Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

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MissEvelyn
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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by MissEvelyn » Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:41 pm

Echohawk wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:28 pm
Image

I really wish passive aggressive crap like this could be ended personally. If we're going to go on about being 'courteous', because there's some people playing who seem to lack common sense or decency.
I really don't see anything wrong with this message. It's all IN-CHARACTER, thus you shouldn't take it personally.

The only thing you can take from this is that you can't do anything about it, unless the person who sent it decides to act up on and do more. Other than that, your character literally has no lead other than speculation.

But that message isn't for you. It's for your character. You are not your character.


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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by The_Queen~s_Rebuke » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:31 pm

There's only so far that I'm willing to allow for the 'In character/Out of Character' split, because very often, over the years, I have seen people doing outright mean things to other players under the guise of 'it's actually my character!'. I've even done so, in the past, before I took time to analyze why I was doing it and if it made Arelith more fun of a place to be present in.

In a perfect world, yes, it would be completely able to do so! But we also do not play these characters in a vacuum.

(As well, you should not be roleplaying for NPCs that are not under your direct control, so you can't roleplay for the Speedy Messengers.)
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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by Ork » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:55 pm

The biggest issue with that message is the godemoting. You really just have to laugh at that, Echo & report to the DMs. There's nothing right about that speedy. Lazy roleplayers don't deserve your frustration. It's comically easy to read through those words as an intended snub OOC communicated in an IC medium. That's a great example of griefing.

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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by MissEvelyn » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:07 pm

The_Queen~s_Rebuke wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:31 pm
(As well, you should not be roleplaying for NPCs that are not under your direct control, so you can't roleplay for the Speedy Messengers.)
This could easily be justified as having paid the Speedy to do said emoting. I've seen plenty of Speedy's, for example, spit on the ground. I do think this kind of use should be done very carefully, as it it's easy to spill over onto godmodding territory.
Last edited by The_Queen~s_Rebuke on Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Quoted post was deleted, continuing this line of conversation is needless.


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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:24 pm

One of the worst trends that ever happened on this server was when people started using the Speedy Messenger for stupid reasons. It's designed to be a way of communicating and coordinating in-game, so you can meet up with people and not rely on Discord or other stuff. (and yeah, could be used seldom for some narrative stuff, but it was well-intended and meant to foster roleplay not stifle it)

All the other crap that happened with it, *emoting it*, *handing over a written note (that begs to be metagamed and cannot be faulted if it is)*, kicking people, threatening people - it's all bad behaviour and DMs should have stopped it long ago.

Because, to use Ork's terminology, it's the pinnacle of the behaviour of forcing a character to interact without any give or take. You can't "push back" against an instantaneous message. You can't avoid it, skirt it, mold it, work with it - it's there, it's announced to the world, and you have to do something with it.

It's straight up poor taste. I don't think you'll ever be a good roleplayer if you do that.
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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by DM Chiliad » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:26 pm

It would be really nice if we could treat our fellow community with respect and dignity, both on an in character level, and an out of character one. You are all such fantastic, talented people and you all want whats best for the server and community health. Our emotions at times get in the way of making rational decisions and instead lead us to being hurtful and unkind to each other.

Lately, this has been the case for a lot of the tickets we've received in the last few months. When we could be running events, getting involved in the server, or playing our own PCs, we've been completely tied up sorting through massive webs of OOC. Don't get me wrong here, I love helping the community, and I like helping people step through their feelings so they can be productive again. But seeing the virtol and bullying (from everyone) is disheartening. If you feel nothing but salt and can do nothing but only spread more of it, then you might need to step back and ask yourself, "Am I still having fun? Am I fun to be around when I'm like this? What needs to change? What do I need to change in me?"

Please take a deep breath; it's just a house. It's just an election. It's just a board post. It is NOT worth attacking other people OOC about, it is not worth starting witch hunts and it is most certainly not worth causing distress in the community.

Diamonds are formed under pressure. The server is your oyster and you are the pearl. Yesterday you said tomorrow, tomorrow is today. Please be kind to one another and tolerant of styles that are different than your own and trust us to police what is unhealthy.


RE: Speedy Messengers, We receive many reports we get of people sending inappropriate speedies, where they say absolutely ridiculous things that are down right cruel (though funny, if I was perhaps ten years younger) and illegal (as you cannot RP for NPCs as the good Queen has mentioned). You can express your feelings in a productive and constructive way that does not involve having to emote for the messenger. Please stop doing this.

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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by MissEvelyn » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:43 pm

Now I know why they call you Chiliad. You are so chill! :lol:

Seriously though, you're right. At the end of the day, we're all here to have fun together. No one player should be against another player. It's a different story for characters and that's fine.

It definitely helps me to remember that we're all writing a story together here =)


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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by The GrumpyCat » Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:15 pm

Just to back up Chilliad - please don't make Speedies emote things. They arn't for that.

And yes, being 'chill' is actually a great bit of advice.

Everyone enjoys different aspects of this server. Tolerate that different people are going to enjoy different things to you. Respect other peoples playstyles when you can. And when you can't (because In Characterness, or the needs of other players prevent it) try and remember to also be tolerant when the same is done to you. Try and let people have the space to make their own narrative basicaly, but at the same time understand that other peoples narratives will, on occasion, run over yours. Try and go with it when they do, try and make that fun. Most of all - Remember This Is Only A Game. Not worth getting too upset/stressed/angry over.
This too shall pass.

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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:24 pm

This is just making me wonder, has anyone ever used a speedy to emote a hin pulling down his pants and pooping at someone's foot? Or is this new and exciting territory? I mean, not that I would ever break the rules, no. Of course not.

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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by Nekonecro » Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:35 pm

Don't give people ideas, please. >.<

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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by strong yeet » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:15 pm

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:24 pm
This is just making me wonder, has anyone ever used a speedy to emote a hin pulling down his pants and pooping at someone's foot? Or is this new and exciting territory? I mean, not that I would ever break the rules, no. Of course not.
what

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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by Memelord » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:38 pm

strong yeet wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:15 pm
Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:24 pm
This is just making me wonder, has anyone ever used a speedy to emote a hin pulling down his pants and pooping at someone's foot? Or is this new and exciting territory? I mean, not that I would ever break the rules, no. Of course not.
what

Yes. Yes, they have. I can attest to this. This is why people get slapped for including emotes in Speedies. The messenger is not your character, therefore, you cannot control what they do - to prevent stupid stuff like this. Giving them a sense of personality, an accent, etc - that's one thing. Paying them less than the amount of money they'd make going and stomping on rats for an hour to take a shit on the feet of one of the most politically powerful individuals on the island - or even just to spit on them, is another.

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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by The GrumpyCat » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:53 pm

Memelord wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:38 pm
strong yeet wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:15 pm
Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:24 pm
This is just making me wonder, has anyone ever used a speedy to emote a hin pulling down his pants and pooping at someone's foot? Or is this new and exciting territory? I mean, not that I would ever break the rules, no. Of course not.
what

Yes. Yes, they have. I can attest to this. This is why people get slapped for including emotes in Speedies. The messenger is not your character, therefore, you cannot control what they do - to prevent stupid stuff like this. Giving them a sense of personality, an accent, etc - that's one thing. Paying them less than the amount of money they'd make going and stomping on rats for an hour to take a shit on the feet of one of the most politically powerful individuals on the island - or even just to spit on them, is another.
This. This basicaly.
Thank you Memlord, that's very well put.

Now, back to the topic?
This too shall pass.

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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:57 pm

I thought emoting through speedy messenger was banned a decade ago when my brither played a chaotic evil joker like bard blackgaurd of Cyric who did literally acted chaotic evil at lvl 3 from slapping people with a fish to sending messengers to throw pies at peoples' faces.
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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by Cortex » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:02 pm

I think the Speedy message in the screenshot has dangerous amounts of salt. Disregarding the emotes and making the Speedy a "character" played by the player, it breaks the 4th Wall and steps into OOC territory by making the assumption a town is empty on the grounds some players (allegedly, because I don't know the full context) left, not taking into account NPCs. If I ever saw that on a board, from a messenger or spoken, I'd be find it very amusing. It is a dishonest OOC jab.
:)

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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:22 pm

StrykerMontgomery wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:57 pm
I thought emoting through speedy messenger was banned a decade ago when my brither played a chaotic evil joker like bard blackgaurd of Cyric who did literally acted chaotic evil at lvl 3 from slapping people with a fish to sending messengers to throw pies at peoples' faces.
A slappy messenger service sounds like an excellent player-run group though, where you charge people money in exchange for going and finding someone and slapping them. Have an epic diviner to locate them, then go on an adventure.

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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by Wytchee » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:23 pm

Cortex wrote:
Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:02 pm
I think the Speedy message in the screenshot has dangerous amounts of salt. Disregarding the emotes and making the Speedy a "character" played by the player, it breaks the 4th Wall and steps into OOC territory by making the assumption a town is empty on the grounds some players (allegedly, because I don't know the full context) left, not taking into account NPCs. If I ever saw that on a board, from a messenger or spoken, I'd be find it very amusing. It is a dishonest OOC jab.
The Speedy in question was sent to Wylaana. And yes, I had to take a drink of water afterwards.
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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by DM Always This Late » Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:04 pm

There is a lot of info here, the speedy stuff has been well covered.

Stop. Using. Speedies. To. Emote.

Making the speedy slap someone, stare at someone angrily, or do any sort of action is abusing the system. As it was mentioned, the speedy is not your character. The same mentality applies to town criers too.
Lately, this has been the case for a lot of the tickets we've received in the last few months. When we could be running events, getting involved in the server, or playing our own PCs, we've been completely tied up sorting through massive webs of OOC. Don't get me wrong here, I love helping the community, and I like helping people step through their feelings so they can be productive again. But seeing the virtol and bullying (from everyone) is disheartening. If you feel nothing but salt and can do nothing but only spread more of it, then you might need to step back and ask yourself, "Am I still having fun? Am I fun to be around when I'm like this? What needs to change? What do I need to change in me?"
^ I do not think I could express how I feel myself better than that.

There needs to be some SERIOUS separation between IC and OOC emotions.

I know as a player how easy it is to look at situations and begin to make assumptions about -why- the other person is acting a certain way. But those assumptions are just that. They don't have all the facts. Often times what happens is Person A perceives a wrong doing, so they go and break rules trying to get back at person B. Now both people have had their days properly ruined and we have to enforce the rules.

Seeing a rule break (Or what you perceive as a rule break) and becoming a Vigilante batman style taking the rules into your own hands is not the solution.


My advice: If your character becomes so frustrating to play that it's no longer fun. ROLL. Rolling is not a bad thing. I've done this before, and it is great. Instead of beating my head against a brick wall I wrap it up and move onto something different. Shelving is also an idea, just shelve the character for a month and take some time to relax and invest into a different concept.


Advice I received when I first began as a player,

"You need to trust that the community is full of good people and have faith in your fellow players"

And the person that said that is right. As soon as I stopped assuming the worst about peoples actions things got better. It's easy with OOC friends to get caught in an echo chamber "Well we all agree they are bad!" but rarely do they have all the facts or perspective.

And I know how this works, because even when I play as a player now I think "Are they really reacting to me based on their character's choices? Or this OOC context?" And I throw that thought out. There is no way for me to know that and I'm not going to assume the worst about the player. Ending my pre-assumptions of other characters actions no matter 'how right' I think I am immediately removes most OOC emotion tugs and lets me focus purely on what/how my character is perceiving this information.

Finnally,

Forgive and forget.

If we keep a mental tally sheet of every time a player has 'messed up' in our eyes and continually base our IC reactions based on the OOC perception of the player we're going to continue to have issues.

Like Chiliad said with these massive OOC Webs. Let's be fair, we're never going to mediate these things in a way that makes -everyone- happy. And do you think any of us want to get home from work and sit down to read a small novel of complains that go back to months if not years? Let alone try to navigate this? We'll try, for the sake of it but it's very time consuming.

As players, if you've been wronged, we can do our -best- to find solutions. But at the end of the day it is -you- who has to decide to forgive and forget and not let animosity hang on and bleed into the game. Because then you're not only tanking your own fun, but the fun of everyone around you too.

And lets be real, it's never going to perfect. We are people. The only solution is to be flexible and understanding over-all.

I hope something said here might open an eye or two and provide a different basis of mentality that someone might find useful.
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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by Nobs » Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:39 pm

What i always try to do is something my mother told me when i was a wee lad.
She told me to always play to win BUT also not to cry when other kids beat me at something.

Personaly i find that this translates rather well to every game i ever played from sports to computer games.

I play Jerry Fendon and i tend it have moments in game where i mess op one of my fellow players days by some words i have Jerry say or down right pvp them.
This doesnt meen i hate them or dont like them oocly....it meens Jerry is a rotten bastard and i try my best to play him like that.

On the other side i have no problems with players doing the same to me....Hell , Jerry spend a good time in a jail cell on Skal some time ago where he had a bucket of his own piss trown in his face and was verbaly abused and even beaten to near death by some one in the cell. (This all lasted a few good rl hours) And i personaly had a great time with it and im sure the other players there did aswel.

Dont know what im trying to say here....my mother's wise words always pop into my mind when i read somehting like this tread.

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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by Drexyl N~drass » Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:18 pm

*swoops around his orb prison*

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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by Huschpfusch » Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:20 pm

Drexyl N~drass wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:18 pm
*swoops around his orb prison*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Js_MlPcwJw
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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by goatte » Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:19 pm

Nobs wrote:
Fri Aug 17, 2018 1:39 pm
I play Jerry Fendon and i tend it have moments in game where i mess op one of my fellow players days by some words i have Jerry say or down right pvp them.
This doesnt meen i hate them or dont like them oocly....it meens Jerry is a rotten bastard and i try my best to play him like that.

On the other side i have no problems with players doing the same to me....Hell , Jerry spend a good time in a jail cell on Skal some time ago where he had a bucket of his own piss trown in his face and was verbaly abused and even beaten to near death by some one in the cell. (This all lasted a few good rl hours) And i personaly had a great time with it and im sure the other players there did aswel.

Dont know what im trying to say here....my mother's wise words always pop into my mind when i read somehting like this tread.
Nobs, thanks for sharing. I could tell from your post that you were happy to RP the abuse taken by your character because that was part of a narrative to which you were happy to contribute/participate.

I am not sure if everyone would want to participate in that kind of RP, whether receiving or giving. Could some others weigh in on this level of RP? I'd like to hear what they have to say.

"Would you participate in this level of RP? Would you communicate your comfort level to the other players? Would you just log off if you were uncomfortable?"

Perhaps by understanding how more folks feel, we won't end up with situations where someone is asked to RP abuse/torture, intense PvP, vandalism of crafted items, drive-by healings, etc., and the DMs end up spending too much of their time adjudicating arguments over what was done by whom to whom? I appreciate what they do every day I play. They can't be everywhere as police officers to the server, when we need them more for helping us with our RP, dreaming up the awesome quest/DM events (I was fortunate enough to participate in many on the Distant Shores server), and helping us when something glitches.

Folks, please weigh-in with what you feel and believe. We've had some very strong opinions given, and I was happy that they felt comfortable to share those feelings/opinions with us.
goatte
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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by Bryce Silver-Wind » Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:24 am

During capture/torture RP, its good for the "capturer/torturer" to contact the player too, just a simple, hey, if any of this gets too much for you, or makes you feel uncomfortable please let me know and I will gladly change the RP.

That simple line...shows your concerned about the players fun and enjoyment, as much as their comfort level.

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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by MissEvelyn » Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:30 am

Bryce Silver-Wind wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:24 am
During capture/torture RP, its good for the "capturer/torturer" to contact the player too, just a simple, hey, if any of this gets too much for you, or makes you feel uncomfortable please let me know and I will gladly change the RP.

That simple line...shows your concerned about the players fun and enjoyment, as much as their comfort level.
Definitely this. Although it's important to note that we are a PG-13 rated server, so the torture in detail will need to be limited.


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Re: Be Kind: a proposed corollary - "Be considerate"

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:30 am

goatte wrote:
Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:19 pm
Folks, please weigh-in with what you feel and believe. We've had some very strong opinions given, and I was happy that they felt comfortable to share those feelings/opinions with us.
I'm always okay with bad things happening to or being done to my characters to drive a narrative of some sort. There are two caveats to this.

1: Just because I'm okay with bad things happening to the character doesn't mean the character is going to let them happen - please don't require my character to act out of character for your machinations to work unless your character can force the issue IC successfully.

2: I expect the other person to be okay with the fact that we exist in a world where magical healing and even regeneration is a thing, and any maiming or the like is almost guaranteed to be somewhat transient unless a LOT of time and planning and RP goes into it, in which case I'm happy to have it linger for a while or even be permanent if the RP can justify it against a vast array of miraculous healing (there are options for this).
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