Rules of Engagement.

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Invader_Nym
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Rules of Engagement.

Post by Invader_Nym » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:39 pm

Can someone explain to me how a stealth class can execute a surprise attack given the current rules of engagement? This is not a rhetorical question, I'm genuinely interested to know.

By signalling your presence through roleplay and being forced to await a response, you're essentially giving the opponent all the time they need to mentally prepare, which completely undermines the purpose of a surprise attack.

Rwby
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Re: Rules of Engagement.

Post by Rwby » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:44 pm

It's important to note the roleplay qualifier does not have to be _Right_ before the encounter.

Roleplaying the threat of attack, then stalking them and attacking has been noted to qualify before hand, particularly for assassins.

Finding your target in a taverne, taking them for a drink, getting to know them, letting them get drunk, departing, returning in stealth and brutally murdering them a few minutes later is acceptable. [To the best of my knowledge.]

You have to roleplay with them, not signal clearly in character you're going to murder them.

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DM Atropos
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Re: Rules of Engagement.

Post by DM Atropos » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:16 pm

There must be interactive RP connoting the intent to attack immediately preceding the PVP with the notable exception of assassins PVPing a bountied target. They have 24 hours post interaction to attack.

RWBY, your example is not correct and would result in consequences. There MUST be RP conveying the intent to PVP prior to PVP. The only difference between assassins and other classes is that there can be a time lapse for assassins.
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Re: Rules of Engagement.

Post by R0GUE » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:19 pm

Rwby wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:44 pm
You have to roleplay with them, not signal clearly in character you're going to murder them.
Really? I thought the other player had to at least give some sort of consent in the way of RP. Like I could see your tavern suggestion working, but only if at the end of the drinking, you say "you should be careful my friend, I hear there is a price on your head" and the target responded "let them come I am not afraid of a base assassin!"

But if the player RP's back, "truly? Gods! I did not know, I should rush home as fast as possible." You could assume consent was not given.

Just RPing with him and having a friendly drink with the guy doesn't seem like your really giving him a chance to decline PvP.

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Re: Rules of Engagement.

Post by Invader_Nym » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:23 pm

DM Atropos wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:16 pm
There must be interactive RP connoting the intent to attack immediately preceding the PVP with the notable exception of assassins PVPing a bountied target. They have 24 hours post interaction to attack.

RWBY, your example is not correct and would result in consequences. There MUST be RP conveying the intent to PVP prior to PVP. The only difference between assassins and other classes is that there can be a time lapse for assassins.
The original question still stands. Doesn't this rule make a surprise attack essentially impossible?

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DM Atropos
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Re: Rules of Engagement.

Post by DM Atropos » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:28 pm

R0GUE wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:19 pm
Rwby wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:44 pm
You have to roleplay with them, not signal clearly in character you're going to murder them.
Really? I thought the other player had to at least give some sort of consent in the way of RP. Like I could see your tavern suggestion working, but only if at the end of the drinking, you say "you should be careful my friend, I hear there is a price on your head" and the target responded "let them come I am not afraid of a base assassin!"

But if the player RP's back, "truly? Gods! I did not know, I should rush home as fast as possible." You could assume consent was not given.

Just RPing with him and having a friendly drink with the guy doesn't seem like your really giving him a chance to decline PvP.
You do not get to decline PVP on this server, consent is not necessary. IC actions have IC consequences and one of them is occasionally getting your clock cleaned.

You can try to run, or use a lens, an attunement potion, get to a boat, what have you, but OOC consent is never required
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Re: Rules of Engagement.

Post by R0GUE » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:44 pm

DM Atropos wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:28 pm
R0GUE wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:19 pm
Rwby wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:44 pm
You have to roleplay with them, not signal clearly in character you're going to murder them.
Really? I thought the other player had to at least give some sort of consent in the way of RP. Like I could see your tavern suggestion working, but only if at the end of the drinking, you say "you should be careful my friend, I hear there is a price on your head" and the target responded "let them come I am not afraid of a base assassin!"

But if the player RP's back, "truly? Gods! I did not know, I should rush home as fast as possible." You could assume consent was not given.

Just RPing with him and having a friendly drink with the guy doesn't seem like your really giving him a chance to decline PvP.
You do not get to decline PVP on this server, consent is not necessary. IC actions have IC consequences and one of them is occasionally getting your clock cleaned.

You can try to run, or use a lens, an attunement potion, get to a boat, what have you, but OOC consent is never required
Hmmmm I see...

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Re: Rules of Engagement.

Post by JediMindTrix » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:02 pm

Invader_Nym wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:23 pm
The original question still stands. Doesn't this rule make a surprise attack essentially impossible?
As a non-assassin, solo, it's impossible. In a party, someone not stealthed does the talking/declaration attack then you attack from stealth.

Also, you do not need to RP prior to engaging in an already active PvP.

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Re: Rules of Engagement.

Post by Rwby » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:06 pm

I really struggle to PvP anyone without feeling like I'm breaking rule 1, myself.

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Re: Rules of Engagement.

Post by Rwby » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:09 pm

JediMindTrix wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:02 pm
Invader_Nym wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:23 pm
The original question still stands. Doesn't this rule make a surprise attack essentially impossible?
As a non-assassin, solo, it's impossible. In a party, someone not stealthed does the talking/declaration attack then you attack from stealth.

Also, you do not need to RP prior to engaging in an already active PvP.
Is that legit? I thought ~You~ had to participate in some of RP with the victim, not just someone you were associated or partied with?

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Re: Rules of Engagement.

Post by JediMindTrix » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:27 pm

It's legit. Been this way as long as I can remember

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Re: Rules of Engagement.

Post by msterswrdsmn » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:52 pm

Its not impossible to sneak-kill someone as a stealth character without being an assassin.

-Get a group: You could all do a mass luynch mob, or you could have another, unstealthed party member make the approach and roleplay (Hi, i'm with the guild "stabby-gimme-your-gold". Thats 10000 for road tolls, please), then have the stealth members jump out an attack when appropriate ("hey! He didn't pay the toll!")

-Self Defense. Not so much from stealth, but if you're playing an obnoxious character whose done a fairly good job of hiding their mehcanical power, a lot of people just can't resist the urge to smack you, or at least come off as wanting to smack you if you aggrevate them enough. Counter when the moment is right and...ta-dah~ Not an assassination, but legitimate self defense! Or so my lawyer says.

-Wait. You don't have to RP and IMMEDIATLY jump them. Eveyr time I've done this, I took a timestop/deathspell to the face. Run up, RP (give them a message, hostile them, etc) then get the hell out of dodge and look for a chance to stalk/re-engage them.

Theres more, but the short version is: if you're not an assassin, you need to be a little more creative.

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Re: Rules of Engagement.

Post by R0GUE » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:15 pm

Rwby wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:06 pm
I really struggle to PvP anyone without feeling like I'm breaking rule 1, myself.
That's why I assumed you needed some consent tbh...

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Re: Rules of Engagement.

Post by Wytchee » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:22 pm

No consent is needed but it's always nice to give/be given a way out of PvP should a confrontation arise. Barring specific circumstances where PvP is inevitable (hunting a warlock, interfaction battle, etc), I think it's generally against the spirit of this server to constantly go into confrontations expecting to PvP. Roleplay is more about cooperative storytelling than it is about competition (that's not to say competition can't be cooperative, though!), and I'm quick to distance myself from any player who I think is a bit too over-eager to test out his or her uber power build.

Just sayin'.

So you're an assassin with a hit out on Joe Faction Leader. Is your character duty-bound to fulfill that contract, or can Joe be coaxed into paying out a little more than the contract is worth for his life?

You're a paladin who spots a demon-summoning warlock. Do you straight up smite him, or bring him in for interrogation?

You're a kobold chieftain who spots some weaklings, and you're keen to assert your dominance. Do you murder them all to prove your strenght, or do you demand tribute in exchange for their lives?

Be creative, and be cooperative, always before the nagging urge to be competitive.
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Re: Rules of Engagement.

Post by thingsicantdo » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:48 pm

not to be that guy, DM Atropos, but i've never heard of that rule. I know that assassins were given special leeway with contracts to break the RP before PvP rule before, but any rule that you must hostile RP immediately before combat is news.

previously, hostile RP, and a *REASONABLE* amount of time in between combat was ok (case by case basis, i've never seen a hard rule, like 24 hours. i would imagine that would be too long for most cases), and even suggested.

if what you're saying is true, this needs to be recorded somewhere. it's not on the front page or the wiki as far as i'm able to find

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Re: Rules of Engagement.

Post by Hunter548 » Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:49 pm

Rwby wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:09 pm
JediMindTrix wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:02 pm
Invader_Nym wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:23 pm
The original question still stands. Doesn't this rule make a surprise attack essentially impossible?
As a non-assassin, solo, it's impossible. In a party, someone not stealthed does the talking/declaration attack then you attack from stealth.

Also, you do not need to RP prior to engaging in an already active PvP.
Is that legit? I thought ~You~ had to participate in some of RP with the victim, not just someone you were associated or partied with?
Think about it this way. A 5 man drow raiding party comes up at Minmir, and runs into a 6 man paladin patrol. If you have to roleplay with everyone rather than it being a group on group situation, then these two groups have to line up like baseball teams so everyone can shake everyone else's hand, otherwise conflict between them is breaking the rules. This is obviously nonsensical.
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Re: Rules of Engagement.

Post by Wytchee » Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:52 pm

Hunter548 wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:49 pm
Rwby wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:09 pm
JediMindTrix wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:02 pm


As a non-assassin, solo, it's impossible. In a party, someone not stealthed does the talking/declaration attack then you attack from stealth.

Also, you do not need to RP prior to engaging in an already active PvP.
Is that legit? I thought ~You~ had to participate in some of RP with the victim, not just someone you were associated or partied with?
Think about it this way. A 5 man drow raiding party comes up at Minmir, and runs into a 6 man paladin patrol. If you have to roleplay with everyone rather than it being a group on group situation, then these two groups have to line up like baseball teams so everyone can shake everyone else's hand, otherwise conflict between them is breaking the rules. This is obviously nonsensical.
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Dirac
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Re: Rules of Engagement.

Post by Dirac » Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:59 pm

Been playing this game since it came out and it's always the same story.

Wiki rules are super vague and all the DMs tend to have a different view on what the PvP rule is...

So here is what I do. I find the most dirty, filthy PvPers on the server and pick fights with them. They generally don't give two shits about PvP rules and typically never whine to a DM and if they do, they are usually on the "PvP whore" list anyway so no one cares.

It feels really nasty like going to a whore-house, but it bypasses all this complicated, feely, whiny stuff that goes on when grown men get butt hurt when you stab their pixels.

GOOD LUCK!

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Re: Rules of Engagement.

Post by JediMindTrix » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:04 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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DM Sollers
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Re: Rules of Engagement.

Post by DM Sollers » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:15 pm

Dirac wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:59 pm
Been playing this game since it came out and it's always the same story.

Wiki rules are super vague and all the DMs tend to have a different view on what the PvP rule is...

So here is what I do. I find the most dirty, filthy PvPers on the server and pick fights with them. They generally don't give two shits about PvP rules and typically never whine to a DM and if they do, they are usually on the "PvP whore" list anyway so no one cares.

It feels really nasty like going to a whore-house, but it bypasses all this complicated, feely, whiny stuff that goes on when grown men get butt hurt when you stab their pixels.

GOOD LUCK!
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Re: Rules of Engagement.

Post by Wytchee » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:26 pm

Dirac wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:59 pm
Been playing this game since it came out and it's always the same story.

Wiki rules are super vague and all the DMs tend to have a different view on what the PvP rule is...

So here is what I do. I find the most dirty, filthy PvPers on the server and pick fights with them. They generally don't give two shits about PvP rules and typically never whine to a DM and if they do, they are usually on the "PvP whore" list anyway so no one cares.

It feels really nasty like going to a whore-house, but it bypasses all this complicated, feely, whiny stuff that goes on when grown men get butt hurt when you stab their pixels.

GOOD LUCK!
Is this a bad take? I think it might be a bad take. :?
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Re: Rules of Engagement.

Post by Twily » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:40 pm

While groups do generally end up being counted as a single entity in regards to RP prior to PvP, I do feel the need to point out that such doesn't mean it can be manipulated.

If it's done in a way to deliberately play the system so that you can kill others in a cheesy manner that doesn't promote story and without them having any sort of say, it's not likely to be tolerated even if it does follow the letter of the PvP rules.

Ie, someone is mad at another:
They get a party of 9 of their friends together, all of which are have stealth.
The one person with the grudge makes it clear their target is going to die now but only does the bare minimum interaction required before PvP(and doesn't dislike them, since they don't plan to attack at all themselves and don't want to trigger a lens retreat), and then the 9 people in stealth dislike half a second before popping out of stealth by attacking all at the same time, obviously killing the guy, and then they corpse bash him.
If a story like that got to the DMs, I'm sure there'd be consequences; It's an extreme example, but it shows that the rules aren't always so clear cut, given that it could be argued the above example doesn't violate the letter of any of the PvP rules. (The Poor Gamesmanship portion of Rule4 comes to mind)

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Miaou
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Re: Rules of Engagement.

Post by Miaou » Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:07 am

This conversation has happened before, and as expected the tone tends to go sour. If you have questions about PvP, Rules, or mechanics please send a message to the Active DM group on the forums or try to reach one ingame.

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