Why are we not allowed to talk about the server on the forums?

[Mastersir3]

With Sargoth's post being locked for what I can only discern to be an attempt to disallow any sort of negative feedback on the server, I've been informed that he's had to turn to fielding many responses from other concerned parties in private messages. Why is this the case? Why are we not allowed to have a constructive discourse on the forums regarding overall trends in player conduct, in an attempt to better the server as a whole?
Everyone in the community understands that being a DM is very taxing and time consuming, but I'm curious as to why the burden of communication relies on the playerbase to send multiple messages to have a chance at eliciting a response from the DM team. I know of countless reports of illegal PvP, token applications, or other situations that have gone unanswered for months. Naturally, players become frustrated with this and it only serves to promote vigilante actions against other players or to turn to the open forums to scare the DM team into giving them a response. I feel that if appropriate action cannot be taken in a timely fashion, then there is no reason to disallow players to openly discuss things on the forums. If the playerbase is not mature enough to handle that, then I feel this server really has lost it's touch.
With the expectation that this thread will be locked and dismissed, I'd like to suggest that perhaps there could be a place to discuss items such as this one on the forums, where non-specific matters pertaining to server quality could be talked about in a grown up way. Thank you.

[Angery]

I do feel as though we need a place to talk about major problems with each other. When the forum posts are locked it means no meaningful discussion can be had between us. I rather like the idea and feel like the server could be capable of holding something like this without flaming each other

[Mastersir3]

Also, I feel it would be a sensible solution to allow a place where these discussions can be moderated by the forums and kept out of discord, which is something the DM team has expressed in the past it makes efforts to curtail.

[Nitro]

I mean, it's not like actual feedback is silenced and locked away. Just look in the feedback section for instance where we have literally thousands of threads for feedback on various aspects of the server.

But the topic you used as example was extremely nonconstructive. It dealt with a single specific circumstance and how players dealt with that and then spiraled off into some vague complaints about DM conduct. Had it been entirely about a civilized discussion on how the DM team deals with reports it might well have remained open. But it was not, so it didn't.

Just starting a topic saying "I don't like X about the playerbase, how do we fix that?" isn't super constructive. It borders on telling people that they're 'doing it wrong' and won't make the server culture change because some people read the forums. It's trying to work against what you perceive as a problem, rather than figure out what you can do to work with it.

[Vincent]

I mean, it's not like actual feedback is silenced and locked away. Just look in the feedback section for instance where we have literally thousands of threads for feedback on various aspects of the server.

But the topic you used as example was extremely nonconstructive. It dealt with a single specific circumstance and how players dealt with that and then spiraled off into some vague complaints about DM conduct. Had it been entirely about a civilized discussion on how the DM team deals with reports it might well have remained open. But it was not, so it didn't.

Just starting a topic saying "I don't like X about the playerbase, how do we fix that?" isn't super constructive. It borders on telling people that they're 'doing it wrong' and won't make the server culture change because some people read the forums. It's trying to work against what you perceive as a problem, rather than figure out what you can do to work with it.

I believe you're referring to a different thread, certainly not mine which this thread is actually referring to.

[Burt Macklin, FBI]

I, for one, would love to see a dedicated place to talk about server-wide issues pertaining to players. I know the DM teams would like us to individually report each incident to them, but I don't think that's enough. As hard working as the DM team is, they alone cannot fix an issue plaguing the entire server; it's something we as a playerbase have to discuss and work on as a whole, or nothing will be accomplished.

[Mastersir3]

I'm not posting this trying to be some sort of insurrectionist, nor attack anyone, DM or player. My concern is that there is a not a place for discussions like this to take place on the forums without getting attacked by the Arelith forum Nazis or immediately being squelched before getting any sort of answer. These discussions instead head into discord chats and OOC contempt starts to brew.

[Bryce Silver-Wind]

I think some of the issues that would come from such discussions is players would feel ganged up on, or targeted, or bullied by others. Especially as we cannot know the player behind the screen, their life, their physical and mental health and their behavior outside of one specific situation. Thus the DM's prefer it remain with them where they can take the player aside and discuss things on a different level with them.

[Nitro]

I'm not posting this trying to be some sort of insurrectionist, nor attack anyone, DM or player. My concern is that there is a not a place for discussions like this to take place on the forums without getting attacked by the Arelith forum Nazis or immediately being squelched before getting any sort of answer. These discussions instead head into discord chats and OOC contempt starts to brew.

I mean, if you're calling people who have opposing viewpoints Arelith forum Nazis then you're not really looking for a balanced discussion between people of differing thoughts and ideas are you? We have a functioning report button for people who actually troll and flame after all.

[Vincent]

I think some of the issues that would come from such discussions is players would feel ganged up on, or targeted, or bullied by others. Especially as we cannot know the player behind the screen, their life, their physical and mental health and their behavior outside of one specific situation. Thus the DM's prefer it remain with them where they can take the player aside and discuss things on a different level with them.

Mastersir3 isn't arguing we should be allowed to name and shame or anything of the sort. If you read my original thread, that is the type of discussion he is suggesting should be allowed, as I merely described my concerns with the server while very vaguely referencing some examples that had affected me.

[Angery]

I don't think that's what Mastersir3 was going for, Nitro. He meant there is no place to discuss problems without getting flamed.

[Bryce Silver-Wind]

I think some of the issues that would come from such discussions is players would feel ganged up on, or targeted, or bullied by others. Especially as we cannot know the player behind the screen, their life, their physical and mental health and their behavior outside of one specific situation. Thus the DM's prefer it remain with them where they can take the player aside and discuss things on a different level with them.

Mastersir3 isn't arguing we should be allowed to name and shame or anything of the sort. If you read my original thread, that is the type of discussion he is suggesting should be allowed, as I merely described my concerns with the server while very vaguely referencing some examples that had affected me.

I have read your thread actually, and understand your concerns. Problem is, the community is pack minded. It has a repeat habit of jumping on one specific target and lambasting it until its a puddle of goo. Be it about players, about DMs or events. This has been proven time and again.

[Mastersir3]

I'm not posting this trying to be some sort of insurrectionist, nor attack anyone, DM or player. My concern is that there is a not a place for discussions like this to take place on the forums without getting attacked by the Arelith forum Nazis or immediately being squelched before getting any sort of answer. These discussions instead head into discord chats and OOC contempt starts to brew.

I mean, if you're calling people who have opposing viewpoints Arelith forum Nazis then you're not really looking for a balanced discussion between people of differing thoughts and ideas are you? We have a functioning report button for people who actually troll and flame after all.

Like I stated to begin with, I'm not here to argue, and thanks to your rude responses what I had hoped to be a civil discussion will certainly be locked now.

[Vincent]

While that may be true surely it is necessary we are allowed to some extent criticise the server, especially when done so in a respectful fashion intended to ultimately be healthy for Arelith. Myself and many others have concerns about how common PvP has become and we would like the ability to discuss it in a place where it should be most appropriate: the official forums.

@Bryce

[Mastersir3]

I think some of the issues that would come from such discussions is players would feel ganged up on, or targeted, or bullied by others. Especially as we cannot know the player behind the screen, their life, their physical and mental health and their behavior outside of one specific situation. Thus the DM's prefer it remain with them where they can take the player aside and discuss things on a different level with them.

Mastersir3 isn't arguing we should be allowed to name and shame or anything of the sort. If you read my original thread, that is the type of discussion he is suggesting should be allowed, as I merely described my concerns with the server while very vaguely referencing some examples that had affected me.

I have read your thread actually, and understand your concerns. Problem is, the community is pack minded. It has a repeat habit of jumping on one specific target and lambasting it until its a puddle of goo. Be it about players, about DMs or events. This has been proven time and again.

See this is the kind of thought I had hoped to stir up. I'd like to see if there could be an open discussion about these sorts of behaviors and to see if there is some sort of resolution or enhancement that we could come up with as a community and perhaps present to the DM team.

[Angery]

I do feel as though something moderated by DM's where we can say our piece can only be seen as a boon for the server. It really feels as though there is nowhere to discuss these problems outside of discord, which only makes our hatred grow in a community where it's likely same-minded people who add fuel to your fire.

[Twily]

Posts that are neutral and an attempt to remain unbiased aren't disallowed.

The problem that arises is often times that doesn't end up being the path threads take.
Arelith's community, as with all online communities, has it's share of players who can sit down and have a calm, collected and civil discussion; but it also has those who prefer to stir the pot, or simply join in to a conversation with sarcasm and memes.

These things often cause threads to derail and brew toxicity that is unhealthy to the entire community; the fact that this does happen can be seen time and time again in many threads that end up locked.

Sometimes threads get locked early before getting to that point. These premature locks are based on previous experiences, trends and knowledge of the community; It's threads that they know would go south in a hurry.
Most often from what I've seen this tends to be threads with a tone and phrasing that comes off a bit too strongly, or sounds like an attack or complaint about the community, specific players, etc; rather than a very unbiased "What are peoples thoughts on 'x'?"

Posts on negative behavior or about the direction the server is heading just never turn out well, and they don't really make a difference. This is coming from someone who has made a few very neutral 'PSA' posts over the years. They just don't make a difference, but they still suffer in terms of reply quality(they tend to draw the attention of the sarcasm posters and 'memers').

We are of course entitled to our opinion, but at the end of the day the shape of the server falls down to however the devs want it.
And maybe the direction things head at times isn't how they want it and they just don't see that- this is why it's always stated that players should report such things to the DMs or Dunshine (depending on the situation).
If something is heading a direction they don't want, they'll work on getting it back on track.


And from what I've seen, most often when a thread quotes specific cases as examples, most of the examples given are in violation of server rules. This is yet another reason it's stated such grievances should simply be sent in a PM to DMs/Dunshine(depending).
Players aren't a jury on Arelith, we don't get to decide what is and isn't against the rules.


In short, there's nothing disallowing us from talking about these things; but PSA posts (usually) don't make a difference in the community's behaviour, and we as players don't get to decide the shape and path of the server. Public conversations on topics of this nature often just don't work out as a result, coordinating a bunch of players to send their views or concerns on a specific topic in a PM to a specific team member such as a specific DM, or Dunshine(or maybe if Dunshine had a second them as well) would likely be far more effective.

[Mastersir3]

In short, there's nothing disallowing us from talking about these things; but PSA posts (usually) don't make a difference in the community's behaviour, and we as players don't get to decide the shape and path of the server. Public conversations on topics of this nature often just don't work out as a result, coordinating a bunch of players to send their views or concerns on a specific topic in a PM to a specific team member such as a specific DM, or Dunshine(or maybe if Dunshine had a second them as well) would likely be far more effective.

It seems to me that there's really no point in a single player or small group of players trying to impact the server in a positive way at all then, which I feel is a sad reality. And I completely agree with you that I may have come on too strong in my initial posting, but also that there are obviously players unable to have a rational discussion without demeaning others. Thank you for the input.

[Kreydis]

People feel strongly about RP, as well as their own characters. Conversations about RP ethics always ends up being circular. In the end, nothing changes. The only person you can really change is yourself.

Also page 4.

[Twily]

All we can really do to positively impact the server is remain positive ourselves, and encourage positive behavior in game. I've found our behavior in game(both creating RP, and remaining kind in tells) is far more effective than posts on the forums though; as a surprising amount of the community completely avoids the forums and Discord(and in my experience, this tends to be a rather positive side of the community). This is also part of why PSA posts have a limited effect on the forum, half the player base in game doesn't come here.

Everyone has their reasons for playing though, and some players do just like PvP and try to seek it out where they can. Arelith tries to be as inclusive as it can, and as long as these players are following the rules(which they not always are; there's both PVP rules and a BeNice rule) and roleplaying, their presence doesn't seem to be discouraged.

The only person you can really change is yourself.

This is also another reality that contributes to the PSA style posts only doing so much.

[Burt Macklin, FBI]

We are of course entitled to our opinion, but at the end of the day the shape of the server falls down to however the devs want it.

This sort of thing is just fine in a smaller setting, like tabletop or a server capping at thirty or so people, and perhaps worked at one point - but Arelith is growing at an almost exponential rate. The larger the community grows, the less control the devs, DMs, moderators - anyone, really - has over them. While autonomy is nice, it presents an everpresent issue: things are going to get past the people in charge. It's not a lack of effort on the DM/devs' parts, by any means. It's sadly a problem brought on by the nature of such a large group setting.

So, instead of straining the DM team thin trying to deal with every single leak that springs in the S.S. Arelith, I think we as a community can take a little responsibility into our own hands; discuss issues, improve as players, help others learn and grow, and generally make Arelith a better place to be.

If there's an isolated issue, like a troll or a modder, then by all means, that should be taken directly to the DM team as soon as possible. But there's some things they just can't put a bandaid over - one of them being the rampant increase of PvP over RP that seems to be affecting the server as a whole. That in particular is something I think the community has to tackle together, and discuss ways to improve.

[Mastersir3]

People feel strongly about RP, as well as their own characters. Conversations about RP ethics always ends up being circular. In the end, nothing changes. The only person you can really change is yourself.

Also page 4.

Certainly it's a good thing when people feel strongly about RP, and these conversations do usually end up being pointless. Also, obviously I can only be in control of my own conduct, but a DM can influence conduct in many different ways. Its hard to make the point I'd like to make without sounding rude towards the Arelith staff, which is not at all what I'd like to do. I'm trying to express that there is a growing feeling of distrust towards the DM team in the handling of what many perceive to be larger issues, given that they are lax when handling minor duties, and I'd like to explore what could be done from a player standpoint to improve this relation.
I also am unaware what page 4 is referring to.

[Angery]

Kreydis, I do understand where you're coming from but I have to say I feel the exact opposite. Someone who really cares about their character will take all criticism to heart to learn on how to be a better player. It's something that's happened to me as well. I've criticized and been criticized by other players plenty of times. It's something you should always take a look at, even if you feel the criticism isn't valid you should always try and see where the other person is coming from.

Also huge thank you to everyone in this topic that has stayed civilized and kept this conversation going. It gives me hope for these types of posts to succeed.

[Dorkas]

Also page 4.

What does "page 4" mean? My wisdom score is 8, seriously it's tearing me apart, please respond. xoxoxo

[Nitro]

The problem is though, that the number of players that use the forum is a tiny fraction of the playerbase. We have 1347 registered users on this site, but the top number of unique player logins in game during a single month was 3058. If we're generous with it, only 1/3 of all players even bother registering on the forums. (Probably way less, but for the sake of convenience we'll only count active users from the more recent 'latest player counts' thread).

And then it gets even more narrowed down, how many of those 1347 are active posters? 10%? 5%? likely somewhere in that region. So even if people managed to change the perceptions of everyone on the forum about a matter (unlikely as that would be when people have differing views on things), that would still be a scant percentage of the total playerbase that's even been aware of it.

You can't force community-wide changes in a community like this through a forum, you can't even shift them slightly to one side or another. What you can do and is more practical, is aim at smaller, more targeted issues that can be resolved by those who visit the forums. Your criticism of the DM team for instance, whether correct or not can have an impact but then it's not a matter of reaching everyone on the forum any longer since only a select few people can actually do something about it.

And at that point, would it be more efficient to make a topic to talk about why or why not the DM team is doing their job well? Or would it be better to get like-minded people and send a PM directly to the head DM and/or admins with your grievances?