some corpse you found in a dungeon, but it's a nice thing to do, no?

Be excellent to one another.

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Re: Finding a Corpse Etiquette - Rez em, Give em back their coins

Post by Dagonlives » Mon May 06, 2019 12:05 pm

I don't really think you need to raise a random player if you find them. It's a nice gesture, but roleplay should take precedence. Respawn isn't really the end of the world.

If taking the head makes sense, do that. If raising the character makes sense, do that, but I think treating the setting with a suitable weight to the miracle of raise dead is important.

I do recall once I set up an ambush against a good aligned party by having them stop on the road after I handed them the corpse of a player slain earlier. So one can get pretty creative with this mechanic.
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Re: Finding a Corpse Etiquette - Rez em, Give em back their coins

Post by Yma23 » Mon May 06, 2019 1:22 pm

Really what it comes down to is if you can show a bit of kindness and consideration to another pc, whilst remaining at least somewhat in character - it's generally a good idea to do so.

For myself, if I find a corpse, and the player is online at the time, I'll almost always find a reason to raise them. I may or may not give them their gold I think, dependent on the character I'm playing at the time.

And often it's easier than you think to 'raise someone' and 'remain ic'. Just stretch your imagination a bit. Raise someone and gloat over them, or claim they now owe you, or rp a capture, or try and make friends with them in order to use them for information later. The skies the limit.

That said, when my characters die I never feel like I'm 'owed' a raise. I mean - it's nice if it happens, but it's not a thing I expect neccesarly. If I die and get raised, great. If I don't? No biggy.

The only 'corpse stuff' that I find grief-shaped is when someone is killed in pvp, and the pvper puts their corpse in a container.

If you kill a character, then either ask to raise them for further rp. Or else bash them. Or heck, even leave their body out to be found! (though if you're leaving it in a remote area, maybe send them a tell saying that you've just left their corpse). Basicaly show a tiny bit of consideration for player expectations and stopping them waiting around the fugue for ages on the false hope of a raise. To me that's worse than any amount of stealing or ignoring.

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Re: Finding a Corpse Etiquette - Rez em, Give em back their coins

Post by Durvayas » Mon May 06, 2019 5:16 pm

Yma23 wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 1:22 pm
If you kill a character, then either ask to raise them for further rp. Or else bash them. Or heck, even leave their body out to be found! (though if you're leaving it in a remote area, maybe send them a tell saying that you've just left their corpse). Basicaly show a tiny bit of consideration for player expectations and stopping them waiting around the fugue for ages on the false hope of a raise. To me that's worse than any amount of stealing or ignoring.
This was basically the salient point of what I was saying. Don't give people false hope, its a shitty thing to do.
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Re: Finding a Corpse Etiquette - Rez em, Give em back their coins

Post by Veresi » Tue May 07, 2019 1:22 pm

Durvayas wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 5:16 pm
Yma23 wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 1:22 pm
If you kill a character, then either ask to raise them for further rp. Or else bash them. Or heck, even leave their body out to be found! (though if you're leaving it in a remote area, maybe send them a tell saying that you've just left their corpse). Basicaly show a tiny bit of consideration for player expectations and stopping them waiting around the fugue for ages on the false hope of a raise. To me that's worse than any amount of stealing or ignoring.
This was basically the salient point of what I was saying. Don't give people false hope, its a shitty thing to do.
I completely agree with that.

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Re: Finding a Corpse Etiquette - Rez em, Give em back their coins

Post by Azensor » Fri May 10, 2019 4:10 am

Typically if i run across a corpse the first thing i do is check the playerlist.
Are they on? Send them a quick tell to see if they want a rez
Are they off?
Well..what i do next depends entirely on what type of character I am playing at the time, if im on a evil character? might just check their pockets for some spare coins, if im on a monster? well.. i tend to just ignore pc corpses on those altogether.

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Re: Finding a Corpse Etiquette - Rez em, Give em back their coins

Post by The Kriv » Fri May 17, 2019 9:31 pm

For my ranger PC, traversing areas, locating 'lost' PC's or maybe even popping out of stealth to 'save' someone who looks like they are about to be flattened used to happen a lot more before the introduction of Skal & Distant Shores. Now such a large portion of new-players (or even just new characters) are not in the main mix of the accidental wander into dangerous territory and so coming across corpses just a few screens off the beaten path isn't such a thing (in my experience) as it was in the past.

When the death/rez change went into effect, and scrolls were no longer purchasable on merchants, and I couldn't stockpile rez scrolls to use on random people (or the odd dead-NPC) and so I started picking up the corpse and carrying it to the nearest road-altar for a rez.

Sadly... "finding" an alter when you need one isn't quite as easy as you might think.

Mostly you walk by them on the road and don't give a thought... but then when you "NEED" an alter, you start racking your brain to think/remember where the nearest one is... and maybe my feeble memory is at fault, but there's been a number of times, I've ended up spending 15-20 minutes wandering around looking for an alter... 'thinking' there was one not far away, only to get to where I 'thought' it was, and there was no alter... or it is an alter, but not an alter that lets you raise a dead PC.


As a result of this, I've had to adjust my own play-style, that when I 'see' a corpse on the ground... or if I "see" a player about to get flattened (cuz you know... we stealthers are always watching the rest of you) if I can't immediately think of where the nearest road-alter is... then I usually shrug my IC shoulders, and leave the recently deceased alone. especially if I 'watched them die'

TL/DR:
It is the sad unfortunate state of the current system. I would otherwise 'LOVE' to rez them on the spot (or near the spot) and have some good RP interaction, and get to play the role of the wandering Ranger who saved your solo'ing butt.... maybe even send yo on your merry way with some extra healing supplies so you don't end up dead again... or even guide you to safety...

but due to the simple fact of the time it takes to transport a fallen stranger TO an altar, is more often than not, an investment in time usually I can't afford... and thus, the opportunity for really good RP is lost.

Maybe others feel similarly.
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Re: Finding a Corpse Etiquette - Rez em, Give em back their coins

Post by Gaal » Fri May 17, 2019 9:40 pm

Fizzicist wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 4:24 am
First, there is likely a thread about this...and I missed it. Sorry.

Opinion: When finding a random corpse during my travels, the first thing I do after securing the area is to look at the player list to see if they are online. If they are, I contact them OOC to tell them I'll take them to a rez location. My thought is that I want them to know whom picked them up and that they don't need to respawn. Also, it lets them know who found them for loot purposes too. I always give them back their coins. Sometimes they offer a reward, sometimes they don't. Back in the "carry a bunch of rez scroll" days we always gave them replacement costs for the scroll.

Sadly, to me anyway, many choose to loot a player's corpse and let it lie. I'm not a fan. I expect a variety of justification replies on this topic but my opinion is that we all spend a bit of time here for fun and if your version of fun is at the expense of another (that is not complicit as in PvP and so forth) then your actions are akin to that of a griefer.

Lastly (TL;DR), if you find a corpse but are with a group or have a limited amount of time to play and just can't afford the time to take it back to a rez altar, at least tell them OOC. Heck you can loot them and give them the coin back via transfer or IG meeting later just to save the poor sap his/her coins (especially if she just sold scrolls or was on her way to buy something and had a bigger purse).

It is my opinion that folks RP'd this much much better in the pre EE days. The frequency of corpse looters seems to have greatly increased. I don't know if it is due to the game mechanic change, a lack of maturity of new players, or something else...but it seems that far too many "tribes" of players are only for themselves at the cost of all others playing. And, they know you can't do anything about it as their actions are anonymous.
Evil does evil, for example if I rez a player it is to enslave them. Now, if they are kin or part of my party, I may do the right thing but as an evil race greed usually rules the day.

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