Can we reconsider how death works?

[Cerk Evermoore]

+1

[Invader_Nym]

PVP is a touchy issue. I was once with a group in the underdark that happened upon an elf; the group decided to cut her ears off. I doubt this player had simulated torture on his/her list of things to do that day. The problem with PVP is that quite often it's not done in good faith, which is why people are so resentful about it, and ought to be.

That we're all immortal certainly breaks immersion, but I can't think of any elegant solution that doesn't enable players to troll the shit out of eachother.

Maybe you could have it so that if you fight and lose to someone, the next time you lose to them your death penalties will be slightly more severe and long-lasting, and this will be a cummulative effect that caps at some point? This way you'll think twice about provoking them over and over.

[atm]

I will maybe chime in.

Players not afraid of death:
All living beings should be afraid of death, if you are not just because there is some "system" in place you just don't play your character well as RP. On the other hand it does not mean you will not initiate conflict in principle, most characters we play are heroes or have some rules which they will not cross - paladin will not close eyes in front of evil just because he may get hurt. In the end it ends up with common sense - lets use it more:)

Death being meaningless in sense of penalty:
To be honest this server has least xp penalty I ever played on. Just example from other one where lvl cap was soft at lvl 34 due to xp per mob changing to 1 at that level I believe there was 14k xp loss when going through light / 4k xp loss while ressed. It was very painful and unless you very ready to sacrifice it you tried to avoid death so GS was your friend. On other hand it scaled with level and penalty was not that severe for lover levels especially under lvl 20. Do we need to increase it? Maybe. However there was idea to increase it in PvP between players and scale - don't - it will bring even more salt and ooc emotions in the wound than now and will not solve anything.

[The GrumpyCat]

Maybe you could have it so that if you fight and lose to someone, the next time you lose to them your death penalties will be slightly more severe and long-lasting, and this will be a cummulative effect that caps at some point? This way you'll think twice about provoking them over and over.

I... thought that was already the case actually? As in, if you died to pvp multiple times within a period your death penalties got worse? I may be wrong though.

[Aodh Lazuli]

I will maybe chime in.

Players not afraid of death:
All living beings should be afraid of death.

Both in and out of roleplay, there are ways of thinking about death, or philosophical views, or faiths and belief systems which do not involve fear of death, and actively seek to reduce fear of death in their adherants.

Acceptance of mortality and not fearing death are very different to a blasé failure to avoid dying.

Be careful with wording, in case you accidentally dictate "the only correct way" for a character to think.

[atm]

I will maybe chime in.

Players not afraid of death:
All living beings should be afraid of death.

Both in and out of roleplay, there are ways of thinking about death, or philosophical views, or faiths and belief systems which do not involve fear of death, and actively seek to reduce fear of death in their adherants.

Acceptance of mortality and not fearing death are very different to a blasé failure to avoid dying.

Be careful with wording, in case you accidentally dictate "the only correct way" for a character to think.

I hope it was not understood as only correct way, was not my intention... I even gave example with paladin, character should be aware of consequence or may not even realize it in heat of moment however it should be with character all the time. There are people in real live who run to burning building and save kids not even realizing it in that moment and it settles afterwards. And of course we are in heroic fantasy and most of our characters are played as heroes (kudo's to those who don't - for example maid I recently met) so it changes this ratio.

[Ebonstar]

there was another server that had a mixed bag death rule that was similar to the pnp game

every character begins with 10 lives. pvp deaths are how these come into play not normal adventuring. when you die to pvp a d100 is rolled

if you are under level 10 the roll trigger doesnt happen. if over level 10 you have a 10 plus each level after as the dc you have to beat in your d100 roll
so if your level 15 you have to roll a 16 or higher

but if you roll a 15 or lower you lose one of the ten lives. the server this is from used the wail of the banshee vfx to denote a life lost.

as long as you roll higher than your level you dont lose a life. After you lose 10 lives your character there was permadead,

I would change that to the character is retired from anything other than sitting around the fire like a old storyteller, they can still rp but cannot engage in anything risky. str con and dex are reduced to 10s without able to be enhanced, while int and wis are boosted to 18, so then there would truly be elders that could teach people about the past without enforcing permadeath

this would definately make people think before doing random pvp, and make death something to be feared again while still allowing the heroes

[-XXX-]

Firstly, here are some Arelith historical facts to consider:

• The vast majority of Arelith playerbase doesn't want an enforced permadeath mechanic. This has been discussed to no end and the notion annually reemerges on the forums only to incite a heated discussion.
  The vocal minority of permanent death mechanic proponents has been thrown a bone in the form of MoD - you can experience the thrill of uncertainty at your own volition and are even granted a minor boon for it. Forcing it upon other players when they've made clear that they want nothing to do with it time and time again feels wrong however.

• Harsher death penalties are not helpful as far as this topic is concerned. There used to be harsher death penalties on Arelith, so we can assume that what we have right now is the result of trial and error - harsher death penalties with regards to PvP only lead to more drama, bigger headache for the DM and/or undesired OOC behavior (for example OOC rises have been quite common after team PvP back in the day, same as borderline excessive avoidance of anything resembling PvP even in situations where the RP might actually benefit from it).

Secondly, and more importantly, the death mechanic does not address the real issue whatsoever. The real issue being the tension that builds up between a group of players who want character death to be a big deal and a group of differently-minded players who aim to regard it more casually.
More issues arise once you acknowledge the fact that these groups are by no means exclusive - some players can get frustrated when they win a PvP encounter and their opponents just move on, but whenever they lose themselves, they have no shortage of reasons for why that outcome shouldn't be disregarded.


To sum up my own view of this matter: this is not an issue of mechanics or poorly executed PvP. It's an issue of excessive focus on winning. Winning all the time is selfish. Being selfish is not being nice. [insert Arelith 5 rules reference here]

[Cerk Evermoore]

Can't have a server where folks can freely pvp with perma death unless you want a LOT of drama involved. I've been there and done that, and while it provides a massive IRL adrenaline rush when you are in danger it can also result in a massive crash when you die. While it is fun, it doesn't exactly make for a healthy long term roleplay environment especially on an OOC level. Where folks would have their discord / steam friends hunt the blood of the person who killed them and would often result in their characters who had no IC knowledge of anything randomly killing the person for a small reason.

[Ebonstar]

Firstly, here are some Arelith historical facts to consider:

• The vast majority of Arelith playerbase doesn't want an enforced permadeath mechanic. This has been discussed to no end and the notion annually reemerges on the forums only to incite a heated discussion.
  The vocal minority of permanent death mechanic proponents has been thrown a bone in the form of MoD - you can experience the thrill of uncertainty at your own volition and are even granted a minor boon for it. Forcing it upon other players when they've made clear that they want nothing to do with it time and time again feels wrong however.

• Harsher death penalties are not helpful as far as this topic is concerned. There used to be harsher death penalties on Arelith, so we can assume that what we have right now is the result of trial and error - harsher death penalties with regards to PvP only lead to more drama, bigger headache for the DM and/or undesired OOC behavior (for example OOC rises have been quite common after team PvP back in the day, same as borderline excessive avoidance of anything resembling PvP even in situations where the RP might actually benefit from it).

Secondly, and more importantly, the death mechanic does not address the real issue whatsoever. The real issue being the tension that builds up between a group of players who want character death to be a big deal and a group of differently-minded players who aim to regard it more casually.
More issues arise once you acknowledge the fact that these groups are by no means exclusive - some players can get frustrated when they win a PvP encounter and their opponents just move on, but whenever they lose themselves, they have no shortage of reasons for why that outcome shouldn't be disregarded.


To sum up my own view of this matter: this is not an issue of mechanics or poorly executed PvP. It's an issue of excessive focus on winning. Winning all the time is selfish. Being selfish is not being nice. [insert Arelith 5 rules reference here]

um if your addressing me my idea was not permadeath but a more like pnp where dying actually takes its toll on the characters body over time

[Nitro]

I would change that to the character is retired from anything other than sitting around the fire like a old storyteller, they can still rp but cannot engage in anything risky. str con and dex are reduced to 10s without able to be enhanced, while int and wis are boosted to 18, so then there would truly be elders that could teach people about the past without enforcing permadeath

Boy, becoming useless as a fighter while nothing changes for the mage sure does sound fun and balanced.

[Hazard]

It could be as simple as rewarding people who RP death (their own and others) with higher RPR or whatever other cookies we have.

[The Rambling Midget]

It could be as simple as rewarding people who RP death (their own and others) with higher RPR or whatever other cookies we have.

Already possible. The "winner" sends a message to the DMs saying "Wow, this player did a great job of RPing their death, and was willing to sacrifice their character for the sake of the story. I think they deserve a high RPR."

And I guarantee the DMs would rather see this kind of report flooding in than the usual kind.

[EBK Cartel]

If we treat it as being returned all the time it would contradict actual D&D lore where ressurections are never given lightly. That's the reason why in the lore books characters do die and they die for good.

[The Rambling Midget]

If we treat it as being returned all the time it would contradict actual D&D lore where ressurections are never given lightly. That's the reason why in the lore books characters do die and they die for good.

You're never going to see forced permadeath here. There are other servers that do that.

Arelith is its own entity, separate from the restrictions of D&D lore.

Books are written to tell one story. This is a place for everyone to tell their own story, within reasonable boundaries.

Death and resurrection are sometimes taken lightly by inexperienced or selfish individuals, but not by the community as a whole. Those who cause problems by taking a lackadaisical approach toward death and resurrection can be persuaded to take a more serious approach, if necessary.

[DM Atropos]

It could be as simple as rewarding people who RP death (their own and others) with higher RPR or whatever other cookies we have.

Already possible. The "winner" sends a message to the DMs saying "Wow, this player did a great job of RPing their death, and was willing to sacrifice their character for the sake of the story. I think they deserve a high RPR."

And I guarantee the DMs would rather see this kind of report flooding in than the usual kind.

These are, for the record, our absolute favourite reports, and we can never see too many of them.