What do you seek in an antagonist?

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Zed
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What do you seek in an antagonist?

Post by Zed » Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:47 am

Without going into IC banter about who does what...etc....etc



What do you seek in seeing an antagonist?


The reasoning for the question really is for a few reasons... But none I will get too into, mainly just I know many people see themselves as the hero in their own story, which I think is great, but I always seek that antagonist roll, where I find a way to make the 'hero' figure out how to better overcome a problem, rather than the typical Gary Stu or Mary sue their way out of it... Eventually making them all the better for it.

Something that I have always repeated to anyone who plays with me as an antagonist is this; "you are playing the evil, or the good. It is not your goal to win. It is your goal to further the story in a way that makes a hero think about their actions, you are not the hero, you do not support the hero, you are the bad guy. The best thing to do is to find someone to be the hero in your story, make them doubt themselves, be strong enough to overcome but never be weak. Find the one you like to RP with, and find the best RPer you can and build them up as high as you can through your character."


To me, an evil character or a good character ( in the underdark sense) can be used to really show the weaknesses of these very human interactions. But also show the strength of these characters who overcome these problems


But over all, what do you feel makes a good antagonist? Has anyone given you that 100% great experience? And what made it so special?

If you encountered this character and a bandit tomorrow what sets them apart?\


EDIT: Love the posts guys! Ill add a little amendment here though with another question;

Do you see these antagonists around? Would you be willing to play one? and why or why not?


Also wrote this thread last night on my phone and it waaaaay needed an edit job :)
Last edited by Zed on Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rookie
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Re: What do you seek in an antagonist?

Post by rookie » Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:57 am

Building on what you've already RPed and not nixing what you've done. I'd rather someone accept a loss then come back and swear revenge, perhaps completely screwing over my character a month down the road, whether combat was involved or not.

The reverse would be nixing something where they're flawless and impenetrable, and even if they experience a loss or death they brush it off like it was nothing.

I dunno, sort of the difference between RPing with someone as opposed to at a brick wall. Really this advice applies for any opposition and at its core requires trust among everyone involved. I also need to make sure that even something that is going poorly for the other side is engaging for them and not a slog or exercise in frustration. Likewise I have to be willing to accept a loss myself when it fits, sometimes even helping to engineer at least a setback even if I could think of a way out of what they've presented if things have been one sided in my favor too much in the past to keep it engaging.

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Marsi
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Re: What do you seek in an antagonist?

Post by Marsi » Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:13 am

The best kinds of villains in my eyes focus on inclusion and above all else, getting things done. The best kind of villain is more concerned with what he can see realised on the server rather than what he is, as a character. His motivation is ideological rather than over-complicated Freudian childhood.

Of course, these should describe a great hero too, but I think the villain has more responsibility in terms of setting the scene and kick-starting the plot.

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ReverentBlade
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Re: What do you seek in an antagonist?

Post by ReverentBlade » Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:38 am

One I have to match wits against and feel mentally challenged. A strong PvP build doesn't scare so much as a savvy schemer and manipulator. One who -isn't- moustache twirly obvious evil, but has a definite flair for the darkly dramatic.

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ReverentBlade
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Re: What do you seek in an antagonist?

Post by ReverentBlade » Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:42 am

Secondary, unorthodox answer: Antagonists that firmly believe they are fighting for the greater good, and that their ends justify their means. Someone who never looks at themself as being "evil", but believes their actions are just and righteous despite the evidence in front of them.

Clerics and paladins can fall into this trope without meaning to. Antagonist doesn't always mean evil.

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Re: What do you seek in an antagonist?

Post by Emotionaloverload » Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:04 pm

I have had a lot of fun with different kinds of evil; those that thought they were good and justified and those that were utterly bonkers evil. To me they were fun and successful because they were multifaceted (even the mad wizard types have more parts to them than just creating the monster), not afraid to be evil (its hard for characters to get to know your evil if they always stay walled up in their locked lair), and included as many as possible (new evil allies, new good enemies, new good~ allies, who knows).

P.S. There is also the hidden evil types which are great too!

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Re: What do you seek in an antagonist?

Post by MoreThanThree » Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:16 pm

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Borin Drakkmurl
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Re: What do you seek in an antagonist?

Post by Borin Drakkmurl » Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:58 pm

The best memories I have of a character antagonistic to mine are about Ayin Mesmer.

Even though it wasn't an overly dramatic and epic relationship, there was something about it that was very compelling.

I can not speak for Kuma, but for me, way back then, it often felt like a bit of a chess game, where both sides knew the other was constantly plotting and scheming to undermine their position...despite the fact that, somewhat ironicaly, the characters got along very well and managed to maintain very curteous relationship throughout.

A lot of this was likely mostly in my head, as I dont remember having to discuss or plan things oocly with Kuma. But that was/is part of the beauty of rping conflict with a player like him.

It just flows naturaly.
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Re: What do you seek in an antagonist?

Post by TimeAdept » Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:33 pm

ReverentBlade wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:38 am
One I have to match wits against and feel mentally challenged. A strong PvP build doesn't scare so much as a savvy schemer and manipulator. One who -isn't- moustache twirly obvious evil, but has a definite flair for the darkly dramatic.
hell yea I need a nemesis who I know can really mess w/ me and put the screws to me if I fail and do likewise to them

it's not fun if I ""win"" all the time and vice versa like there has to be a challenge to the nemesis you know

i mean it's actually more enjoyable to be losing and have stuff tor eact to than alwyas """winning"" (which can still be enjoyable)

IDK, my point is on every character I look for a "Nemesis" and I don't always find it and it makes me sad.

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Re: What do you seek in an antagonist?

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:25 pm

One that is willing to set up cool interactions, RP and plots, rather than just the threat of being PvP'd.

And also, when there is PvP, it's far more enjoyable when it has meaning. Too often you cut the bad guy/good guy down, and they just never mention it to anyone and it's as if nothing ever happened.
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Eters
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Re: What do you seek in an antagonist?

Post by Eters » Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:30 pm

Personally, not too much, just a plot, a purpose, a set objective that drives their actions forward.

For me an Antagonist has to have a purpose, not just there for the daily PvP slaughter-fest action.

Something "Protagonists" can interact with, try to figure out, and try to stop, rather than just daily oppose the hungry person that wishes to collect corpse-bashed skulls.

Violence can be justified, Violence is necessary towards a greater purpose, if Violence and PvP /are/ the purpose, that is boring and ends up burning out everyone pretty quickly, and in the end, not really much advances story-wise.

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Re: What do you seek in an antagonist?

Post by Petrifictus » Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:36 pm

Dr_Hazard89 wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:25 pm
One that is willing to set up cool interactions, RP and plots, rather than just the threat of being PvP'd.
Eters wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:30 pm
Personally, not too much, just a plot, a purpose, a set objective that drives their actions forward.

For me an Antagonist has to have a purpose, not just there for the daily PvP slaughter-fest action.

Something "Protagonists" can interact with, try to figure out, and try to stop, rather than just daily oppose the hungry person that wishes to collect corpse-bashed skulls.

Violence can be justified, Violence is necessary towards a greater purpose, if Violence and PvP /are/ the purpose, that is boring and ends up burning out everyone pretty quickly, and in the end, not really much advances story-wise.
Agreed.

The villains are only as good how far the heroes let them and vice versa. People should give more breathing room for the potential antagonists relationship to evolve rather than just rush into stomping and/or exile the other before they have time to do anything at all, killing all the potential which could last months or even a year.

It's also a good idea to keep OOC touch with your antagonist's player, so you may talk what is "yay" and "nay" if need be for the example or share ideas.

Also good to remember that "Good vs Evil" are not the only ideas for conflict as there's also "Law vs Chaos."
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Re: What do you seek in an antagonist?

Post by cptcuddlepants » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:06 pm

I like antagonists that have more depth than "My stat sheet says X, so I must Y, no exceptions ever, because X defines my character's personality."

I like being able to learn the reasoning behind the actions.

I like seeing remorse and regret and the questioning of one's own beliefs.

I like when bitter enemies and polar opposites are capable and willing to work together against larger threats.
Dr_Hazard89 wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:25 pm
One that is willing to set up cool interactions, RP and plots, rather than just the threat of being PvP'd.

And also, when there is PvP, it's far more enjoyable when it has meaning. Too often you cut the bad guy/good guy down, and they just never mention it to anyone and it's as if nothing ever happened.
Also, this.
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Re: What do you seek in an antagonist?

Post by PinataPlethora » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:11 pm

This is for long term play, not one day banditry type stuff:

- Have a goal (NOT based in PvP, and not necessarily a lofty one) which requires time and help from others. (Promotes group RP)

- Have a personal reason to pursue that goal at all costs, even if it means taking a temporary loss for a future gain. Try to let some hints toward this reason slip, along the way. (Allows the story to stretch out and continue)

- Use moral and personal dilemmas and obstacles to hinder opponents, rather than brute force, when possible. (Keeps the focus on the endgame, rather than meaningless skirmishes)

- Remain true to your character's core traits and values, whether honest or deceptive, thoughtful or careless, brutal or honorable... (Changing these traits after they've been clearly established will make the character feel contrived, and often seems like an OOC attempt to create a new advantage out of nowhere)

- Have a way of explaining why you keep coming back, despite sixty of your piked heads making up Cordor's new outer fence, and make it cost something or change you in some way. Play it out in a way that lets word or rumor of your methods reach your opponents. (Deity help if you're super pious, group help if you have a following, Science! if you're Vippin...)

- Always remember that your metric for success is not the same as your opponents'. If you blow up Cordor and the explosion takes you with it, you still won, regardless of how many smaller victories your opponents achieved in the meantime. It's not your job to "lose". You're running in a different race.

All of this is meant to create a personality which your opponents can come to know, and discuss when you're not around. If your character lacks humanity, then victory - whether through death, defeat, capture, or redemption - will be far less satisfying. A faceless enemy can be fun in the short term, but there's not much more to fighting it than assembling an army and figuring out where the next fight will happen. A good antagonist polarizes people by having an understandable purpose, usually to right a perceived wrong, though that perception may be warped.

Question number one for any aspiring antagonist is, why are you doing this? Everything else should fall into place from there.

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Re: What do you seek in an antagonist?

Post by msterswrdsmn » Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:55 pm

Two villians that stand out in my mind are Azur (ex stonehold Dreadmaster) and Pelagius (Banite)

Azur stood out because he was able to make getting captured an enjoyable experience for everyone, rather than a two hour one-way torture session. I don't think at any point in time Spike was tied up/restrained for any longer than necessary (moving from point A to B) so the whole "you're strapped down while I pluck your eyes out" never happened. The closest thing we got to torture was Spike getting thrown in the arena cage and Azur summoning everything he had at me (Rest in peace, Yogurt the tiger).

Eventually ended with Spike dying, but hey, i'm a prisoner with improvised weapons; im not supposed to win here! Actually, who cares about winning. This is fun! At one point, Azurs player (Rokketer) and Black Wendigo both made new characters, and all three of us played together in the mines as banite mining slaves for a while. Good times. I think this was ongoing for like, 2-3 RL days?

Pelaguis stood out because he had a very real, relatable reason for being how he was (a banite). There was a mutual respect between him and Mifune, and both characters were able to speak civily to each other (had a brief religious debate once). Yes, we're enemies. Yes, we're supposed to be smacking each other. But it was nice having an opposing rp outlet that wasn't just straight to PVP every time. There was a bit of overlap between the two as well, and it was interesting seeing two people with similar ideals on opposite ends of the alignment spectrum. Fun fact; Helm can be worshiped by evil characters, and an extreme interpretation of Helmite faith is really, really close to Banite ideology.

So...short version?
1. Making things enjoyable for both sides
2. Skipping the "strap you down and torture you" part
3. Being believable

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Re: What do you seek in an antagonist?

Post by thingsicantdo » Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:25 pm

PinataPlethora wrote:
Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:11 pm
This is for long term play, not one day banditry type stuff:

- Have a goal (NOT based in PvP, and not necessarily a lofty one) which requires time and help from others. (Promotes group RP)

- Have a personal reason to pursue that goal at all costs, even if it means taking a temporary loss for a future gain. Try to let some hints toward this reason slip, along the way. (Allows the story to stretch out and continue)

- Use moral and personal dilemmas and obstacles to hinder opponents, rather than brute force, when possible. (Keeps the focus on the endgame, rather than meaningless skirmishes)

- Remain true to your character's core traits and values, whether honest or deceptive, thoughtful or careless, brutal or honorable... (Changing these traits after they've been clearly established will make the character feel contrived, and often seems like an OOC attempt to create a new advantage out of nowhere)

- Have a way of explaining why you keep coming back, despite sixty of your piked heads making up Cordor's new outer fence, and make it cost something or change you in some way. Play it out in a way that lets word or rumor of your methods reach your opponents. (Deity help if you're super pious, group help if you have a following, Science! if you're Vippin...)

- Always remember that your metric for success is not the same as your opponents'. If you blow up Cordor and the explosion takes you with it, you still won, regardless of how many smaller victories your opponents achieved in the meantime. It's not your job to "lose". You're running in a different race.

All of this is meant to create a personality which your opponents can come to know, and discuss when you're not around. If your character lacks humanity, then victory - whether through death, defeat, capture, or redemption - will be far less satisfying. A faceless enemy can be fun in the short term, but there's not much more to fighting it than assembling an army and figuring out where the next fight will happen. A good antagonist polarizes people by having an understandable purpose, usually to right a perceived wrong, though that perception may be warped.

Question number one for any aspiring antagonist is, why are you doing this? Everything else should fall into place from there.
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Opustus
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Re: What do you seek in an antagonist?

Post by Opustus » Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:18 am

As for the function of a good villain, I agree with many here that inclusion and getting things done are crucial. As evil, you can be more reckless and wanton about it, too.

As for the style of a good villain, I have a huge bias for planar evil; brooding big types in black spandex. Hawt.

My best ever experience of a villain was with a character who simply swore a lot. Breaking the rules gives you that extra bad boy vice? Snuggle a Bugbear the genteel.
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Re: What do you seek in an antagonist?

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:20 am

As enjoyable as personal antogonists are (i was almost one or rather almost had ine by my lack of activity never saw the climax of the best friens made into mortal enemies), I kind of miss the more iconic static long reigning villians that add a sense of stability and something for even bon protagonist characters to have a goal of one day being able to rise up and defeat said evil (even if they themselves never do) i still would love to see something like silent hand again which would require multiple rogue like characters to be played beyond your typical 3 to 6 month story and conclusion.
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Re: What do you seek in an antagonist?

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:09 am

RIP the Silent Hand

Bring back Iris, Durin and Manes

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Re: What do you seek in an antagonist?

Post by JediMindTrix » Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:35 am

Character wise, I enjoy evil that thinks it's in the right. But honestly I like cartoon obvious evil every once in a while too. Sometimes straightforward is a breath of fresh air. I enjoy evil with humor injected into it.

I like antagonists that can scheme, plan and then ultimately back their mojo up in a fight because at the end of the day it's difficult to respect someone that dies to a sneeze or a breeze.
Last edited by JediMindTrix on Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What do you seek in an antagonist?

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:57 am

TimeAdept wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:09 am
RIP the Silent Hand

Bring back Iris, Durin and Manes
Who are they?
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TimeAdept
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Re: What do you seek in an antagonist?

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:13 am

Iris Velaris, Durin (last name I forget, a dwarf), and Ulrich Manes were the founding members of the Silent Hand.

The dagger that killed Manes is in the Cordor museum. There's also a road in Cordor named for him.

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Jagel
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Re: What do you seek in an antagonist?

Post by Jagel » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:22 am

Wasn’t it Drake Shadowsbane and Manes? Rumor also has it that Ully was killed by an arrow *shifty eyes*

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Re: What do you seek in an antagonist?

Post by StrykerMontgomery » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:51 pm

Drake shadowsbane is a name I actaully recognize pre split, but I don't actually know whom the foundng members are or how gar they go back. Drake though had a wonderful alias for making it easier for new players to find the faction of interest to begin with. Knowing someone is part of a potentially fictional organization and actually proving it were two different matters.
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Re: What do you seek in an antagonist?

Post by Durvayas » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:24 am

Remember that an antagonist need not be someone diametrically opposed to your character. You can have antagonists that are the same alignment, race, and/or religion as your character, even the same goals.

I think my best antagonist was my drow matron Sinithra's rival Jazhard. He was a drow, ostensibly lolthite(though a suspected heretic, naturally), but most importantly, he ran the merchant consortium in Andunor, making him immediately a rival to my own merchant house.

We had great back and forth RP for months, each trying to one-up the other, undermining the other, publicly smearing the other, framing the other, trying to usurp control of the market, and other projects from eachother. We never had any real PvP between the two groups(save the odd assassin(actual assassin, not gank hit squad) hired to take out the other), and it was always a tense, but fun battle of wits.
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