Nevrus' Awful Guide to the Wacky World of Alignment

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Nevrus' Awful Guide to the Wacky World of Alignment

Post by Nevrus » Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:03 am

In an effort to prove that regardless of my characters, my own wis score is pitiable, I'm looking at this can of worms, and busting it the heck open. WORMS EVERYWHERE!

Preliminary FAQ:
Nevrus, no one asked for this and this wasn't really a debate!
I know, okay!? I just feel like it!

Nevrus, what you're saying is dumb and I don't like it!
Good, that means you're probably smarter than I am. This is what I personally ascribe to, and maybe it will help you characterize, maybe it'll push you to prove the opposite? Maybe it'll help you understand this pretty nebulous concept better!

Nevrus, are you saying I'm playing my character wrong if I don't match up with this?
Heck no! I could be dead wrong on everything, and I'm sure there will be a few dozen essays explaining exactly why within 48 hours! Having characters disagree about ways of doing the same thing creates conflict, and conflict is the essence of storytelling!

Introduction:
Alignment is a system that generally categorizes sentient creatures into nine descriptors. Sentient in this case means 'capable of making some kind of informed decision about right and wrong.' Plants, animals, and constructs don't have alignment- they just do their thing, unless something magical gives them that spark of sentience, which happens all the time!

Alignment should be taken as something descriptive, not prescriptive, when it comes to most surface-dwelling demi-humans. They aren't generally born with a particularly strong pull towards a certain nature, and upbringing and their own worldview means they can usually be of any alignment, even if there's racial tendencies towards certain ones. Alignment describes how that character currently feels about themselves, the world, and right and wrong, even if that means they view 'wrong' as fundamentally 'right.'

Where it should be generally viewed as 'prescriptive' is when it comes to monsters, especially outsiders. They generally have natures that tend toward a certain alignment, and in the case of outsiders, it could be considered that they're literally MADE out of the concept of that alignment. Note that I said 'generally,' as exceptions to everything do exist - Planescape: Torment had a Lawful Neutral succubus - but these are generally extreme outliers. Drow have a proclivity towards cruelty they're born with and that gets nurtured by their society. Similar things can be said for most monstrous humanoids. They're extensions of their evil gods, and part of their soul is always pulled towards that (note: this is probably wrong but it's how I like to interpret it as a rational explanation that the average surfacer would believe).

The Scale:
This is where I'm going to lose a lot of people, thanks for making it this far!
Just like the NWN alignment system, I think alignment is best viewed as a scale of 0-100 on two axes. ALMOST NO CHARACTER WILL EVER BE AT THE EXTREME END OF EITHER. In fact, the closer you get to that extreme end, the more likely you are to not fit into any kind of society, even an evil one, and the more insane your character's viewpoint really becomes if they live that principle. This should also not be taken as a general measure of belief; most people fail to perfectly live up to their own standards of doing things absolutely right. It should be taken as a measure of the actions they actually commit themselves to.

What are the axes I use?

Two questions:
Do the ends justify the means?
Who do you want to help?

Lawful-Chaotic: Process vs Ends
Lawful believes in order, rules, society, and collectivism. They actively want to work with others, be a part of something larger. They believe the system is best, whether it's best for the weak or best for themselves, and when they see a weakness in that system, they seek to correct it to put everything in place. Lawful is defined by a need for control, whether direct or indirect, benevolent or malevolent. Whether that takes the form of controlling others or allowing others to control them to keep things stable, they want to use the machine to do what the machine's meant to do by being a cog in it.

Chaotic believes in freedom, self-fulfillment, individuality, and doing things their way. They are perfectly fine completely alone, and engage in larger structures only as it fancies them. They think if everyone was just allowed to do what they wanted, everything would more or less work itself out, even if it would require a bit of struggle to get there. Chaotic is defined by a need for freedom, whether it's bringing freedom to others or being free to engage in their own dark desires without retribution. They don't want the machine of order getting in between them and getting done what they want to get done.

Answers to the question 'Do the ends justify the means?' at various points in the scale:
110 (Ultra Lawful): Absolutely not, ever, and those who do think that should be destroyed so people will follow the rules.
100 (Very Lawful): I would never resort to lying, cheating, or stealing to get what I wanted. If I had to do that, it wouldn't be worth what I gained.
80 (Lawful): In some 'extreme' cases it might be justified, but it should be avoided if at all possible so that it doesn't become the norm.
50 (Neutral): Sometimes? Rules are fine and all, but if they really get in the way, I'm not breaking my back to follow them.
20 (Chaotic): Usually! There are some lines I wouldn't cross but if it works out the way I want in the end, who cares?
0 (Very Chaotic): Always! The result's all that matters, and it's stupid to limit your options to get there. Just deal with the consequences later, or run away from them! That's dealing with them!
-10 (Ultra Chaotic): The idea that someone would tell me what to do is so offensive that I do the opposite just to spite them. Rules are made to be broken, and I take them as a challenge to do so.

Good-Evil: Others vs Self
Good believes in helping others, the sanctity of life, self-sacrifice, and overcoming evil within and without. They define themselves by their aims to improve the situation of other people, whether that's by nurturing them, protecting them, or going out of their way to destroy things that would threaten them. They're willing to pay prices to do this because they put the well-being of others ahead of themselves. They believe that if everyone could be a little more selfless everyone would be safe and happy.

Evil believes in enriching themselves, the expendability of life, using others for their own ends, and killing weakness within and without. They define themselves by their aims to hurt others, even if they gain nothing out of it. They don't feel satisfied unless someone else suffered for them to get what they want. They're only willing to pay the price of things they don't value, such as family members, body parts they don't need, or perhaps their own abyss-bound soul. They believe that if they can destroy all their opposition they can truly have what they're after.

Answers to the question 'Who do you want to help?' at various points on the scale:
110 (Ultra Good): I can't stop myself from helping others. I'm missing all my limbs and half my organs and I live penniless on the street because I've given so much of myself to those in need.
100 (Very Good): I want to help others as much as I can. I'll give anything I can spare, or even what I can't if it's truly necessary, and I'd die to protect an innocent.
80 (Good): I find helping others fulfilling. I want to leave people in a better place than when I found them, but I need to maintain my own well-being to do that effectively.
50 (Neutral): I'll help who I feel like when I feel like it. My friends? Sure. My enemies? If it would be funny. That necromancer down the street smells awful and gives me the heebie jeebies but I can't argue with the yardwork that skeleton does.
20 (Evil): I'll help others if it advances my own lust for power. My minions/master/cult/clan are worthy of this honor; all others are merely enemies we haven't killed yet.
0 (Very Evil): I desecrate temples for fun. I schedule time to torture after breakfast every day. Anyone who thinks I'm helping them is a fool and surely won't anticipate my absolute betrayal to gain ultimate power.
-10 (Ultra Evil): When I see an adorable halfling I just have to enslave and torture them, and I'll burn their whole village down to get my hands on them! Let's see how long it is before they take their own life, then I'll make them into a zombie! Or maybe resurrect them to do it again!

The Nine Alignments In This Lens:
Lawful Good: Doing Right the Right Way
An orderly society protects those who need protection and nurtures those who need nurturing. The weak should be helped to become strong, and crime only hurts them. A life of honor is a life well lived, and people should be judged by their actions alone.

Neutral Good: Doing Right the Best Way Possible
People should aspire to help one another, even if it takes some personal sacrifice. Some order is acceptable but too much becomes a problem in its own way. The list of rules should be short. A life spent helping others is a life well lived, and people should be judged by what choices they make.

Chaotic Good: Doing Right Your Own Way
Problems need to be solved even if you need to get your hands dirty to do it. The important thing is that people are free and happy, and that rich guy's not going to miss that gold so much anyhow. A life helping those who'd fall through the cracks is a life well lived, and people should be judged by what they accomplish.

Lawful Neutral: The System Works
Stability is more important than making sure everyone is happy, because if they were getting robbed and murdered every day, they wouldn't be happy anyway. I personally benefit from the system, because it lets me get by and keeps trouble away, and I know others do too. As long as things are orderly it doesn't matter if it's perfect. People have the opportunity to climb up, after all. A life spent fitting the mold, or changing the mold to be more stable, is a life well lived, and people should be judged by how well they integrate with the group and follow their expectations.

True Neutral 1: Whatever Works
People just want to get by and they'll take whatever works to do it. I'm worried about myself and my own, and if I have to bend the rules here and there to get by, it's no skin off my back. I'm fine just being alive and trying to do a bit better. I think if I'm happy my life's been well lived, and people should by judged by how well they get by without stomping on people.

True Neutral 2: The Pragmatist
Good, evil, law, chaos: These are all just tools to be used when necessary. Goals should be accomplished, and whatever's convenient for getting that done is fair game, though I have little stake in the affairs of others. Because I'm not overly committed to any one philosophy, I can see the benefits and faults of all of them, and take what I like and ignore what I don't. A life well lived is one where I accomplish what I'm after without making too many enemies, and people should be judged by their rationality, not for pretending to be like an outsider.

Chaotic Neutral: Toss the System
I'm not like those idiots that push paperwork and dig ditches. I do what I want, when I want it, because I want to. I don't particularly like seeing people suffer, but sometimes 'unfortunate accidents' are a riot. I prefer to avoid the law unless I'm rubbing it in their faces how dumb they are for thinking they could control me with papers and guards. I consider a life well lived one where I don't let others stop me from doing what I want. People should be judged by how independent they are.

Lawful Evil: You Work for Me
The rules protect my power, whatever form it takes, and if twisted just so, destroy my enemies. I'll climb a ladder of corpses to rule, and my rule shall be benevolent to my friends and terrible to my enemies. Those who think the rules protect themselves and not me are mistaken. Those who won't follow those rules are the true threat to my rise, and should be dealt with in a way that puts fear in the hearts of their ilk. A life well lived is one where my word is law and my whim is law. People should be judged by their ability to abuse the presumptions of the foolish for their own power.

Neutral Evil: I Work for Me
Everything I do is to advance my own well-being, and I delight in betrayal and murder. I'll pretend to care about the rules until it's inconvenient, and then I'll kill the fool who thought I was following along. People come to me to get things done because I can walk a few different worlds, most of them black and bloody, and I usually deliver as long as I get more in return. A life well lived is one where I get away with it, and people should be judged by how well they do for themselves and how much they free themselves from any idea of pitiful self-righteousness.

Chaotic Evil: You Die for My Amusement
With this one life I shall end many, and it shall be glorious, and their bodies shall taste like chicken as I devour them! The suffering of others is its own reward, and I love bringing about as much of it as possible. I'm the only thing in the entire multiverse that matters and everyone else is free game to torment, even those I feel some attachment to- especially them, actually! The evil society I live in is filled with monsters and murderers, and any idea that there's order is just a game we're all playing because it's convenient, but we all know deep down that there will be one king ruling many corpses. And then I'll kill that king, and sell the crown, then kill the buyer, because kings are for killing! A life well lived is one that brings as much pain as possible using every means available, and the only thing someone should be judged by is their might, because if they're weak, I'll just kill them and take their stuff.

A note on the scale:
IT IS A SCALE! Everyone falls somewhere on those two lines, and some times they'll cusp crossing over without quite going all the way there. This is normal. That's why in the Great Wheel there's planes between the non-TN alignments, because usually characters have their own tendencies that deviate from the absolute epitome of the eight outer alignments.

I hope this was at least interesting to read! I know not what will come of this but I had fun writing it. Now to go be a pirate, arrr!
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Re: Nevrus' Awful Guide to the Wacky World of Alignment

Post by cptcuddlepants » Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:11 am

Enjoyable write-up! I like reading other people's thoughts and opinions on the alignment system and the intricacies of the nine alignments.

What are your thoughts on the extremes of law/chaos and good/evil? I usually don't see articles about alignments discuss what happens when someone goes too far on an alignment axis - which would be the 110s and -10s on your scale.
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Re: Nevrus' Awful Guide to the Wacky World of Alignment

Post by Artenides » Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:14 am

It was nice to read this, thank you! Lawful evil and neutral evil definitions were my favs!
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Re: Nevrus' Awful Guide to the Wacky World of Alignment

Post by Nevrus » Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:31 am

I think hitting the Ultras makes your character a massive problem for others. (Not that this is a bad thing)

Ultra Lawful could be considered a militant bureaucrat, cracking down on every single minor infraction and actively antagonizing everyone not sitting firmly at 100 Lawful. That's a problem for a lot of people that have to deal with it.

Ultra Chaotic could be considered an absolute wanton criminal, tying up all the law systems in their reckless crusade to cause problems. They seek to tear order itself apart because they find not only no value but offense in it.

Ultra Evil is obviously the "I'm going to summon the stillborn god Atropus from the depths of space to eradicate all life on the planet because I want to." Pick any suicidal world-ender plot, you've got your Ultra-Evil.

Ultra Good, on the other hand, would best be summed up by Ilmater. Helpful to others to the point of self-destruction. This is a problem for people that like them because seeing someone genuinely caring destroy themselves needlessly in pursuit of helping is tragic in its own right. I could imagine this would be an interesting, if exceptionally dark and difficult, character to play. Maybe they have super low self-esteem and think the world isn't losing much by losing themselves? Maybe they have an extreme martyr complex that could be considered a mental health issue? Maybe they're actually suicidal and it's a form of self-harm to regulate.

Taking anything to an extreme beyond an extreme is a wave-making event, so if anyone tries this insanity, expect to be the antagonist... Even if you're ultra-good, because your presence initiates change in others when they see this taken to an extent, which is the definition of antagonist.

If you want to play something that doesn't need to be stopped, don't touch any of these ultras! Also, please don't actually succeed at Ultra-Evil, it'll end the server and it's still getting better every day!
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Re: Nevrus' Awful Guide to the Wacky World of Alignment

Post by Zed » Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:29 am

I would love to see your write up, and opinions on a character that is "True evil" and where you think that would fall on your scale.

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Re: Nevrus' Awful Guide to the Wacky World of Alignment

Post by Irongron » Wed Sep 05, 2018 10:07 am

A fun read, for sure.

I've never been fond of the importance AD&D places on alignment. I can save a lot of time writing up a long reflection on it by simply saying this:

It's generally the opposite of what it should be - Actions shouldn't be driven by character alignment, but alignment by character actions. Finding the choices you've made has put you in the orbit of a certain demon or faith would be a fun process, having that already set largely in stone the moment you begin your character isn't.

Unfortunately in the context of PW people will inevitably 'game' the system, indeed this is why in game actions that shifted alignment were removed quite some years ago.

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Re: Nevrus' Awful Guide to the Wacky World of Alignment

Post by Vrass » Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:44 pm

Pragmatic Neutral is the way to go. Everything has its uses and nothing is any better or worse then the other. All other alignments are inferior.

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Re: Nevrus' Awful Guide to the Wacky World of Alignment

Post by Dr. B » Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:39 pm

While I appreciate the effort the author put into this, I disagree with much of it and hope neither the DMs nor players will rely on it when judging whether the actions of certain characters fit into certain alignments. (This is generally how I feel about alignment guides, or attempts to explain the alignments; for my part, I've never observed much of a need for them.)

Most of the alignments have several sub-tropes, of which the author canvassed only one for each of them (e.g., many low-level goons who do the gruntwork for the Big Bad can be lawful evil; consider a guild of assassins that follow a strict code and set of traditions). Also, I disagree strongly with the proposal that being fully at the end of either alignment scale isn't possible or desirable, or that such a character could not exist in society: a character who is maximally good need not give up everything they own to the point of not being able to do any more good, for instance (although a maximally good character with very low wisdom might do that). The idea that law is about control and chaos is about freedom actually seems to run into lots of counter-examples (some chaotic evil people are very controlling; some lawful people believe the law should respect personal freedom).

I also don't think alignment is purely descriptive, but also has prescriptive elements; it's a reflection of your character's dispositions, but those dispositions also give a description of who your character is and thus how to play them, where a significant deviation from their usual behavior typically marks a change in their alignment and thus a change in how you should play them thenceforth. Note, also, that the axes between law and chaos, good and evil, are known in-universe in FR, and some characters, especially Abyssalists and Diabolists, are philosophically devoted to them. In that regard, they may very much be prescriptive.

there are further points of disagreement, but you get the idea. I do appreciate the author's enthusiasm for this topic though.

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Re: Nevrus' Awful Guide to the Wacky World of Alignment

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:34 am

Best part of faerun is how thebgods shows multiole examples of every alignment.
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Re: Nevrus' Awful Guide to the Wacky World of Alignment

Post by triaddraykin » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:21 am

Considering I'm currently working a 3-part lecture series on the 4 elemental and 8 axiomatic planes, this was definitely an interesting read, and thank you for writing it!
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