Can we reconsider how death works?

[EBK Cartel]

So, it came to my mind that the way death works currently leaves pretty much any conflict to be utterly pointless. If we take ic the fact that no matter who dies - you or your enemy, both of you are going to return back to the life. Which means that any life threat or anything which would naturaly serve as a motivation for a character to do or not do some sort of action to be pointless. Thus, it turns any sort of dm events pointless to, because why would anyone bother saving the settlement from an another dragon because you can wait till it eats everybody and then go and res them back, no hells given. Or, for example, I used to play on the server where people did treat death as some sort of "annoying" stuff rather than a final blow to their story. I held an important mage as a hostage and warned her pals that if they aren't going to go for a dialogue - I will slit her throat. And they responded by simply hostiling and going for my head, knowing that if I even kill her mechanically ( which I made by the emote instead) - they can res her up. On the global scale it makes literally any sort of conflict not being worth a hassle because it doesn't matter whether you fight or not - you aren't going to achieve none. If someone comes up to you and gloats that he or she killed you 20 times in a row - it doesn't really supports any sort of an immersive story, but makes all the stuff semi-ooc interaction instead.

So, I do ask, wouldn't it be much more comfortable to consider enforcing rules to prevent such things? For example, we have player a and player b. Player A intentionally or not, makes some actions which force an encounter. Regardless on whom died during this encounter, both of players consider this situation wrapped. So, let's make this more detailed. Player A robs others on a road. Player b comes to stop him and it leads to player's A death. Player B doesn't pursue player A for the situation he killed him over already. And player A stops creating the same roleplay situation and moves on with another idea. And vice-versa if player A gets his victory, player B doesn't try to involve himself into the same situation, nor does he regain the knowledge of what's happened. This concept of a player kill would actually make death more meaningful from an ic perspective, instead of turning each encounter into the endless circle of fights.

And another solution would be a character kill. For example, player A does something really bad to the player B. Such as kidnapping member of his family. Player B pays for his family member and decides to have his vendetta. He gives fine-quality roleplay towards this and gets proofs of it in form of screenshots or other means. Then he manages to kill player A and gives a detailed pm to DM, or forum request of CK where he gives both ooc and ic explanation, shows that he prepared for it and rped his way towards death of another character. And then dm decides whether to approve this or not. If yes, character B has to -delete char and start a fresh one.

[Nitro]

And another solution would be a character kill. For example, player A does something really bad to the player B. Such as kidnapping member of his family. Player B pays for his family member and decides to have his vendetta. He gives fine-quality roleplay towards this and gets proofs of it in form of screenshots or other means. Then he manages to kill player A and gives a detailed pm to DM, or forum request of CK where he gives both ooc and ic explanation, shows that he prepared for it and rped his way towards death of another character. And then dm decides whether to approve this or not. If yes, character B has to -delete char and start a fresh one.

Please no, anyone can write a heartfelt, detailed report on their actions leading up to something. It would essentially become a means of deleting characters you don't like.

[EBK Cartel]

And another solution would be a character kill. For example, player A does something really bad to the player B. Such as kidnapping member of his family. Player B pays for his family member and decides to have his vendetta. He gives fine-quality roleplay towards this and gets proofs of it in form of screenshots or other means. Then he manages to kill player A and gives a detailed pm to DM, or forum request of CK where he gives both ooc and ic explanation, shows that he prepared for it and rped his way towards death of another character. And then dm decides whether to approve this or not. If yes, character B has to -delete char and start a fresh one.

Please no, anyone can write a heartfelt, detailed report on their actions leading up to something. It would essentially become a means of deleting characters you don't like.

It shouldn't be a "report of an pvp incident" More of a proof of a quality roleplay which eventually led to a kill. Which means that person has to show A) Solid reason to kill exactly this character. B) Interesting and detailed roleplay surrounding the hit which will make this death actually meaningful. C) Expression of his character/companions feelings and mindset.

[The GrumpyCat]

It has been the ethos of arelith for... well as long as I've ever played, that excepting the cases of MoDs, and a very, very few cases wherein a Player/character's behavior is extremely detrimental to the server, the end of a characters story is always up to the player.

Certainly inviting DMs to, on a regular basis, decide on the continued existance of characters is just inviting trouble, strife and a whole bunch of misery to all involved.

To put it bluntly - we get enough complaints about PvP as it is, making us the arbetrators of Ultimate Death in PvP would actually make me quit DMing.

Not Treating Death seroiusly is generally punishable by a low rpr. (And ok yeah, somtimes enforced MoDs, but only in very serious cases, and even then if the player learns their lesson, the MoD can be removed.)

Treating Death Seriously, and other Good Roleplay is awarded by a high RPR, which has it's own multiple benefits. Carrot rather than stick, if you will.

This suggestion is not going to happen.

[Queen Titania]

100% in agreement with Grumpycat.

Not going to happen. Not work we want to add to our plate as DMs, and it's not going to be fun for anyone.

[EBK Cartel]

Well, then could you please enlight me on how to proceed with the situation similiar to the example: "I meet player A. We get a pvp encounter. I die. I ressurect. Player A attempts to initiate pvp again on the reason that we had fight before (after 24 hours, of course). We start a fight but now he loses. Then he goes seeking to avenge his own death, since death rules only advise people to forget their latest hour before death, yet not forbid it. So it grows into endless, boring, senseless and barely deserving to be called an rp conflict. While I can and prolly will ignore player's A existance after pvp, he keeps bringing it on, thus ruining immersion.
Or, for example, I get killed once for summoning undead. Player who killed me kills me again for summoning undead. And keeps doing it over and over and over and over, gloating that he got like 20 heads of my char on his belt.

[The Rambling Midget]

You will never be allowed to force another player to RP their character the way you want them to.

You will never be allowed to decide when another player's character dies permanently.

If your character killed another, and the player didn't choose to delete after that, it means that YOU did not RP well enough to persuade them to do so.

It can be done. It has been done. But it was never done by force.

Well, then could you please enlight me on how to proceed with the situation similiar to the example: "I meet player A. We get a pvp encounter. I die. I ressurect. Player A attempts to initiate pvp again on the reason that we had fight before (after 24 hours, of course). We start a fight but now he loses. Then he goes seeking to avenge his own death, since death rules only advise people to forget their latest hour before death, yet not forbid it. So it grows into endless, boring, senseless and barely deserving to be called an rp conflict. While I can and prolly will ignore player's A existance after pvp, he keeps bringing it on, thus ruining immersion.

This almost never happens. When it does, you report it to the DMs, because it's bad RP.

[EBK Cartel]

Or, for example, I get killed once for summoning undead. Player who killed me kills me again for summoning undead. And keeps doing it over and over and over and over, gloating that he got like 20 heads of my char on his belt. Why am I having to get my roleplay forced by another's whim to pvp?

[The Rambling Midget]

Or, for example, I get killed once for summoning undead. Player who killed me kills me again for summoning undead. And keeps doing it over and over and over and over, gloating that he got like 20 heads of my char on his belt.

Then you're not being killed, because they killed you before and want to keep doing it for fun. You're being killed, because you keep summoning undead.

That's like whining that you got sent to prison again right after you were released, just because you went out and committed another crime.

And if it really is just one player griefing you, REPORT IT!

[EBK Cartel]

Isn't it kinda stupid to kill one person over and over for one thing he done once? Meaning that you actually can't icly stop someone from doing anything. Meaning that icly no action really matter which makes the whole interaction lack sense because doesn't matter what the person does - it doesn't change anything on a global scale.

[EBK Cartel]

Or, for example, I get killed once for summoning undead. Player who killed me kills me again for summoning undead. And keeps doing it over and over and over and over, gloating that he got like 20 heads of my char on his belt.

Then you're not being killed, because they killed you before and want to keep doing it for fun. You're being killed, because you keep summoning undead.

That's like whining that you got sent to prison again right after you were released, just because you went out and committed another crime.

And if it really is just one player griefing you, REPORT IT!

And, yes, I've meant that I've summoned undead ONE time. And it wasn't whining as you've kindly mentioned in an attempt to imply that the whole reason of this topic is me being "not gut" and salty. And, well, I don't think that killing someone over one action for eternity makes any sort of sense.

[Queen Titania]

Your character's sins may turn out to be something they have to carry with them for a long time.

If you can't find a resolution you are happy with, there is always the option of starting a new character and trying to be more clever about it.

Or just declaring yourself sorrowful (Your character can lie through their teeth after all), pledge service, then when strong enough...disregard everything they pledged and go right back to summoning.

It just requires being creative, not caring about dying or losing, and so on.

[EBK Cartel]

Okay. Let's put the situation another way, so it will finally stop with people assuming me making posts over simply being salty and lacking "dat pvp skillz".
I am playing a character. Another guy is trying to rob me and I get him done.
I see him another day, yell that he is a robber and kill him. Because he tried to rob me. (Of course with rp initiation and all of that).
Then I do it like 5 more times.
On the sixth time I laugh at weak foolish robber icly, show him 10 his own skulls and get a pack of my friends to get him done.
Then I go on and try to get him exiled from everywhere.
Edit: And yes, I am ignorant to all of his attempts to avoid the fight - because pvp doesn't require consent. And yes, my char might have ic reason not to believe/tolerate criminals. And since he tried to rob me even while once, but it justifies me annihilating the guy over and over for the same action, because he isn't dead.

[The GrumpyCat]

Okay. Let's put the situation another way, so it will finally stop with people assuming me making posts over simply being salty and lacking "dat pvp skillz".
I am playing a character. Another guy is trying to rob me and I get him done.
I see him another day, yell that he is a robber and kill him. Because he tried to rob me. (Of course with rp initiation and all of that).
Then I do it like 5 more times.

Then the DM's have a long, sturn talk to me about Not Being Nice, and killing characters over and over again with no respect to their fun, in a manner that's practically griefing. A talk that may include level docks, enforced MoDs, or mid to long term bans.

Then hopefully I stop being a jerk and killing some poor soul over and over again, without considering the consequences of ruining their game. And instead consider following up the conflict (if it requires following up) in a way that is fun not just for myself, but also the thief player.

Fixed your post!

[EBK Cartel]

I would like to add in a separate post that this isn't anything to do with being bitter over pvp interaction. I took a specific example. And such situations may appear all over in the game world. And our characters literally see that neither them nor anybody else can die. They will get ressed. It nullifies all impact your character can do to the world whether he is good or evil. Got some sort of John Doe running about and mass murdering people in tribute to some evil god? Okay, you killed him, he is going to do literally the same thing on the other day. You got your close relative kidnapped and being ransomed? Why pay the money - just let them kill him/her, wait till he walks the light, tells the names of those who kidnapped him, so you can kill them. Even while it doesn't make much sense to even do it. Got your throat at a knife point/being outnumbered? Who cares - I die - I walk to the light bros, no fearing death at all.

[EBK Cartel]

Okay. Let's put the situation another way, so it will finally stop with people assuming me making posts over simply being salty and lacking "dat pvp skillz".
I am playing a character. Another guy is trying to rob me and I get him done.
I see him another day, yell that he is a robber and kill him. Because he tried to rob me. (Of course with rp initiation and all of that).
Then I do it like 5 more times.

Then the DM's have a long, sturn talk to me about Not Being Nice, and killing characters over and over again with no respect to their fun, in a manner that's practically griefing. A talk that may include level docks, enforced MoDs, or mid to long term bans.

Then hopefully I stop being a jerk and killing some poor soul over and over again, without considering the consequences of ruining their game. And instead consider following up the conflict (if it requires following up) in a way that is fun not just for myself, but also the thief player.

Fixed your post!

It works quite well when it's put as a trolling of my humble person in forums. But, I bet there is a lot of gray zones in roleplay which actually allow people to get their hands clean while doing whatever hassle they want.

[The Rambling Midget]

If what you say were true, Arelith wouldn't have the tumultuous and fascinating history that it does.

You're right about one thing. If you go around just killing people with very little justification, nothing will change. You'll be ignored.

However, if that death, or even non-fatal conflict, is the culmination of a course of compelling RP, things will change. The proof is all around you in books, monuments, buildings, factions, and over a decade of being one of the most populous NWN PW servers.

[EBK Cartel]

If what you say were true, Arelith wouldn't have the tumultuous and fascinating history that it does.

You're right about one thing. If you go around just killing people with very little justification, nothing will change. You'll be ignored.

However, if that death, or even non-fatal conflict, is the culmination of a course of compelling RP, things will change. The proof is all around you in books, monuments, buildings, factions, and over a decade of being one of the most populous NWN PW servers.

It's kinda hard to ignore someone who forces you into a fight.

[The GrumpyCat]

I believe there is a server I used to play on called 'City of Arabel.' Not sure if it's on EE. But It does have a rule similar to what you describe.

https://nodebb.cityofarabel.com/topic/3 ... ling-pking

Maybe that would be more to your liking?

[LittleWeasel]

As one of the DMs pointed out earlier on the forums:

There are 15ish active DMs. There are nearly 2000 players active at each given month. DMs heavily rely on reports as they cannot be everywhere.
When something ugly happens, that does not fall within the rules (or that falls into a perceived gray zone even!), screenshot and/or give detailed character names, roughly a time stamp on when the event happened (or keeps happening) and send a report to Active DMs on the forum, or the arelith dm email. (arelith.dm@gmail.com) ...

Player reports are the eyes of the DMs when they can't see themselves. They are absolutely vital to keep the world healthy.
And yes, sometimes a report can be cleared up as a "Okay, you've only seen one side of the coin, there actually was some depth behind it, and IC clues left. Feel free to pursue IC" ... But more often than not a report requires genuine DM interference.

DMs will look at the logs, the roleplay around an event, and have talks to the players involved. First time offenders often walk away with guidance on how to deal with things better. Repeat offenders of a rule will face sterner repercussions.

That being said, we are always open to constructive feedback on how to improve the world. Death is a tricky topic and finding the right balance will always be an issue, and we'll always be happy to look at ideas. Who knows, one might just be the "Eureka, that's it!" solution.

The most important thing that has to be kept in mind when suggesting a new Death scenario:

- A character's permanent death will always! be that character's player's choice. NOT other players, not DMs, not staff (severe rule breaches, repeat offenses, severe punishment excepted. Note, the deletion of a character as punishment tends to be the very last resort, even after banning! We do not delete characters lightly, and I can think of less than four cases where this has been enforced in over 15 years, MoDespair (or the voluntary MoDestiny) non-withstanding.)

[DM Atropos]

Summoning undead is literally one of the most morally reprehensible, nearly-absolute-evil things this server allows due to our enforced PG-13 rating. If you are summoning undead on the surface (or possibly Skal, who knows some days), I promise, you are going to get A Reputation, IC. Even if you only do it once. And I say only "Nearly" because Mulhorandi do exist and they have some differing views on undeath to a point.

Now, if you are doing A Big Evil and someone kills you and you respawn, it does not protect your reputation from "Crapbaskets, this guy is freaking evil, get him!" The story doesn't end when you walk into the respawn light. Would it be nice if it did? Sometimes, yeah! Other times, no! Bring on the collaboration!

Something to think about.

[EBK Cartel]

Summoning undead is literally one of the most morally reprehensible, nearly-absolute-evil things this server allows due to our enforced PG-13 rating. If you are summoning undead on the surface (or possibly Skal, who knows some days), I promise, you are going to get A Reputation, IC. Even if you only do it once. And I say only "Nearly" because Mulhorandi do exist and they have some differing views on undeath to a point.

Now, if you are doing A Big Evil and someone kills you and you respawn, it does not protect your reputation from "Crapbaskets, this guy is freaking evil, get him!" The story doesn't end when you walk into the respawn light. Would it be nice if it did? Sometimes, yeah! Other times, no! Bring on the collaboration!

Something to think about.

Well, basically what kind of unavoidable harm can I do in a world where noone can die by summoning a skelly? I do realize that necromancy is a horrible act by itself in the original lore. Yet, within the terms of a homebrew world it doesn't have any sort of impact. If you're getting killed because you're a necromancer - is only because it gives people legitimate reason to one line corpse bash you. And amounts of anti-death magic stuff which is available to each character nullifies all the possible strenghts of the necromancy a player can get. So, it's basically taking rp flavour in exchange of being a training dummy for someone who planned their build to get pvp advantage.

[DM Atropos]

The point I was making is that if you do something OMG EVIL I'm not entirely sure why you think people would not target you if they know about it. It's an IC choice you make, with IC repercussions.

[Baron Saturday]

I can understand where this thread (and your other one) are coming from, because playing any character whose abilities give them away as evil on Arelith's surface right now is definitely HARD MODE. My own most recent attempt, a feylock, was aborted after a few months when I realized that I was effectively playing a single-player game. The knowledge that a single slip-up can result in the exposure of your character's dastardly secret and the creation of powerful enemies is exhausting, to say the least.

I think much of this stems from the lack of obvious places for morally flexible characters to congregate at in early levels, making for a very lonely experience, as your character is effectively always surrounded by potential enemies and has nowhere to let their hair down. While Sencliff could be this place, it's not quite there, mostly because getting there can be a trick unless you already know the way. Some sort of slightly altered start in Cordor might help with this. Perhaps with the Speedy office could send evil-aligned characters to a smuggler or other shady sort who tells them how to get to Sencliff, rather than the Cordor theater?

I do also want to address something real quick:

Well, basically what kind of unavoidable harm can I do in a world where noone can die by summoning a skelly? I do realize that necromancy is a horrible act by itself in the original lore. Yet, within the terms of a homebrew world it doesn't have any sort of impact. If you're getting killed because you're a necromancer - is only because it gives people legitimate reason to one line corpse bash you. And amounts of anti-death magic stuff which is available to each character nullifies all the possible strenghts of the necromancy a player can get. So, it's basically taking rp flavour in exchange of being a training dummy for someone who planned their build to get pvp advantage.

There's a few misconceptions here. Firstly, and most importantly, people can die. While it is true that many characters do return to life, the characters themselves have no way of knowing that they will continue to do so until the player chooses otherwise. If you encounter characters who refuse to treat the threat of death seriously because "lol i'll just respawn," let the DM team know.

It's also not true to say that summoning a skeleton has no impact within the terms of this homebrew setting. While there may be no in-game mechanical impact, the DM and Admin teams have explicitly stated that necromancy is just as evil as it is in the Forgotten Realms setting upon which Arelith is based, and players are expected to RP accordingly. This is one of those things where you just have to use your imagination as to why necromancy is bad, similar to imagining that the cities and towns on Arelith are much more populous than shown. To claim that summoning undead isn't really bad because there's no actual ingame effect is like saying that warlocks aren't actually evil because mechanically all they're giving up is their bard song.

Third, your suggestion that a player is repeatedly picking on your necromancer because they know they can beat you, if true, should be reported to the DM team. They want to help people have fun here, and no "legal loophole" or "gray area" exists to prevent them from having a chat with someone that may be taking their prosecution of your necromancer too far.

Lastly, I will note that necromancy is actually reasonably strong on Arelith, especially at later levels when you've got the vampire trio. If you're ever in need of advice on how to make your necromancer a bit stronger, stop by the Builds & Mechanics forum.

[The Kriv]

Well, basically what kind of unavoidable harm can I do in a world where no one can die by summoning a skelly? I do realize that a necromancy is a horrible act by itself in the original lore. Yet, within the terms of a homebrew world, it doesn't have any sort of impact. If you're getting killed because you're a necromancer - is only because it gives people legitimate reason to one line corpse bash you. And amounts of anti-death magic stuff which is available to each character nullifies all the possible strengths of the necromancy a player can get. So, it's basically taking rp flavor in exchange of being a training dummy for someone who planned their build to get pvp advantage.

Ebk,

so, something I think needs saying (or in my case, re-saying ) That D&D is by nature a heroic game. It was conceived and created and developed so that people could take on the roles of heroes and go fight monsters... together. The alignment axis of good-evil / law-chaos was created to plot your character in the game to help you (the player) judge how you ought to play the reactions of the character you are navigating through this "make-believe world" experience, and help the DM to decide how NPC's and the like not only behave, themselves but will react to the decisions you make for your character. [insert "duh" expression here]

The setting/world order under which the game is built, often gets painted with one of those "shades of grey" brushes, but honestly, it is a lot more black and white than a lot of people treat it. Quite a lot of things are "just so" in a fantasy genre. It has to be this way because it is a Fantasy-D&D Genre. This is not "modern-day simulation game" where morality to good and evil are all these shades of grey. The fantasy/magic/medieval setting gets muddied when you try to bring modern sentiment and 21st-century belief structures into play. Necromancy is bad, mmkay? Elves think Dwarves are idiots. Dwarves think Elves are arrogant arses. "Good" Drow are make-believe. Warlocks and pirates need swing by the neck until dead. And most of all... NPC-guards never show up on-time, or ever to "save the day", they ALWAYS show up after the fact, confiscate everything, and claim credit for keeping the peace. That's just the way the world works. *winky-winky*

And Death as a game-mechanic, however, needs tremendous suspension of disbelief. And everyone needs to make peace with it, and decide for themselves how to justify why characters never really 'die.' And you do too. Summoning a skeleton seems harmless to a player, and is actually very beneficial to adventuring because they're resistant to slashing and piercing, they don't eat much, and they don't complain (some of them don't even have mouths!) -but inject that into a purely RP scenario of fantasy-D&D and you have a capital crime!

RE: Character DEATH
For me, I choose to always treat the situation in this way:
"Yes, I was killed. BUT, my goddess has decided my time has not yet come, and she requires more of me before I can achieve the final rest. And as such, she has sent my spirit back to continue on until she decides it is time for me to return to her for good."

yes, My character perished. his corpse might have been eaten by owlbears. Maybe his head was put on a spike by the goblin queen (but not Spets' !! She would never do that!) For whatever reason, my character was sent back, and very likely could encounter his own slain corpse lying in the road... I could run into your character that pwned him in a fight five times straight, and might throw five of his own skulls at him. It all could happen.. because that's the world yours and my characters exist in.

We have an obligation to each other as co-players to play the roles of our characters as best we can to fit into the rules of the world that has been laid out before us. I think your asking these questions, EBK, is a good thing, because you are questioning the nature of things, and questioning shouldn't ever be discouraged... (unless those questions come from Hinn, in which case we should give them a mutton chop and tell them to settle down, because we all know hinn questions are intrinsically silly. AMIRIGHT???!!??)

**hands out mutton to all the hinn reading this entry**