Law in the underdark.

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Invader_Nym
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Law in the underdark.

Post by Invader_Nym » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:45 am

I need some clarification on Andunor and its laws. I assume that in Cordor murder in the streets is considered a crime, and indeed even in drow culture there's an outward appearance of law and order. Murder must be done discretely and secretly, and failure to do so is itself considered a crime.

Is it equally a crime for people to just run about killing eachother willy-nilly in Andunor? What's the offical position on the role the city and its peace-keepers play?

MoreThanThree
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Re: Law in the underdark.

Post by MoreThanThree » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:55 am

Law is a projection of power from the powerful upon the powerless, especially in the Underdark. Nobody who holds more power than the enforcers of law in Andunor is beholden to the laws of Andunor.
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Re: Law in the underdark.

Post by Wytchee » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:59 am

Never played in the UD for more than a few days because I have a vitamin D deficiency IRL as it is, but though what >3 says is true I think if Andunor starts becoming a lawless anything goes arena type situation it would be time for the DMs to step in, because that's not fun for a lot of people.
Current character: Abigail Duskwood

Invader_Nym
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Re: Law in the underdark.

Post by Invader_Nym » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:03 am

MoreThanThree wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:55 am
Law is a projection of power from the powerful upon the powerless, especially in the Underdark. Nobody who holds more power than the enforcers of law in Andunor is beholden to the laws of Andunor.
Why wouldn't this principle hold true in Cordor, then?

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MajorArcana
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Re: Law in the underdark.

Post by MajorArcana » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:18 am

Invader_Nym wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:03 am
MoreThanThree wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:55 am
Law is a projection of power from the powerful upon the powerless, especially in the Underdark. Nobody who holds more power than the enforcers of law in Andunor is beholden to the laws of Andunor.
Why wouldn't this principle hold true in Cordor, then?
Because the Surface is crawling with those of Good alignments, something the UD lacks. Typically, people are unable to exert their power to an extent where they don't suffer consequences for it.

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Ork
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Re: Law in the underdark.

Post by Ork » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:31 am

This is gonna be great. If you want a DM's answer to this, I'd take it to PMs. If you're asking the community & seeking an answer that fits with what you believe SHOULD BE - you're in for a bad time.
Last edited by Ork on Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

PinataPlethora
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Re: Law in the underdark.

Post by PinataPlethora » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:34 am

The Peacekeepers are there to prevent violence within the wheel. Starting a fight in front of them should be considered no wiser than doing so in front of a Cordorian Elite or the shadow mages at the Trade Post, and ignoring the ramifications of their presence is metagaming.

Once you're out of their sight, however...

BattleDrake
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Re: Law in the underdark.

Post by BattleDrake » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:36 am

PinataPlethora wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:34 am
The Peacekeepers are there to prevent violence within the wheel. Starting a fight in front of them should be considered no wiser than doing so in front of a Cordorian Elite or the shadow mages at the Trade Post, and ignoring the ramifications of their presence is metagaming.

Once you're out of their sight, however...
Peacekeepers aren't actually there for player related incidents. They're there for the protection of the city from outside threats, at least, the last time I rp'd with a dm controlling one, that was what they said. Any issues between players should be dealt with between the players and ruling factions.

Recent Characters:
Aramis - "S'fine piece of art yer havin' there." (Shelved)
Eradyn - Trying to make the world a better place. (Shelved)
[Redacted] - ? (?)
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Invader_Nym
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Re: Law in the underdark.

Post by Invader_Nym » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:38 am

Okay, so, on the surface, powerful evil people can't subvert the law, because the general populace would take steps to prevent that from taking place.

What makes Andunor any different? As I illustrated earlier, even drow culture, the most vile, evil, and chaotic of all cultures, has a set of rules that people have to abide by. What distinguishes Andunor as intrinsically worse culturally speaking than drow culture?

I'm most interested in feedback from the staff on what the established lore and laws of Andunor are. If it's the case that there is no lore or law, maybe the Peacekeepers should be removed, and maybe the fact that the city is 100% lawless should be codified in some way.

Sab1
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Re: Law in the underdark.

Post by Sab1 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:42 am

Pvp in the UD just seems to be the way people now want to deal with any issue. From big issue to small issue it simply seems to be pvp. Reminds me of how lawless Skal became.

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Re: Law in the underdark.

Post by Ork » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:45 am

Invader_Nym wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:38 am
Okay, so, on the surface, powerful evil people can't subvert the law, because the general populace would take steps to prevent that from taking place.

What makes Andunor any different? As I illustrated earlier, even drow culture, the most vile, evil, and chaotic of all cultures, has a set of rules that people have to abide by. What distinguishes Andunor as intrinsically worse culturally speaking than drow culture?

I'm most interested in feedback from the staff on what the established lore and laws of Andunor are. If it's the case that there is no lore or law, maybe the Peacekeepers should be removed, and maybe the fact that the city is 100% lawless should be codified in some way.
You seem to have an agenda in what you want to hear. You won't get that here. PM the Devs & Admins.

Black Wendigo
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Re: Law in the underdark.

Post by Black Wendigo » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:48 am

Actually. Cordor's law are also a projection of the powerful rich, and influential. IF it would be less Evil than the UD, it is only because there are actually people of good intent who struggle with the corrupt for rule and occasionally win. The UD and by extension Andunar, are predominately evil, full of monsters, outcasts, and cast offs from the surface and what not. It is based on evil and in that there is no true law except that which the powerful are able to impose.

IF you talk to the peacekeepers you will see that they are NOT there to settle fights in the city or to uphold laws. They are there to defend the city from outside forces, like a city invasion from the illithids. And that's it. They are not the equivalent of the Cordor guards or any guards at all in the usual sense. SO no starting a fight i front of the peacekeepers (whom one should note are ironically named) is NOT the same as starting one in front of the Cordor guard. it isnt metagaming to do so, is playing within the setting and actually staying in char to do so :).

THE UD is full for warped, dark creatures and even the ones that could be comparable to a civilized race, such as the drow, are nothing of the sort. SO law is whatever the powerful people say it is. Ther is no "established" laws that the server is (or should be enforcing. That is for the Pcs to do; And to break if they feel it necessary.

BattleDrake
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Re: Law in the underdark.

Post by BattleDrake » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:02 am

Just as an input, since it seems people are avoiding a crucial point here. Despite the laws/rules of Andunor, there are Rules of the Server that supercede any laws you choose to impose. Just because your character is a big bad level 30 that wants to run around telling everyone what to do, or you'll kill them, and it perfectly fits your RP, that doesn't fit the intentions of the Server, nor is it really RP. Keep in mind, everyone is here to RP and have fun. If you want to make laws that aren't fun for anyone and ruin the RP of the server as a whole, go for it, just don't expect to get off scott free.

Recent Characters:
Aramis - "S'fine piece of art yer havin' there." (Shelved)
Eradyn - Trying to make the world a better place. (Shelved)
[Redacted] - ? (?)
Skek - Happiness in Endless Industry. (Rolled)


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Re: Law in the underdark.

Post by Skibbles » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:06 am

"Might makes right," is the short of it.
Irongron wrote: [...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.

So we're very much on track.

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Re: Law in the underdark.

Post by Ork » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:15 am

BattleDrake wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:02 am
Just as an input, since it seems people are avoiding a crucial point here. Despite the laws/rules of Andunor, there are Rules of the Server that supercede any laws you choose to impose. Just because your character is a big bad level 30 that wants to run around telling everyone what to do, or you'll kill them, and it perfectly fits your RP, that doesn't fit the intentions of the Server, nor is it really RP. Keep in mind, everyone is here to RP and have fun. If you want to make laws that aren't fun for anyone and ruin the RP of the server as a whole, go for it, just don't expect to get off scott free.
I don't know. I don't think that's up to players to discern that - broken record but, message a DM. Andunor is a seat of conflicting ideologies & players often find themselves in uncompromising positions where their adversary won't relent even after crippling defeat. A player that roleplays loss just as fervently as victory often find themselves lauded by player & DM alike.

Invader_Nym
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Re: Law in the underdark.

Post by Invader_Nym » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:18 am

Ork wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:45 am
You seem to have an agenda in what you want to hear. You won't get that here. PM the Devs & Admins.
Yes, I absolutely have an agenda. Why should that surprise you in any way? You obviously have an agenda too by the way you tried to reflexively shut this discussion down. I'm not sure how observing that we both have agendas is in any way useful.

The staff and the players pay lip service to the idea that roleplay is paramount, but the reality is that the UD is a rp-lite deathmatch server, and not only is it allowed, but encouraged by the staff and players. I'm getting private PMs from players who feel exactly the same as me, but they're too cowed to speak up because of players like Ork here who basically tell dissenters to STFU.

BattleDrake
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Re: Law in the underdark.

Post by BattleDrake » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:19 am

Ork wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:15 am
BattleDrake wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:02 am
Just as an input, since it seems people are avoiding a crucial point here. Despite the laws/rules of Andunor, there are Rules of the Server that supercede any laws you choose to impose. Just because your character is a big bad level 30 that wants to run around telling everyone what to do, or you'll kill them, and it perfectly fits your RP, that doesn't fit the intentions of the Server, nor is it really RP. Keep in mind, everyone is here to RP and have fun. If you want to make laws that aren't fun for anyone and ruin the RP of the server as a whole, go for it, just don't expect to get off scott free.
I don't know. I don't think that's up to players to discern that - broken record but, message a DM. Andunor is a seat of conflicting ideologies & players often find themselves in uncompromising positions where their adversary won't relent even after crippling defeat. A player that roleplays loss just as fervently as victory often find themselves lauded by player & DM alike.

Not specifying any particular event, bud. Just going over the rules of the server. You know, the Be Nice Rule. There's no reason to message a DM since this isn't about anything in particular. This is just a general rule of thumb.

Recent Characters:
Aramis - "S'fine piece of art yer havin' there." (Shelved)
Eradyn - Trying to make the world a better place. (Shelved)
[Redacted] - ? (?)
Skek - Happiness in Endless Industry. (Rolled)


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Re: Law in the underdark.

Post by Rwby » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:20 am

NPC Guards are primarily there to protect NPCs. From other NPCs, or from players. They're a force at the disposal of the DMs to interact with players who threaten the established order.

PCs who threaten PCs get dealt with by PCs, unless their actions somehow threaten NPCs. [Like, dropping hellballs in the Nomad.]

That's the summary. We're playing a game here people. The NPC guards forfill a game function.

Invader_Nym
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Re: Law in the underdark.

Post by Invader_Nym » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:42 am

Here's how 99% of the PVP in the underdark goes.

Player 1: "Obey."
Player 2: "No."
Player 1: "Okay die."
Player 1 kills player 2.

Okay, great, rules of engagement satisfied, the interaction is totally IC. No story told, no actual roleplay has taken place, or will arise as a consequence, and it's frankly a totally rotten thing for a player to do to another player.

So, what can player 2 do? Send a PM to a DM and say "This player was mean to me."

A) No player wants to send that PM, because they end up feeling like a whiner, even though the offending player was behaving like a total prick.
B) No DM wants to micromanage on this level.
C) Even if a player did contact a DM, very little, if anything, will come of it. Maybe a warning or something, to be nice in the future, and then the player will be nice for a little while until the heat dies down, and then it's back to normal.

Everyone has their finger on the trigger in the hub and they're looking for a reason, any reason, to pull it. One of the ways we can circumvent this is to at least require players to show some cunning and actually have to use their brain and think about how they can commit a crime and get away with it. Better still, why not develop ways to be mean IC, and nice OOC, so that we can actually tell compelling stories? Or maybe I was right in my original observation, and we secretly do like that the UD is a rp-lite deathmatch server.

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Re: Law in the underdark.

Post by JediMindTrix » Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:55 am

PinataPlethora wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:34 am
The Peacekeepers are there to prevent violence within the wheel. Starting a fight in front of them should be considered no wiser than doing so in front of a Cordorian Elite or the shadow mages at the Trade Post, and ignoring the ramifications of their presence is metagaming.
Hella wrong. read the commanders dialog

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Re: Law in the underdark.

Post by PinataPlethora » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:28 am

Invader_Nym wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:42 am
So, what can player 2 do? Send a PM to a DM and say "This player was mean to me."

A) No player wants to send that PM, because they end up feeling like a whiner, even though the offending player was behaving like a total prick.
B) No DM wants to micromanage on this level.
C) Even if a player did contact a DM, very little, if anything, will come of it. Maybe a warning or something, to be nice in the future, and then the player will be nice for a little while until the heat dies down, and then it's back to normal.
Yes. Every single time. The Underdark is what it is, because some players have made it so, and others have allowed it to happen.

It may be that nothing comes of your report the first time, or the second time, or maybe even the third time, but when enough reports are filed about a particular problem player, they will begin to lose the benefit of the doubt when DMs investigate incidents.

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MalKalz
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Re: Law in the underdark.

Post by MalKalz » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:44 am

Invader_Nym wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 3:18 am
Ork wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:45 am
You seem to have an agenda in what you want to hear. You won't get that here. PM the Devs & Admins.
Yes, I absolutely have an agenda. Why should that surprise you in any way? You obviously have an agenda too by the way you tried to reflexively shut this discussion down. I'm not sure how observing that we both have agendas is in any way useful.

The staff and the players pay lip service to the idea that roleplay is paramount, but the reality is that the UD is a rp-lite deathmatch server, and not only is it allowed, but encouraged by the staff and players. I'm getting private PMs from players who feel exactly the same as me, but they're too cowed to speak up because of players like Ork here who basically tell dissenters to STFU.
I'm shutting this down on the account of poor attitude. This should have been addressed privately. Please do not take it publicly if you do not want feedback from the community and only staff.

Thank you.

Note: Also assuming the DMs do not take note of this and address things accordingly is bad practice as a player. We handle things on a case by case basis, and if there is any punishment, it is between us and the offending player.

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