How to "Win" a Neverending Game

[Burt Macklin, FBI]

Hi Arelith.

I've noticed a trend, lately, that I wanted to gather some outside opinions on.

Arelith has the largest playerbase of any Neverwinter Nights server I've ever seen, and that's incredible! I recall when the servers had a maximum of twenty to thirty people on it, even during peak hours; sometimes, late at night, I'd be the only person online.

Arelith has come a long way since then: in many ways, thanks to the dedication of the devs' and DM teams' constant effort, and thanks to the exponential growth of the playerbase as well.

But with the latter of those boons, a problem arises. It's simply the nature of the beast, with an online persistant world like Arelith, but it exists nonetheless - the server is full to bursting with protagonists.

Now, protagonists are not in and of themselves an issue. Hell, they're absolutely needed to drive the collaborative story that is Arelith forward. But, as with any overabundance of people, I'm noticing something of a "too many cooks" situation arising; protagonists stepping on other protagonist's toes for the sake of driving their own story forward.

I'm guilty of it myself - I think most of us are, to some degree.

I feel this "winning" mentality has more detriment than good, in a place like Arelith; a collaborative story; a world where the actions of one could have ripple effects that affect many more.

But rather than dwell on the negative, I'd like to hear some positive.

I'd like to hear what you guys do, in your own little ways, to help this collaborate story of ours moving forward; things that you do to help elevate the characters around you, and build onto their stories.

I'd like for this to be some constructive feedback - for myself, as I'm still learning how to be the best player I can be, and for anyone else willing to take a peek inside this thread. I think, as a community, we should help one another rise above: go that extra mile to help one another, as that's what makes Arelith so truly unique to me, and to many others. It's not just about me, or you, but the collective.

I'll start, with something I've been trying:

The last handful of characters I've made have all been, generally speaking, background characters. I try to stick to the sidelines, as far as storytelling goes, and help the people around me reach their own characters' goals.

I've found that, by and large, this in turn gives more incentive for those players to turn around and help my characters find their own goals.

It's a win-win, of sorts: I feel great helping these other amazing players meet the expectations they've set for their own storyline, and it feels great in turn to then be helped by these new friends I've made.

I'd love to hear some other tips from the community, anything from a micro to a macro scale, on how to better the server as a whole, and on how to be the best player I can be.

[Kreydis]

Take your character seriously, and others will take your character seriously.

Trust your fellow player. The best hostile RP encounters I've had all have one thing in common. We oocly, took a step back, and talked with each other to see how best we could RP this, before leading to mechanical PvP (If It happened.) Or just shout one word, cast time stop, then cast death spells if you never want me to interact with you ever again.

Out of game methods of messaging other players is nice. But often leads to shutting the door for opportunity for people not already in the 'group'. Not to mention the worse things that happen in them. Generally, I don't trust them anymore, and will go as far as to say it's a detriment to RP on Arelith. But your mileage will vary.

Bit of an edit: I kinda dodged the point. But just roll with it. Be kind to each other oocly, and be serious about your character. If there's not enough room in the same zone for 50 heros, you're always able to take yourself out of the picture.

[MoreThanThree]

Set a goal and accomplish it.

[-XXX-]

Have fun and more importantly share it with other players.

[Iceborn]

Strangely, this last month since I got back I haven't... seen actually many 'protagonists'.
I play mostly in UD, and I know last year we were full and brimming with factions, which heavy weight characters rallying dozens of other characters behind to push their own plots, their own agendas of open bullying or backstabbery, and that was great.

These days, I feel that most characters in UD are... in the sidelines, that there's hardly anybody trying to start anything big or push other people into their own plots. And that does kinda worry me.

Excess of protagonist characters can be a problem, indeed - depending how they are handled (our characters all have to pass the torch eventually, and we have to choose when to bow down and accept a thematically fitting, satisfying defeat at the hand of their rivals and competitors). But right now I'm not seeing any such excess, at least down in UD.



As for myself, I play an unstable villain, that can't do anything on her own. She's riddled with weaknesses and conflict, and she needs a lot of help to keep herself steady and unhinged, or resolute in what she thinks she's doing "right".
That inability, the instability, that necessity of other characters twists the formula here and there, and others may take up the torch when she cannot hold it anymore. Giving agency, testing other characters, putting them up in different situations that they wouldn't expect to find themselves into keeps things interesting for everybody - there are some players that may "lock up" and freeze when you give them something that they weren't expecting to have to handle, but you should expect that it can happen, and be ready to keep the ball moving if you see if somebody butter fingers on the dynamics of interaction.

[slight_homicide]

Ive found myself time and time again, with most characters I play, never having a main story arch. Of course yes theyll have ideals and things they want to do with their lives, but if I find someone who I honest to god enjoy spending time with, playing, talking and just hanging with I will do whatever I can to ensure that they have the best time possible that I can provide. Granted it doesnt always work out, plot lines fall through, people move on. I recognize that this is a place for people to be someone new, something new, so do what you can. Go with them on their long treks, listen to their monologues, just enjoy and build at the story this person is building for themselves, because in the end all its about is just sitting back and being happy with your story when the tale is finished.

[Gobbo Champion Inc]

That there is only a limited "amount" of spotlight, to go around is not just a bad thing. Conflict, and struggle for a prominance and relevance are both good catalysts for story.

[Cerk Evermoore]

I honestly am curious what the population difference between surface and UD is. Because I suspect it must be pretty big.

[Vincent]

I personally don't see much issue in players driving their character towards a positive goal - after all, why would anyone work to undermine themselves? However, I agree that there is an issue, and for me it's when OOC knowledge becomes too heavily involved (ergo, metagaming - far more common on Arelith than you'd like to believe). When I see people asking a player to cast "summon creature I" to prove they are not a warlock (yes, seriously), knowing that they will be forced to summon a lemure/mane, that's where I feel roleplay breaks down and immersion is ruined. I doubt the warlock in that situation had much fun knowing that refusing to cast the spell would tar them just as poorly as actually casting it, when to my knowledge you aren't even really casting summon creature I to call upon fiends and demons, it's just like that in Arelith for the sake of mechanical convenience.

To this end, I feel there are very few places for evil roleplayers on the surface unless you plan to remain completely covert the entire time until you roll a 1 vs a random paladin's detect evil check, or roleplay a Sencliff pirate. Or I suppose you can go to Sibayad, where you'll be lucky if you get to roleplay with three or so people during the course of the entire day. Without evil the good-aligned PCs have no one to quash, so perhaps it's time good showed a little more leniency rather than being so bloodthirsty that the second evil is mentioned a warband of ten or so epic characters have trekked across the entirety of Arelith to find a level thirteen necromancer just sitting and crying in a cave somewhere.

Because that really does happen. A lot.

[The Rambling Midget]

Island affecting mechanical "victories" almost never stick. They'll eventually be undone, forgotten, or straight up lied about to serve someone else's story. So, your truly lasting victories will be the personal ones, and "winning" means successfully portraying your character in an enjoyable and honest way while working toward their goals.

My last character achieved very few of her external goals, but she was still one of the best characters I've ever played, because her story was about growing and maturing as a person. While she had many failures, those moments provided opportunities to express and develop her character, alongside some fantastic players.

Winning, for me, is about experiencing those perfect moments where my character comes into focus and synergizes with those around them. They're rare, but sometimes leave me thinking back for days about how everything came together just right.

[The GrumpyCat]

Island affecting mechanical "victories" almost never stick. They'll eventually be undone, forgotten, or straight up lied about to serve someone else's story. So, your truly lasting victories will be the personal ones, and "winning" means successfully portraying your character in an enjoyable and honest way while working toward their goals.

My last character achieved very few of her external goals, but she was still one of the best characters I've ever played, because her story was about growing and maturing as a person. While she had many failures, those moments provided opportunities to express and develop her character, alongside some fantastic players.

Winning, for me, is about experiencing those perfect moments where my character comes into focus and synergizes with those around them. They're rare, but sometimes leave me thinking back for days about how everything came together just right.

Yeah, for me this is very true.

Don't get entitled too. I don't like saying 'No one ows you anything.' Because you know, politeness, kindness and general good conduct - the basic stuff sure. But just because you're playing a Paladin does not mean that the bad guys should -delete_character upon their firts death, or sitting their wetting themselves with terror because you logged in, no matter how many pvp encounters you've managed.
Likewise Just because you play Evil mc Evil does not mean that someone 'should' be your slave or 'should' pay the bounty or 'should' put up with a long torture session. You cannot control other peoples rp, do not expect them to always go along with yours. However, try to go along with theirs as much as you can, work on the expectation that them might, and try fun new things. Maybe they won't? Oh well. Maybe they will! Awsome! But do not 'expect' or 'demand' anything. Hope for it. Be happy when it happesn. Be privilaged and highly thankful when someone gives you a 'win'. But don't go expecting it, and certainly don't go demanding it.

Most of the 'Wins' you will get, the good ones, won't be because the other person was terrible. It will be because the other person was awsome and -GAVE- you that win. It is a gift. Keep that in mind.

Also manage your expectations, manage your 'win' desires. Set up for yourself lots of little 'wins' on a day by day or week by week basis, and maybe one big 'win' of personal character goal/growth. And any other 'Win' that involves other people should be very much 'eh it's nice if it happens, but if it doesn't who cares?'

Bad example of 'Win' condition
"I want my evil drow to raid Guldorand and burn it to the ground.,I want them to take many slaves and then rp torturing them until they break and I can stand on top of these mutilated broken characters and have every surfacer weep in terror at my presence, recognising me as Torgar the Unspeakable!'

Good example of 'Win' condition
'I want to try to raid Guldorand, and see what happens. Maybe I'll take some people prisoner and see what sort of situation that leads to. It'd be good if people were entertained by my raid and found it fun. I will hopefully find people on the other side I enjoy rping with, and we'll set up a fun story. Maybe my character will end up liking one of the prisoners, or maybe they'll be enemies. We'll see.'

And again - very few victories in Arelith are perminent. I hate to break it to you, but 'Destroying Cordor' is not going to happen. Enjoy it for an episodic tale, wherein your character is a bit part that doesn't change anything perminent, but has a compelling personal tale. That is how I find things work best.

And ultimatley - you 'Win' Arelith if you have fun, and if you can share that fun with others.

[Royal Blood]

What can be frustrating is when the impossibility of a pure win is used as a reason to say your character IC failed. Like if you raid a place, and don't burn it to the ground, and that place goes back to doing what it was doing a month later, you're made out to be a failure IG.

I think it's important to allow al little bit of OOC consideration in there you know? Because it's ~very~ rare that the devs will allow a place to be completely scorched, so making someone out to be a 'failure' IC because they didn't achieve an impossible goal is irritating and IC there's no way to negotiate around it because you just -cannot do it- by design of the game but from the IC perspective that impossibility doesn't exist.

I hope that makes sense?

Otherwise winning for me is making RP. If emotions are flowing, people are showing up to things and I have the opportunity to create RP or give people the tools to further their story that is exciting to me and what I would consider a win.

[Subutai]

As someone very new to Arelith, I'm a little hesitant to say anything here, since I haven't had a chance to experience the issues being talked about, personally, on this server. I have, however, experienced it plenty of times in the past on other servers, so I thought I'd throw in my two cents on the (relatively obvious) primary reasons that seem to cause the issues, and how they can be avoided. This post also ballooned way bigger than I intended, but I'm a really horrible and lazy editor, so I'm just going to leave it all and preface it with an apology for the length, and a thanks to everyone who reads it through despite the almost absolute certainty that you won't gain any meaningful insight from it whatsoever.

Largely, the reasons these sorts of "winning protagonist" ideas appear is, as I'm sure everyone is already very aware, we're all very used to simple, short, compact stories with clear beginnings, middles, and ends, and protagonists who set out with a specifically defined goal which they ultimately accomplish. This goal, almost inevitably, is to completely and entirely entirely prevent the antagonist from achieving their goal. The hero wins, the villain loses. Voldemort wants to take over the world, Harry Potter wants to stop him, and does so. Luke Skywalker defeats the Empire. Frodo destroys the One Ring and defeats Sauron. The end. Other than a bit of epilogue (or later sequels), there's no more conflict. For all the audience knows or cares, good has triumphed over evil forever. Even in the few stories that specifically flip this trope and put the evil character in the role of protagonist, whoever wins in the end is ultimately victorious forever. Naturally, all of us being so intimately familiar with this kind of storytelling, we feel particularly drawn to it when creating our characters. We want our characters to be Harry, Luke, or Frodo, who fight against all odds and achieve so much success that nothing ever goes wrong again.

As this topic makes clear from the start, though, Arelith isn't a story with a beginning, middle, and end. Our traditional views of the hero's journey don't fit. Rather, it's much more similar to the real world, where the story (from a human perspective) began tens of thousands of years ago, and will probably (hopefully) continue for tens of thousands more, and even within the shorter periods of lifetimes and events, there's no distinct "end" for people, other than death. Very few people simply achieve one great victory and then remain important and relevant forever, winning victory after victory, or resting on that one victory. When they do, those victories don't last forever, even if they last beyond the lifetime of the initial "protagonist".

William the Conqueror of the House of Normandy conquered England in 1066. By 1154, a civil war had torn England apart and left another family in power over all of England and much of France (unofficially called the Angevin Empire). Within a few generations, while that family still ruled England, they'd lost much of their French holdings.

Douglas MacArthur, famed and heroic general of the Eastern Front of World War II, was beloved after the war, but fell so far from grace in the following few years that he was removed from command in Korea by President Truman without Truman really suffering much political damage at all. Patton, perhaps an even more legendary general of the war, helped lead the Allies to victory over the Nazis only to die in an otherwise minor car accident.

Alexander the Great, maybe the best known and remembered person in all of history, didn't scrape together an army from nothing, conquer unbeatable foes, and create a permanent empire. In fact, almost entirely the opposite. He was given one of the greatest armies known to the world at the time by his father, Phillip, and used it to conquer an empire already beginning to fall apart. By the time he defeated the very paper-tiger-like Persians, he turned back. Some say his own men refused to go further. Others say he didn't believe he could defeat the very un-paper-tiger-like Indian empires and turned back himself. Either way, his victories ended. He was, one way or another, finally defeated, and only a short time later, before even getting home, he died. Not gloriously in some last stand, but very probably just because he was an alcoholic and killed himself drinking. Once he was dead, his empire collapsed, and the empires that formed from it had many victories and losses of their own before falling themselves.

As Arelith is fantasy, maybe even more appropriate is a comparison to the works of Tolkien. Middle Earth didn't begin and end with Frodo. The whole First, Second, and Third Ages existed before him. Isildur defeated Sauron only to fall prey to the Ring and be killed in an ambush. In fact, if you read Tolkien's smaller works, you'll find dozens of protagonists who don't achieve final victory. Feanor crafted the Silmarils, had them stolen by Morgoth, pursued them, killed his own people to get them back, and then... didn't. He chased them across the sea and tried to face Morgoth, only to be killed in battle with Bolrogs, having regained none of the Silmarils and not defeated Morgoth. Both were achieved eventually, but two of the three Silmarils were retrieved by his sons, who had done so much evil in pursuit of them that they were found unworthy, and both were thrown away again in anger. Only one Silmaril was retrieved heroically, by the human Beren, although he (kind of) died in the attempt, and left Middle Earth after his success, not lingering on there.

In fact, Middle Earth might be the best lesson of all. Other than perhaps Aragorn, the only everlasting heroes in Middle Earth are the ones who die or who leave. None of them win their great victory only to stay in Middle Earth and reign supreme for eternity. Tolkien's works are, ultimately, the story of Middle Earth. Not the story of the Silmarils, or the Ring, or Frodo, or any one thing or one person. They're the story of the world.

Ultimately, these are the lessons we need to take away for our own characters. Arelith isn't a stand-alone fantasy adventure that ends when our character defeats evil. It's a persistent world, like our own, that began before most of started playing, and more of us started playing the characters we play now, and will go one long after most of us stop playing, and more of us stop playing the characters we play now. Each of our characters might have their own story, but ultimately, we're not playing the part of the main protagonist of our own story. We're playing the part of a character in the story of Arelith, and in the story of Arelith, like the story of our real world or the stories of Tolkien, there's no one person, thing, or goal to achieve that will last forever. The only thing that will last through the story if Arelith itself.

If we pursue our characters' stories with that in mind, that they're all playing a role in one big story, it might become a little easier to understand that our characters' own stories are only a part of that. Our characters might be protagonists to chapters, or to paragraphs, but the story of Arelith is simply too big for any of them to be the main protagonist.

[Hazard]

As someone very new to Arelith, I'm a little hesitant to say anything here, since I haven't had a chance to experience the issues being talked about, personally, on this server. I have, however, experienced it plenty of times in the past on other servers, so I thought I'd throw in my two cents on the (relatively obvious) primary reasons that seem to cause the issues, and how they can be avoided. This post also ballooned way bigger than I intended, but I'm a really horrible and lazy editor, so I'm just going to leave it all and preface it with an apology for the length, and a thanks to everyone who reads it through despite the almost absolute certainty that you won't gain any meaningful insight from it whatsoever.

Largely, the reasons these sorts of "winning protagonist" ideas appear is, as I'm sure everyone is already very aware, we're all very used to simple, short, compact stories with clear beginnings, middles, and ends, and protagonists who set out with a specifically defined goal which they ultimately accomplish. This goal, almost inevitably, is to completely and entirely entirely prevent the antagonist from achieving their goal. The hero wins, the villain loses. Voldemort wants to take over the world, Harry Potter wants to stop him, and does so. Luke Skywalker defeats the Empire. Frodo destroys the One Ring and defeats Sauron. The end. Other than a bit of epilogue (or later sequels), there's no more conflict. For all the audience knows or cares, good has triumphed over evil forever. Even in the few stories that specifically flip this trope and put the evil character in the role of protagonist, whoever wins in the end is ultimately victorious forever. Naturally, all of us being so intimately familiar with this kind of storytelling, we feel particularly drawn to it when creating our characters. We want our characters to be Harry, Luke, or Frodo, who fight against all odds and achieve so much success that nothing ever goes wrong again.

As this topic makes clear from the start, though, Arelith isn't a story with a beginning, middle, and end. Our traditional views of the hero's journey don't fit. Rather, it's much more similar to the real world, where the story (from a human perspective) began tens of thousands of years ago, and will probably (hopefully) continue for tens of thousands more, and even within the shorter periods of lifetimes and events, there's no distinct "end" for people, other than death. Very few people simply achieve one great victory and then remain important and relevant forever, winning victory after victory, or resting on that one victory. When they do, those victories don't last forever, even if they last beyond the lifetime of the initial "protagonist".

William the Conqueror of the House of Normandy conquered England in 1066. By 1154, a civil war had torn England apart and left another family in power over all of England and much of France (unofficially called the Angevin Empire). Within a few generations, while that family still ruled England, they'd lost much of their French holdings.

Douglas MacArthur, famed and heroic general of the Eastern Front of World War II, was beloved after the war, but fell so far from grace in the following few years that he was removed from command in Korea by President Truman without Truman really suffering much political damage at all. Patton, perhaps an even more legendary general of the war, helped lead the Allies to victory over the Nazis only to die in an otherwise minor car accident.

Alexander the Great, maybe the best known and remembered person in all of history, didn't scrape together an army from nothing, conquer unbeatable foes, and create a permanent empire. In fact, almost entirely the opposite. He was given one of the greatest armies known to the world at the time by his father, Phillip, and used it to conquer an empire already beginning to fall apart. By the time he defeated the very paper-tiger-like Persians, he turned back. Some say his own men refused to go further. Others say he didn't believe he could defeat the very un-paper-tiger-like Indian empires and turned back himself. Either way, his victories ended. He was, one way or another, finally defeated, and only a short time later, before even getting home, he died. Not gloriously in some last stand, but very probably just because he was an alcoholic and killed himself drinking. Once he was dead, his empire collapsed, and the empires that formed from it had many victories and losses of their own before falling themselves.

As Arelith is fantasy, maybe even more appropriate is a comparison to the works of Tolkien. Middle Earth didn't begin and end with Frodo. The whole First, Second, and Third Ages existed before him. Isildur defeated Sauron only to fall prey to the Ring and be killed in an ambush. In fact, if you read Tolkien's smaller works, you'll find dozens of protagonists who don't achieve final victory. Feanor crafted the Silmarils, had them stolen by Morgoth, pursued them, killed his own people to get them back, and then... didn't. He chased them across the sea and tried to face Morgoth, only to be killed in battle with Bolrogs, having regained none of the Silmarils and not defeated Morgoth. Both were achieved eventually, but two of the three Silmarils were retrieved by his sons, who had done so much evil in pursuit of them that they were found unworthy, and both were thrown away again in anger. Only one Silmaril was retrieved heroically, by the human Beren, although he (kind of) died in the attempt, and left Middle Earth after his success, not lingering on there.

In fact, Middle Earth might be the best lesson of all. Other than perhaps Aragorn, the only everlasting heroes in Middle Earth are the ones who die or who leave. None of them win their great victory only to stay in Middle Earth and reign supreme for eternity. Tolkien's works are, ultimately, the story of Middle Earth. Not the story of the Silmarils, or the Ring, or Frodo, or any one thing or one person. They're the story of the world.

Ultimately, these are the lessons we need to take away for our own characters. Arelith isn't a stand-alone fantasy adventure that ends when our character defeats evil. It's a persistent world, like our own, that began before most of started playing, and more of us started playing the characters we play now, and will go one long after most of us stop playing, and more of us stop playing the characters we play now. Each of our characters might have their own story, but ultimately, we're not playing the part of the main protagonist of our own story. We're playing the part of a character in the story of Arelith, and in the story of Arelith, like the story of our real world or the stories of Tolkien, there's no one person, thing, or goal to achieve that will last forever. The only thing that will last through the story if Arelith itself.

If we pursue our characters' stories with that in mind, that they're all playing a role in one big story, it might become a little easier to understand that our characters' own stories are only a part of that. Our characters might be protagonists to chapters, or to paragraphs, but the story of Arelith is simply too big for any of them to be the main protagonist.

Very well said :3

[Eters]

Would you be playing a protagonist, an antagonist, or just a side character. a victory for me is when you manage to drive a fun plot for yourself, and all those involved with you in it.

Such do not require the best build, or the most array of bashed heads in your inventory, just people willing to take a step back here and there, to allow a certain plot to grow.

If you as a player, manage to make others "roll with the plot" , then that is the best victory you could get.

The amount of battles your character may get involved is high, and you may win every single one of them yet if there is no story driving them, or no story born from them, you will feel like all is stale and meaningless.

But a single battle that is born from a growing plot, and which leads to furthering the plot with a mechanical victory /AND/ defeat, would be a win for both sides.

[Nobs]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo9buo9Mtos

[Hazard]

The real way to defeat enemies in a never-ending game is to make unflattering artworks of them, and hide them around the module >:)

[Drexyl N~drass]

Part of what adds to the win mentality, I think, is we allow certain meta. Take heads for example, you can expose someone as whatever if you saw them doing something shady, managed to kill them and get their head. Sure you may not have broken their disguise, but now a player can just hold onto to your head for x amount of time, then a few ig months or weeks later say "Oh this person was doing so and so, and I have their head as proof" As the person being accused stands there alive with a head on his shoulders. It's so meta, and it is allowed..

[good man of god]

And ultimatley - you 'Win' Arelith if you have fun, and if you can share that fun with others.

[Hazard]

Part of what adds to the win mentality, I think, is we allow certain meta. Take heads for example, you can expose someone as whatever if you saw them doing something shady, managed to kill them and get their head. Sure you may not have broken their disguise, but now a player can just hold onto to your head for x amount of time, then a few ig months or weeks later say "Oh this person was doing so and so, and I have their head as proof" As the person being accused stands there alive with a head on his shoulders. It's so meta, and it is allowed..

Actually I think heads were removed. The last time I tried to take a head as a trophy is just gave me a blank 'skull' item instead.

[Diilicious]

the best way to win a neverending game is to stop trying to win imo

[Marsi]

The real way to defeat enemies in a never-ending game is to make unflattering artworks of them, and hide them around the module >:)

Unironically this. Character assassination is underutilized and lacing art and histories with propaganda can be surprisingly effective.

[Tarkus the dog]

It's often that people drag others into the characters they're playing and it's a hard thing to avoid. It's also hard for people to set apart the player and the character and this can be very unnerving for those who just want to leave the 'me' part out of everything. It's also normal, or natural. It's nearly impossible to play a character you can't relate yourself to. But there needs to be a limit, and not enough players respect it.

What you can do is to not be afraid to lose, and hope that others will also follow the same mentality. Don't give the greedy ones too much benefit of the doubt though, a lot of people will also try to abuse your stance on defeat. It's one of the topics I can babble on forever but i think that this is the gist of it. At the end of the day, the real winner is the 'fun' aspect of the game. If you can find it and spread it with others then you've won. Do you like my vague answers? Check for more at www.fluffydoggers.rs

[Subutai]

I want to add, "winning" doesn't always mean being the out-and-out victor. If a group of righteous heroes surrounds your evil character, or a group of villainous villains surrounds your righteous hero, and demand that your character submit, "winning" doesn't mean single-handedly killing them all, or escaping and enacting retribution, or eventually achieving some great triumph over them. It can be as simple as just not submitting. If some Banites tell your character to submit to the tyranny of Lord Bane or die, and your character refuses, and dies, that's still a win. Your character's... character was strong enough to stand up for what they believed in. That might not end up in some satisfying storybook victory in the end, but your character still did what they thought was right.

The goes for bigger story lines, too. We often think in terms of complete success or complete failure, but even if your character struggles to achieve a goal and falls short, they still made the attempt, which is a kind of win in and of itself.

[420chambers]

The best winner was Jake Mandrake and I think everyone just wants to be him.