Haks/Mods - Rollout & Expectations

[Dalek Caan]

What about stuff like feat or spell descriptions? I have no clue about haks but... that kinda seems like something that certainly takes a lot of time to go through, but fairly easy to implement. I'd love that!

I'm not an animator but I can certainly produce some neat custom sounds and stuff. I know my way around Maya (and probably Blender, if I take a little time to get used to it), so I can also work on models, if needed

[TimeAdept]

I'm not too hard up on spell descriptions and such changing. You just need to redo them every single time there's a new update, it's more bureaucracy in getting the work done.

[flower]

Too much work which could be put elsewhere and as soon as guy doing updates falls out, it gets obsolete...

[MissEvelyn]

If you remove Discipline, you better replace it with the actual D&D mechanics:

The discipline skill does not exist in pen and paper D&D. Instead, special attacks are opposed by non-skill checks. For example, in pen and paper, disarm is opposed by an attack roll, and the analogies to knockdown (trip and overrun) are opposed by strength checks. While discipline is working as intended by BioWare, there has been debate over whether or not it is a good addition to the game.

I don't see it happen as it would cause a huge headache for everyone. If it did happen, however? I'd wholeheartedly welcome it. By the words of a certain someone, "It's a toxic mechanic".

On another note, I think what nym is implying is that they wish RP was built around storytelling rather than the cookie-cutter builds there's so much emphasis and focus on. The fact that every build has to have UMD and Discipline means taking away two other potential skills that a player character could focus in but doesn't because it's not optimal. And, to a certain degree, not optimal equals not fun. I don't necessarily agree with that, but I can see why people feel that way.
And in that way, characters become build-clones of each other.

Adding more classes, however, could stir that pot and introduce more paths and ways for characters to feel valid and optimal.

[TimeAdept]

Can't wait for dex classes to get erased from the map as full BAB WMs with disarm and KD become the only viable build due to high STR high AB.

[DM Symphony]

Wow guys, one day later and the boss's custom content thread ends up as another weaponmaster balance topic? Can't you make a "how haks can ruin our combat balance" thread in Builds & Mechanics?

[Ebonstar]

If you remove Discipline, you better replace it with the actual D&D mechanics:

The discipline skill does not exist in pen and paper D&D. Instead, special attacks are opposed by non-skill checks. For example, in pen and paper, disarm is opposed by an attack roll, and the analogies to knockdown (trip and overrun) are opposed by strength checks. While discipline is working as intended by BioWare, there has been debate over whether or not it is a good addition to the game.

I don't see it happen as it would cause a huge headache for everyone. If it did happen, however? I'd wholeheartedly welcome it. By the words of a certain someone, "It's a toxic mechanic".

On another note, I think what nym is implying is that they wish RP was built around storytelling rather than the cookie-cutter builds there's so much emphasis and focus on. The fact that every build has to have UMD and Discipline means taking away two other potential skills that a player character could focus in but doesn't because it's not optimal. And, to a certain degree, not optimal equals not fun. I don't necessarily agree with that, but I can see why people feel that way.
And in that way, characters become build-clones of each other.

Adding more classes, however, could stir that pot and introduce more paths and ways for characters to feel valid and optimal.

haks will allow for the real classes and eliminate skill dumps and umd for the masses

[sad_zav]

"I want to rp that I can't get knocked down instead of training in it"

[Invader_Nym]

If you remove Discipline, you better replace it with the actual D&D mechanics:

The discipline skill does not exist in pen and paper D&D. Instead, special attacks are opposed by non-skill checks. For example, in pen and paper, disarm is opposed by an attack roll, and the analogies to knockdown (trip and overrun) are opposed by strength checks. While discipline is working as intended by BioWare, there has been debate over whether or not it is a good addition to the game.

I don't see it happen as it would cause a huge headache for everyone. If it did happen, however? I'd wholeheartedly welcome it. By the words of a certain someone, "It's a toxic mechanic".

On another note, I think what nym is implying is that they wish RP was built around storytelling rather than the cookie-cutter builds there's so much emphasis and focus on. The fact that every build has to have UMD and Discipline means taking away two other potential skills that a player character could focus in but doesn't because it's not optimal. And, to a certain degree, not optimal equals not fun. I don't necessarily agree with that, but I can see why people feel that way.
And in that way, characters become build-clones of each other.

Adding more classes, however, could stir that pot and introduce more paths and ways for characters to feel valid and optimal.

My position has always been that these 'special maneuvers' are implied by the regular attack round. I mean, I'd always be trying to disarm, knockdown, bash, quivering-palm ect my opponent.

Yeah, what I was trying to get, and perhaps I didn't do the best job at it, was that we really take the burden off the player to be inventive when we reduce every element of a character to some sort of game mechanic. Alignment is a good example of this. Now you don't even need to think about what a /person/ would do in a situation. You can instead just ask "What would a lawful good person do?" People don't fit into neat little boxes like that; alignment is just a microcosm of the whole idea of having canned, pre-packaged characters.

That's a bit of a tangent from what we were talking about with the classes. We already have around thirty classes. What could we possibly be missing?

[Invader_Nym]

"I want to rp that I can't get knocked down instead of training in it"

"I want to be able to knock people over, over and over again, and have them never learn or adapt, or anticipate the attack is coming, because that's super plausible and realistic and thats how fights go in real life. when you use the same maneuver over and over again on the same opponent its always as effective as the first time."

[sad_zav]

"Yes so let me get some training in it because there's nothing in a wizard's curriculum that teaches me how to be better vs this"

stop trying to ruin the game

[magistrasa]

I think different magic staff models and color options would be cool. Can we talk about that? How about rideable Rothé for underdarkers, or potentially making them temporary pack mule companions? That's fun, right??? How about we talk about that?????

[sexy and brooding dark lord]

I think HAKs for mule packs are not needed. Just make rothe henchmans avaible.

[Cerk Evermoore]

Moving ships woooooooooo

[Invader_Nym]

"Yes so let me get some training in it because there's nothing in a wizard's curriculum that teaches me how to be better vs this"

stop trying to ruin the game

Discipline is an annoying NWN affectation that itself ruins the game. I'm not sure what's so implausible about a super-genius with a 45 intelligence recognizing that their opponent is using the same maneuver over and over again. I also find the way you put everything in pithy little quotes like that really catty and unlikable.

[The Incredulous Bulk]

I think removing discipline is a very, very bad idea. It has taken years for the server to reach the level of balance it currently has, and a change like this would fundamentally wreck that.

[Cerk Evermoore]

This thread is being derailed. Please take your argument somewhere else.

[triaddraykin]

I love you guys, but please: While this is a thread about what people want from the potential of haks, it's not a thread about why the wants may or may not be right or wrong. Let's keep it to as if we responding to Irongron himself, which, as a reminder, was:

Any outstanding questions?

I guess this is my biggest question to the playerbase on the subject of HAKS right now. I have explained above why I feel establishing a 'standard' is important, but I can see that there are also cases where players are better left to decide. For stuff that does not need affect how I build the world - such as skyboxes, I think it is better to remain the choice of the player, but for others, such as radically altered creature appearances I would much prefer everyone was seeing the same thing. THe ultimate problem here is that I would essentially start taking away the agency of players in making their own aesthetic choices - many would be glad of that, or even expect it, but for others the change may be unwelcome. I'd definitely be interested in some player input on this aspect.

[Freyason]

Yo, Irongron, I'm really happy for you and I'mma let you finish, but discipline....

Bear/boar dwarf cavalry

[Memelord]

Just avoid the CEP clothing options. Or most things from CEP in general. Curate and prune everything quite thoroughly, because there's a lot of HAK packs and bundles out there which contain some genuinely awful things - like most of the CEP clothing options.

I love me some shiny new tilesets, though.

[Invader_Nym]

Can't wait for dex classes to get erased from the map as full BAB WMs with disarm and KD become the only viable build due to high STR high AB.

WM would be solved if we removed the ability for keen and improved critical to stack, which can be done, I assume, using haks. It's objectively the right call to make but I doubt it'll ever get made because of social pressure from the players.

Another way to mitigate the problem of dex-vs-str is to make a character's armor-check penalty apply to tumble, and thus the AC awarded by it. DPS'ers who want to optimize damage by going str will lose 18 points of tumble from heavy armor. I assume this could be done via haks as well.

There are pretty quick and in my opinion obvious fixes to many weird mechanical quirks of NWN that never made any sense to start with.

I'd disable haste's 'quicken-spell' features as well. Here's a level 3 spell that has the same effect as 3 epic feats and 1 heroic feat combined (quicken spell, automatic quicken spell 1,2,3). This is obviously a wild deviation from how spell-casting is supposed to work; it's a great addition if you're playing by yourself offline against npcs. It's a giant mess if you want a fair and balanced online world.


To tie this all back into the original topic of the thread, I'd use the haks first to add cosmetics that have been sorely lacking for so so long, second to fix balance issues that may have been difficult or impossible to fix previously, and then, third, to add new classes and races and bells and whistles. The extra lasses and races are fluff; they're cool to have but the server just isn't screaming for them in my opinion, and often adding a seemingly innocuous new class or race can end up being a logistical nightmare in terms of balance.

[Sockss]

Imagine suggesting things the entire server is balanced around are removed for balance.

whew boy

[Dean]

I'd personally like to see some of the new weapons out there added in like the maul, but with their appropriate feats. The version outside of CEP actually has the feats, while CEP doesn't.

New clothing/armor models, weapons, tilesets.

Also head vfxs, like the spectacles. Mmmyeah...

[Maladus]

I am most excited by the possibilities this opens up for custom new features. No longer will the devs be limited by restrictions placed on them by the engine when creating new classes, spells, feats, etc. I’m also looking forward to some new tilesets. Most of the ones I have seen that Irongron linked were mostly surface based tilesets so I hope that the Underdark gets some love too.

[MissEvelyn]

Just avoid the CEP clothing options. Or most things from CEP in general. Curate and prune everything quite thoroughly, because there's a lot of HAK packs and bundles out there which contain some genuinely awful things - like most of the CEP clothing options.

I'm in absolute agreement with this. While we can borrow inspiration from some items in the CEP, it's best to entirely stay away from that pack. It's cluttered and filled with downright ugly-textured clothing and creatures. Having played on servers in the past that relied on the CEP, I always dreaded the plethora of options where half of them were hideous and only a small handful were actually decent.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for getting new clothing styles, armors, dresses, robes, hoods (for all races), cloaks, and so on. Even weapons and shields. But it has to be done with the excellence and standard that the Arelith devs are known for, otherwise it'll quickly delve into "Yet another CEP hakpack" territory.