Why are we not allowed to talk about the server on the forums?

[Kreydis]

Page 4 is where most threads turn to absolute garbage. No meaningful talk goes on past that point. Or the threat is completely derailed at that point.

Also Angery, you're correct. But in the end, it's not you changing them. It's them taking it to heart, and trying to do conform. But even then, be careful of critiquing people. If you even want to risk it in the first place. Most people don't take player -> player critiquing well. Even from DM's people get salty.

Also I seem to have missed your point Mastersir3, was mostly just echoing off of Twily's post.

[Angery]

Nitro, I don't believe there was criticism of the DM team. This sounds like a derailment of the original topic. I believe the original post was to ask for players to communicate with each other in a better manner using the forums as a medium. Your posts are sounding like what gets forum threads locked, to be completely honest. Though I have to say your point about only 1/3 of the server being generous is very valid. Though you have to realize that also guests visit the forums and aren't registered. Not to mention the fact that the people who do visit the forums are usually the most dedicated players.

[Mastersir3]

And at that point, would it be more efficient to make a topic to talk about why or why not the DM team is doing their job well? Or would it be better to get like-minded people and send a PM directly to the head DM and/or admins with your grievances?

I don't know the answer to this. And like I said, I don't want to call out the DM team, because they're volunteers and they do a good job of keeping things running smoothly. I'd just like to express that there is some dissatisfaction, distrust, poor communication, whatever-it-be and felt it more appropriate to see what effect players could have on matters than to send a direct message at the DM team. The latter option feels entirely more hostile to me.

[Nitro]

Nitro, I don't believe there was criticism of the DM team. This sounds like a derailment of the original topic. I believe the original post was to ask for players to communicate with each other in a better manner using the forums as a medium. Your posts are sounding like what gets forum threads locked, to be completely honest.

It was a direct response to this post by the OP.

I don't know the answer to this. And like I said, I don't want to call out the DM team, because they're volunteers and they do a good job of keeping things running smoothly. I'd just like to express that there is some dissatisfaction, distrust, poor communication, whatever-it-be and felt it more appropriate to see what effect players could have on matters than to send a direct message at the DM team. The latter option feels entirely more hostile to me.

Well, put it this way. If you did something that it turns out you messed up at, would you rather be called out about it in front of a crowd or would you prefer if the person you wronged told you in private about what you messed up?

[MalKalz]

Having to throw my two cents in:

Feedback has two sides to it. Good feedback and bad feedback. Arelith will always have both and will not actively silence the bad. If it seems that way, it is not the case. If there are changes and opinions which are presented on stuff occurring in Arelith, the development / administration team would like to hear about it. It would be the only way for things to be considered for change and / or provide clarity on why things are the way they are.

To think Arelith will ever be perfect is living in a fantasy. There will be always something to tinker, to adjust and to consider, and feedback that is both constructive and to the point is warranted and appreciated. However, now discussing why things receive a thread lock:

Threads are generally locked for the following reasons:

- Grievances with particular players or IC events (These should not be occurring and should be specifically sent to the Active DM Team so that cases can be looked at and issues addressed). You, as a player, would not like to find yourself called out on a forum for everyone to see because someone felt there was a rule break or did not appreciate the story you were attempting to tell. This comes as a courtesy for everyone and respect for your fellow community members.

-Thread derailment. If you look at a lot of threads that have been locked, the topic of discussion shifts into memes, general disruption and nonconstructive remarks. Often this is jabs at one another, which then again, applies to the above - however, you also have the ! in the top right of a post to report it to the moderators (who handle all reports seriously and address them).

-Re-opening of threads already locked. If a thread has been locked, discussion on that topic for the time has come to an end. Opening a new thread to continue the conversation that violated appropriate forum etiquette will see the new one locked. I would prefer if players gave it some time, considered what was said in the other threads and then approach the moderators to ask them to unlock it and specify why.

-Lack of respect. There are enough cases where differences in opinion are taken too far. Every person is entitled to their own opinion and belief, but need to show respect to fellow community members. Do not be rude, do not harass someone, do not engage in behaviour that you do not want to receive yourself.

If you ensure that none of the four are occurring above, constructive feedback on on-going issues that should be open-ended, and not too specific, can be discussed among the community and a basis of patterns be established. However, looking at other threads, there was an approach of being too specific which called out the community members that were involved. If it was approached differently, the conversation could likely still occur.

Take the time to consider what is written and discuss something openly without pointing fingers at your community members.

[Angery]

Ah, my apologies Nitro. I hadn't seen that in the sea of posts here. Thank you for clarifying.

[Vincent]

I'd say the only guideline my thread deviated from was the first, @Spyre. However, it was written in a respectful fashion, and perhaps the thrust of my reason for creating the thread I did was due to the fact I actually had reported a particular incident, though I never received any indication something had happened from the DMs. In conjunction with the various messages I have sent to the DMs though not received responses to before, it was difficult to not feel somewhat "ignored." Ultimately, however, the purpose of my thread was not to point fingers at anyone but more to the PvP epidemic on the server, and I felt I made that fairly clear, though I suppose any reference to in game activity is deemed lock worthy.

[MalKalz]

Not everything is given notice that it has been handled; however, I have strongly encouraged that a response be given such that the person is where it has been looked into. We do not wish players to feel ignored, and I do apologize that you may have felt this way.

That being said, I will ensure that this occurs going forward with all reports and continue to stress the importance of responding that it has been looked into.

[Vincent]

Thank you, that's a very positive response to my personal predicament.

[Lunargent]

Way back in the wayback machine, the Arelith forums had a section for this, called "The Soapbox". As you might guess from the name, it was pure cancer and I'm glad it's removed, because everything there turned out to be (very) thinly veiled attacks against other players, their factions, the DM team, etc. It contributed nothing of value and just made people even more angry at one another.

If you have complaints or suggestions about the server, send them to the DM team. Otherwise, the best way to change the climate of the server is to continue being the type of person you want to see on the server.

[Marsi]

Way back in the wayback machine, the Arelith forums had a section for this, called "The Soapbox". As you might guess from the name, it was pure cancer and I'm glad it's removed, because everything there turned out to be (very) thinly veiled attacks against other players, their factions, the DM team, etc. It contributed nothing of value and just made people even more angry at one another.

If you have complaints or suggestions about the server, send them to the DM team. Otherwise, the best way to change the climate of the server is to continue being the type of person you want to see on the server.

This.

Was a rule broken? Report it.
Was a rule not broken but you felt it was poor form? Report it.

There's nothing precluding anyone from civil discussion. If you feel there's a PvP "epidemic", go ahead, start a thread and argue your case. There'll be many happy to point out why that's not true, by the way, myself included (there's not enough PvP!). What you can't do is refer to specific and recent events or name names as Spyre explains.

I'd say the only guideline my thread deviated from was the first, @Spyre.

And it's arguably the most important of them. It's ranty, uncivil and unfair. It can be tantamount to slander. Not only that, but when you anchor an argument in happened events or specific names, you rob it of the universality of a generalised, organised one. If you presented reasoning as to why you think PvP has become toxic, how it's a deviation from past culture, and concluded with a framework as to how we can make it better, all in the OP, I think people, mods included, would be far more responsive.

If you want contemporary evidence as to why the whole soapbox thing is a terrible idea, dig up practically any locked thread with "Underdark" in the title.

[Queen Titania]

I want to restress to prod us every 48 hours if something isn't responded to. Or ping us in discord every couple of days. Seriously, you deserve a response. And we want to give you one.

And just to reiterate, you can talk about things you don't like. But tone, diction, and content are extremely important to keep in mind when you do. Don't write something right after something terrible happened and you're all angry. It's likely you're compromised and what could be constructive is already threatened to go south. Remember everyone is human, and to be as courteous as you can.

[goatte]

There's nothing precluding anyone from civil discussion. If you feel there's a PvP "epidemic", go ahead, start a thread and argue your case. There'll be many happy to point out why that's not true, by the way, myself included (there's not enough PvP!).

"Why that's not true ..."

So those who argue the opposing point (too much PvP) are stating a falsehood and not merely an opposing viewpoint? *sighs*

And that is why many have left the server, myself included. I wish there was a way to have a reasoned discussion as the OP asked, but you have just proven his point, Marsi.

Good day to you all.

[Bryce Silver-Wind]

I do feel PVP does seem to be the very quick go too, in one day I saw 5 bodies in the hub and one outside of it. Had been killed twice and threatened such....so it does seem to be a bit aggressive, but that is for DMs to handle.

[Queen Titania]

There's nothing precluding anyone from civil discussion. If you feel there's a PvP "epidemic", go ahead, start a thread and argue your case. There'll be many happy to point out why that's not true, by the way, myself included (there's not enough PvP!).

"Why that's not true ..."

So those who argue the opposing point (too much PvP) are stating a falsehood and not merely an opposing viewpoint? *sighs*

And that is why many have left the server, myself included. I wish there was a way to have a reasoned discussion as the OP asked, but you have just proven his point, Marsi.

Good day to you all.

Just for reference, this is what we mean by non-appropriate posts. You can give constructive feedback to this, but you should be courteous.

[goatte]

I am sorry that you feel my response was inappropriate, while totally ignoring the aggressive/impolite/combative statement that I quoted. I've deleted all my characters. I truly don't belong here if you all are willing to look the other way in regards to aggressive behavior and posts meant to shut down those who wish to have a polite disagreement regarding PvP.

I bid you all good day.

[WinkinBlinkin]

Experiences of PvP are always very subjective. Perhaps it might be a good idea (if its not already done) for stats to be gathered on this, so that the Team can see if there is, or is not, and increase in PvP related deaths per capita. That way, if there is a trend, it is clearly visible, and the results of any action taken to reverse it would be similarly visible.

[Nitro]

I am sorry that you feel my response was inappropriate, while totally ignoring the aggressive/impolite/combative statement that I quoted. I've deleted all my characters. I truly don't belong here if you all are willing to look the other way in regards to aggressive behavior and posts meant to shut down those who wish to have a polite disagreement regarding PvP.

I bid you all good day.

I'm sorry, but how was anything Marsi said aggressive, impolite or combative? It was a politely worded, well thought out post containing his point of view. Nowhere in the post did he make any aggressive allegations against people with opposing views, in fact, he even encouraged actual discussion about it.

[monkeywithstick]

I disagree with goatte's argument, but:

There'll be many happy to point out why that's not true

Emphasis mine.

Much as with opinions of PvP (and a friend of mine chaired a panel at nine worlds recently regarding the duality of death/consequence in LRP), language use can be subjective also. That can be read as "I speak truth ergo you speak lies" or it can be read as "I hold my opinion firmly and am dismissive of yours", context would indicate the latter, which can still be a jovial "bring it" kind of friendly statement or a slightly passive aggressive shutdown.

I am not calling anyone out, I think the post was likely well intentioned, but in a thread that is teetering on the edge of a tyre fire I'd suggest folks take a little care with hyperbole...

As for the nine worlds panel a very tl;dr as there is sadly no transcript or video...
The consensus was on the one hand with no permadeath without consent you don't necessitate character stories being cut short. On the other, you also limit player agency; i.e. what impact can you have on a gameworld if you can't remove rivals. Some players find this frustrating.

With nonconsensual permadeath, you risk players being unsatisfied that their characters were ended prematurely, but all characters have more agency in the world precisely because they can in fact end one another.

I personally prefer the latter, but applying it to a NWN PW rather than a LRP would likely be a nightmare (for one thing LRP doesn't really have low buy in "griefers").

By my personal standards we are already quite far over to the one side. But it is all a matter of taste. Any given gameworld cannot cater to all sides.
(EDIT To whit: This also means people who disagree with the style leaving is not necessarily something that needs addressing practically (questions, answers and discussion are of course always welcome). There is a community here who presumably like the current style, changing it to garner the interest of new arrivals also risks alienating or losing them.)

[Atlantahammy]

I dunno if my input is perception bias or not, but...

For 6-5? days in a row, we had people starting PVP in the tower foyer, and not even.. 2? Days after, we had a sudden drow raid.
Next day they raid Brog, Guldorand, Myon, and a day later, they tried to raid the tower, AGAIN... (Many having been from the raiding group a day before), learned Guldorand had also been raided by banites, and a smaller group attacked the hub all that same day.

(By the way, thank you for the help with those two Raids, DM Wish, and DM Titaina, it was majorly appreciated)

So I do sort of agree PVP has been getting a bit insane of late...

Do think there could be some benefit of rules for settlement / guild house raiding. (Like an older example: There was a time where Bendir couldn't go a day without being raided) or some PVP rule tweaks.

(Please forgive all the edits, it's nearly 4 AM while posting this, and i keep noticing errors and want to make it more coherent.)

[Marsi]

I used that phrasing because to suggest there's been an increase in the PvP per capita from the historical average is a matter of true/false, rather than opinion/opinion. To argue that PvP has become an epidemic you'd first have to establish that it's true, which would, if even possible beyond anecdotes and rhetoric, require a lot of perspective and longevity on the server-- and the players with those things like to hark back to the wild west days when halflings were mass genocided and Banites roamed free which doesn't help that argument a whole lot. But that's neither here nor there. As a matter of fact, I love those sprawling but civil debates about server culture and state of affairs and I think this would be a worthy candidate.

By the way, "we need more pvp, not less" is a totally legitimate argument and not just trolling. It's not even very controversial either. I would love to get into the why in a dedicated thread if there was to be one.

[Bryce Silver-Wind]

The bendir thing...was only about 3 months ago, I know I was there. When they went everyday for almost a week with underdarker attacks until they had to contact one of the leaders of the attackers and literally OOCly ask them to target someone else for a while so they could get a break.

[monkeywithstick]

By the way, "we need more pvp, not less" is a totally legitimate argument and not just trolling. It's not even very controversial either. I would love to get into the why in a dedicated thread if there was to be one.

That phrasing is not as misconstruable. And in fact I agree. I agreed in the first instance, I can just see why it was taken poorly.

[Queen Titania]

I dunno if my input is perception bias or not, but...

For 5-6? days in a row, we had people starting PVP in the tower foyer, and not even.. 2? Days after, we had a sudden drow raid.
Next day they raid Brog, Guldorand, Myon, and a day later, they tried to raid the tower, AGAIN... (Many having been from the raiding group a day before), learned Guldorand had also been raided by banites, and a smaller group attacked the hub all that same day.

(By the way, thank you for the help with those two Raids, DM Wish, and DM Titaina, it was majorly appreciated)

So I do sort of agree PVP has been getting a bit insane of late...

Do think there could be some benefit of rules for settlement / guild house raiding. (Like an older example: There was a time where Bendir couldn't go a day without being raided) or some PVP rule tweaks.

(Please forgive all the edits, it's nearly 4 AM while posting this, and i keep noticing errors and want to make it more coherent.)

There ARE rules for attacking settlements. Settlements need permission for an attack, so its very easy for us to control how often they can be attacked Peace sometimes has to be fought for, and in a warring conflict, it'd not be at all unusual for a short-period of time to have several bouts. I'll also add the last one, which consisted of a few of your examples, was really a counter-attack, and I'm not sure if I'd add that to the number. But I'll agree their frequency as of late have spiked. This isn't necessarily good or bad on its lonesome.

Raids are still a good courtesy to receive a ping for so we can monitor, even if they don't take place in a settlement.

I will throw out some suggestions for the players. None of the below are rulings, just suggestions.

For Raiders:
1: Biggest suggestion: Have a goal beyond killing just to kill. Capturing a leader or hostage for ransom, maybe even an enemy's loved one. Maybe you're wanting to burn/salt farms that provide their income. Or desecrate their graveyard. Or collecting new slave labor for Andunor. Or capturing Myrtle the Cow for study in Boreal Keep. These leave a better lasting impression. We're more likely to not support a settlement raid if the aim is just "to kill." There's not much story potential there.
2: Try to be mindful of occurrence. Common raids have less of a narrative effect than a weekly excursion. They lose that sense of special-ness if they're too frequent.
3: Big groups are prone to lag, chaos, and little interaction before conflict. Consider breaking up large groups to set upon different tasks, so activity is spread about multiple areas. This is also good tactics in keeping your group hard to pin down.
4: Make sure to give some interaction. One or two interactions usually is lame. Try to see if you can get a minute of back and forth. Casting spells while your enemy can plainly see you is just inviting quick attacking.
5: Always double check to have the clear before engaging non-hostile NPCs or your settlement attack. This is in case we have crashed, or monitoring elsewhere on the server and don't have eyes where they need to be.

For Defenders:
1: Be very mindful about the 24 hour rule. Returning to what you were doing, especially while a conflict is still at large, can get you into conflict areas, and given the large numbers of opposition attackers can get, it's very easy for them to forget you were in a previous conflict. Do your part and consider a short delay in respawning, or going into a safe area of seclusion. Given raids usually stop by dawn, it's easy to stay away for sufficient time.
2: Give death some meaning. I've seen some people after getting their body destroyed re-spawn and return straight home with very little to no effects on them. Having some temporary lingering injury or the like to delay them just getting back into things also helps you justify not going after them in less than 24 hours.
3: Counter-attack. There's certainly an imbalance on who is the offensive side when we speak of it on a Surface/Underdark sort of mindset. Andunor and NPCs are off-limits without supervision but the paths and lands around it are fair game. Call out the leader for a duel and capture them, ambush people for questioning or hostage taking in turn. Treat it like war, and give the narrative fresh ground. There's plenty you can try without doing a settlement attack. And when/if you do a settlement attack, see the raider's point of one.
4: Also divide your forces. Especially if you know the attacking force is smaller than yours, it may be beneficial for division for ease of commanding, less lag and loading times, and easier to fulfill more sufficient interaction before PvP.
5: Instead of destroying your opposition's body, consider on occasion lengthening the interaction by taking a prisoner. Always aim to provide the most fun for yourself and your fellow players on opposition.

[Hexgoblin]

In regards to the above discussion between Marsi and Bryce, no the 'Bendir thing' referenced happened over a decade ago, when the Banite-led Stonehold faction subjugated most of Arelith. Bendir resisted, and were systematically executed or enslaved as a result, with halfling thralls building much of what now is the Talassian fort, with the mountainside it's situated on bearing the name of Stonehold's leader; Ryan Valtheran. Stonehold eventually fell to infighting, a celestial intervention and a largescale player revolt.

I wouldn't say that a chain of events transpiring over the span of a few days is a trend. If anything, Arelith's had the lowest quota of PvP throughout its entire lifespan as a server over the last year or so, to the point where incidents stand out a lot more starkly than they would have otherwise. As one of several faction leaders involved in what happened over the last week, much can be attributed to a chain of coincidences, with separate involved parties not communicating between themselves, causing things to happen in rapid succession and escalate at an unforeseen scale. Most of said people have since agreed to withdraw from conflict for a while for that very reason, to let everyone recuperate, reform, and open the field for constructive roleplay.

In brief, I don't think that this represents a shift in mentality. Just an incident that stands out more by contrast now more than it would have prior.

Ever since Wharftown's removal, the Arelith surface has turned very "safe", compared to the days of old. Arelith used to be a place where it was common for settlements to be in open, active war with one another. Not something that always worked out for the better, as it's kind of hard to reach a constructive conclusion when there's nothing set in stone to determine an outcome, bar DM intervention or player insight. Currently the only driven, non-argumentative conflict typically occurs whenever the Underdark is strong enough to lash out above. Meanwhile, if you think back just a few months, the Underdark raids were absolutely trounced before causing any damage. Mechanical faction power, and player initiative have always been, and will always be fluctuating things. Soon enough, these initiatives will be taken by someone else.

As for the unfortunate occasion with the mindflayer PC, I'm unaware as to what happened. Even as a UD main, I've never had the pleasure of encountering the character. But if I'm to make a sideline observation, I'm not surprised that the character faced heavy resistance. Mindflayers are absolutely a PC compatible race, and are involved in commerce throughout the Underdark, but do bear in mind that Arelith's Underdark specifically has faught cataclysmic wars against them. It could be argued that Udos and Grond would still stand were it not for the flayer wars, and Pit Town -- which was also destroyed, would've never had to be built to house the resistance against them. Playing one feels like setting yourself up for heavy adversity.