Good and Evil

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Echohawk
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Good and Evil

Post by Echohawk » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:29 am

I know we have lots of new players out there, and plenty of tried and true folks who have been around for years.
But lately there's been a trend from a variety of folks that I personally feel needs to be just gently reminded of.

Dungeons and Dragons is not like the modern world.
While this game is on the internet and features a plethora of regions, cultures, and personalities it needs to be separated from your current modern day understanding. Also, your character is not you, there is no need to take things so personally, and certainly no reason to escalate matters in an out of character fashion.

Good and evil are clear cut for the most part, and exist to show division between what is a rewarded behavior in this fantasy environment and what is discouraged (unless, y'know, you have an evil character and so on).

To exist with a modern ideology causes confusion and strife when it comes to those who are making stories that can also be complicated on their own. Things that are 'blanket' (without question or debate) evil actions are some of the following examples:
- Sacrificing and innocent person of any age to an evil deity.
- Reanimating the remains of the dead in a way that does not return them to proper life. (skeleton, ghoul, vampire, etc) ((Think Game of Thrones and the reanimation of the children in a village turning and attacking their family and community members, pretty messed up right?))

Pretty obvious stuff when it comes down to it. Now the more tricky part is when we get into more borderline issues (and more importantly when paladins get into these types of behaviors). There are certain deities that do have pretty distinct dogmas of how their clergy and champions should behave. I don't imagine that everyone will have them memorized but it's important to note that players who are playing paladin characters will have actions judged. (This applies for blackguards/assassins and other alignment based classes but ironically they don't have as much problem performing evil deeds..)

When characters (especially paladins) get close to these 'borderline' behaviors, it can lead down a path that could be rather damaging to the character. Which is why I bring this to a degree of attention.
- Lying. (some deities absolutely forbid this in any portrayal or intention and are not saved by out of character reasons)
- Slaying for a perceived evil, which later turns out to be not. (the I was just following orders excuse doesn't really help)
- Harboring/Openly interacting with monstrous characters/undead wielders/fiend wielders - (If you're a paladin, you cannot just 'be friends' with these sorts of people, at best with those who can be saved you have to actively trying to do so. There cannot be a gap in one's spiritual armor so to speak.)

There are some great additional resource books out there that I highly recommend such as books of vile darkness and the corresponding lighter side book of exalted deeds.

For the community at large, if you see characters who are supposed to be good (especially clerics and paladins) if you see behavior that is borderline or leaning increasingly towards evil deeds (or evil people doing good deeds for that matter) please report any behaviors as such to the active DM team via PM here in the forum.
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Zed
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Re: Good and Evil

Post by Zed » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:44 am

Harboring a monster that does good is not an evil deed and is not supported by any lore what so ever.

Harboring an evil entity is.

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Re: Good and Evil

Post by EnigmaticSpirit » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:28 am

Not all deities forbid lying. In fact, Skylar deliberately doesn't tell people her vows, so her enemies can't use them against her. I have them written down, though. And I've already reported myself once for breaking one of them by accident.

Also, consider that a suitably well RPed villain might be incognito, or playing down that they're a warlock or palemaster. The paladin not knowing is, and ought to be, another matter. Consider this possibility.

Half the time, it's not about the deed itself, but why it was done. By all means report, if in doubt. But be aware that there may be things you don't know.

Similarly, there are folks out there that are using their alignment to justify evil acts when they're not evil themselves. Be aware of this, also.


dragonhighlord94
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Re: Good and Evil

Post by dragonhighlord94 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:33 am

After reading this I ask are you aiming this at a particular because this is quite a coincidence that you post this.

Cerk Evermoore
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Re: Good and Evil

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:39 am

I've always been curious about how to properly portray a paladin. Would it be something like, "I am a man and I am faliable." Where you would struggle to deal with feelings of anger and to push away natural desires to take up vengeance." Or should a paladin rise to be something more like an unwavering stone of righteousness and justice.

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Re: Good and Evil

Post by Royal Blood » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:05 am

I think the most important thing is just to have an IC reason for whatever you're doing that fits the context of the general setting of the lore. If you're doing something abnormal that is okay I think so long as there is a solid reason for it.

Where I think things can get annoying is when the IC reason doesn't seem to connect like all lore says IG this makes no sense yet it is done anyways. Sometimes I feel like OOC Morals get mirrored in game and that does often bode well.

I guess the best example of this is like IG "racism" like the races have common traits that are only rarely broken. Elves hate drow, gnolls are born from devil's, Kobolds will eat your first born child and goblons will make stew out of your toes. That is lore reality so being hostile to creatures of those races isn't bad, it's entirely logical.
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Re: Good and Evil

Post by Vrass » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:09 am

My character understands good and evil full well, he simply rejects both entirely and goes his own way instead. Because that's how he rolls. What other beings think of that be they mortals or even deities is irrelevant.
Last edited by Vrass on Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Good and Evil

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:12 am

Cerk Evermoore wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:39 am
I've always been curious about how to properly portray a paladin. Would it be something like, "I am a man and I am faliable." Where you would struggle to deal with feelings of anger and to push away natural desires to take up vengeance." Or should a paladin rise to be something more like an unwavering stone of righteousness and justice.
IMO, which is based on RAW, the fallible man is a fighter, or perhaps a divine champion (CoT, on this server).

To be a paladin is a divine calling granted because the paladin is expected to be that unfaltering paragon of virtue, most especially when it is difficult to be so. Some falter- some atone- some fall - and some never rise to the call at all. It is true that the paladin is not perfect - no mortal can hope to be! But in upholding specific standards (those of their deity as well as those of their knightly vows), a paladin must be, or they are no paladin.

The spell atonement exists to address the fact that these paragons of virtue will sometimes face impossible situations- which may often send them off on a seemingly more impossible situation that will often prove to be a test of faith to see if the spark for the calling still burns or if the impossible situation extinguished it.

It's a deep and rewarding avenue, but does admittedly lose its potential and appeal when the Morally Absolute world of Forgotten Realms is overshadowed by the ideas of modern Moral Relativism.

I don't think this was targeted at any one individual - I have lamented the tendency for Moral Relativism in the past. It makes trying to play a paragon of virtue tiring not because upholding a virtuous ideal as a holy knight IS, in fact, a difficult task to undertake the RP of, but because sometimes it seems like no one understands that their circumstances never make creating a vampire or summoning a demon anything less than an Evil action.

One action doesn't define all of a person, but for the purposes of the discussion, yes the universe keeps score, and yes, when you summoned that demon right there, you got a big fat E for Evil on your permanent record. It doesn't matter if you used that demon to save a kitten from a burning house.

And every time you grant mercy or bring succor to the defeated or the unfortunate, you get a big fat G for Good - even if later on that person you showed mercy to burns down a house with a kitten in it- you just might have to build them a new house and not show mercy to that individual next time.
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Re: Good and Evil

Post by Dagonlives » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:48 am

Paladins are just really badly done in Dungeons and Dragons to be frank. They are like this exceedingly odd mix of knightly/martial honor combined with victorian era inner virtue. (two concepts which don't mix very well, like oil an water.) I just play them like Saint George, Sir Gaiwain, or other historical examples of heroic knights and call it a day.
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Re: Good and Evil

Post by -XXX- » Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:48 am

The paladin paradigm is essentially an atrocity as far as character writing is concerned.

The foundation of any good character arc is CHANGE. The premise of the paladin concept is far too RIGID to allow for any change or character development. Their alignment is set in stone, their values are set in stone, they are predetermined to conform to expectations and predictability.

To make things even worse, the repercussions of any deviation from the cookie-cutter "paladiness" are so extreme and dire (removal of all paladin levels), that as a rule of the thumb the DMs are quite reluctant to intervene in any but the most extreme instances.

As a result, there is virtually no downside to playing a paladin - they get to do what they want and get to get away with it, all while keeping all the perks and advantages of the class.
Honestly, I don't even blame the players who choose to play the class for this very reason. On the other hand, I can't ascribe the outcome to a DM failure either, because they simply can't provide the constant oversight that the paladin class requires the way it's meant to be during a PnP session.


TL;DR : the paladin class does work in a PW. Nor do any other alignment restricted classes IMO, because alignment is supposed to reflect a character's actions and should be a flexible and an adjustable variable rather than something constant that determines every fiber of the character's being.

Alignment should be the result of a character's actions and choices, not the way around.

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Re: Good and Evil

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sat Jan 05, 2019 12:20 pm

This Thread isn't going to go good places. It comes up occasionally and generally leads to various calls of 'Ur Doing It Wrong!' For that reason after this post I'll be locking this.

So I'll cover some quick points that as a DM I care about.

1) If you see a Paladin acting in a very unpaladin way, do report it. We'll deal with it. Don't take it to the player, because more often than not, they will find it offensive and upsetting.

2) We're playing characters, not archetypes. We have standards yes, especialy standards to which the game world as a whole operates (Monsterous races will always be treated so, Undead are generally Bad, Warlocks make their pact of their own volition, ect) but at the same time, we want to give characters, all characters, some breathing room. Some ability to add their own twists to concepts. Yes, if your Paladin goes around snogging drow, swinging the heads of children around, burning orphanages, and talking about their latest Demon summoning debarkle, we'll get involved. But I'd much rather a set of imperfect, fumbling, slightly dissagreeing, passionate, interesting, misguided humanistic characters who face conflict in different ways, who face the challenges of belief, morality and faith from different angles than a lot of armour plated robots.
Basicaly - although the alignment system does exist, and should be followed to a degree, I find rp much more interesting when it's shades of human (or elven, or whatever) morality, interesting conflict, personality ect than 'White Hat Vs Black Hat.' Paladins can be flawed, often it's more interesting if they are IMO. So long as they're not utterly broken.

3) The problem with the alignment system, is that yes, in DND it is Objective, but in real life it is Subjective. And what we judge it on, is Real Life. No set of 'rules' we can make for paladins will cover absolutly all areas and situations, and it is entirely unfair that we could possibly force a character deletion on a player, for reasons outside of their control. Hell it's not even as if the DM team will always agree on what exactly is 'good' aligned, and frankly I've better things to do than follow around each individual Paladin and make judgement calls on their every tiny act.


TL;DR: Don't sweat it too much. Play a good character and try to keep them at least roughly within their alignment spectrum. Don't worry too much about other peoples alignment, unless you feel it is terrifically out of bounds, and if so - report to us.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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