Metagaming?

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DarkPerin
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Metagaming?

Post by DarkPerin » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:41 am

So here is a proposition. Assuming anything automatically, because in game mechanics always make it such, and using that meta game knowledge IC for purposes... This would be metagaming, correct?

Example: Say a human decides to be an outcast. Immediately, the way EVERYONE goes to find out if you are actually an outcast, is if you can speak undercommon or not. Now, color me crazy, but outcasts didn't start in the Underdark, but were forced there by circumstances. Nor did they immediately know the language. Languages take time. This is why we have a system on it, where it takes nearly a year to learn. So, an outcast wouldn't necessarily, just magically know the language.

But everyone relies on this, to identify these characters. I could be wrong, but that is using OOC knowledge, and therefore metagaming.

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Re: Metagaming?

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:57 am

Someone below who doesn't speak the local language would draw suspicion. Unless they are wearing a collar/can be vouched for it would be in their best interest to speak as little as possible until they are able to fit in and draw less suspicion.

A person can speak or not speak undercommon regardless of if they are an outcast or not. You are able to learn languages through the phrasebook system, so there's no way to accurately metagame if someone is an outcast just by them knowing or not knowning undercommon.
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Astegard
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Re: Metagaming?

Post by Astegard » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:00 am

Its because there is no other way of quikly identifying outcasts, a monster race on the surface is pretty obvious.
However outcasts wont want to be slapped with a "is an outcast" in their descriptions as this limits their surface activities.

Currently through the effort of some UD players a writ/document system is being put into place to identify yourself as a "legal" visitor/surfacer. (to prevent this metagaming, kudos to those who set it up and enforce it).

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ForgottenBhaal
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Re: Metagaming?

Post by ForgottenBhaal » Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:00 am

There was. It has been abandoned as it takes too much time.

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Ebonstar
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Re: Metagaming?

Post by Ebonstar » Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:02 am

this is from earlier this morning in the hub where the OP was present as was I and a few others. if someone doesnt want to be accosted, then dont make your character stand out like a disco ball in a dark room while ignoring the culture you have walked into.

we love new players in the UD but please dont think chosing outcast background instantly makes you one of the family. Humans are given writs and must earn their keep in the eyes of the ruling councils and normal denizens of the Underdark. They are going to be called on being in the UD if they are not known.

Please learn the basic lore before you come into the dark.
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Re: Metagaming?

Post by Rwby » Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:22 am

Uh oh.
I sense threadlock and in game issues being brought to the forum.

If you're feeling unhappy about the way your character was treated in game, and can't resolve it with the other players, please, please email the DM Team. I promise they won't bite.

But everything said so far in this thread has been said before, and it will end in tears.

DarkPerin
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Re: Metagaming?

Post by DarkPerin » Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:19 pm

I've been roleplaying on the server, before the split, and in the UD, for years. When Draaka ruled for ages, and before Ste'te'lie splintered. Please don't presume. I know the lore.

I am aware of the lore. I simply don't care to roleplay with people that metagame based off a language. Nor was this made to bring attention to earlier, but the problem as a whole. Not the first time, or the first thing I've been metagamed for in the UD, and it only seems to be something I've run into, in the UD.

People need to stop using meta knowledge of game mechanics, and that is that.

Quote:
"A person can speak or not speak undercommon regardless of if they are an outcast or not. You are able to learn languages through the phrasebook system, so there's no way to accurately metagame if someone is an outcast just by them knowing or not knowning undercommon."

You are right. But I've had people say in character, "Prove you are a citizen. Speak under common." I am an outcast by the way. So, I do know the language. But it isn't behavior that adds to the RP. I feel like the RP would feel better, if Undercommon was taken out of the base language for an outcast. If he wants to fit in, make him learn it in character. And make people be more creative about who belongs, and who doesn't, short of, "Speak X language."

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Re: Metagaming?

Post by Sab1 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:03 pm

I thought an outcast knowing undercommon automatically was taken away. Only way it would be the same on the surface would be if UD races had to learn common (which I think would be cool). Honestly I think outcasts should be accosted more (I don't mean pvp) but just becuase one is an outcast fro mthe surface doesn't mean they won't harass you until you prove yourself to them. Just take it as an incentive to learn the language faster that these people wil lcontinue to harass you until you learn. Now if IC they say ohh you not an outcast becuase you don't speak this tongue wpuld seem odd, but I see no issue with them asking new faces speak our tongue, prove you belong etc....

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Cortex
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Re: Metagaming?

Post by Cortex » Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:11 pm

Sab1 wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:03 pm
I thought an outcast knowing undercommon automatically was taken away.
I think that's only for normal characters becoming outcasts, while "natural outcasts" have it.
:)

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Dracorid3r
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Re: Metagaming?

Post by Dracorid3r » Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:23 pm

Nope, still there.

As an outcast myself , I have found the biggest thing that seperates us from the average surfacer is usually 1. Speaking under common automatically,
2. Most outcasts are a bit more relaxed, socially around monsterous races (which is like everyone except a few people)
3. No collars.
4. At least in my case, I buddy up with one of the important people in UD( you know, the sharps) so I rarely get asked if I’m supposed to be there.

As for metagaming, well.. yeah it probably is, even putting something like the pirate system (this person is a dread pirate etc) in description would be a significant hamper on surface... but I suppose that would be the point.. if you’re an outcast.. you shouldnt be able to just waltz into cordor no craps given.

I suppose that might also be a sort of metagaming, until the disguise system is fixed, I doubt there is much you can do..

I have to say though, I found it quite annoying that I couldnt use the boat from crows nest to get to other places, but I actually thought it was cool, I had to lie out of my teeth and come with an excuse to a few people to manage not to blow my cover.. and make a journey through the swamp to explore..


In the end, I dont know if there is a whole lot you could do right now, short of the pirate system for outcasts, which would make people actually have to read descriptions and which may make bluff and perform useful again for us “spy’s” .. it’s all about RP.. and kudos to those drow that make life interesting by having to explain why you’re in the UD, and prove trustworthy, free humans are kinda a minority right now in the UD, imo.

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Karris the Anarchist
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Re: Metagaming?

Post by Karris the Anarchist » Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:32 pm

Make outcasts have an outcast tattoo branded into their forehead for heinous crimes against humanity. Problem solved!
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Dracorid3r
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Re: Metagaming?

Post by Dracorid3r » Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:35 pm

Eh, dont know about a forehead, but possibly chest brand or arm

MoreThanThree
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Re: Metagaming?

Post by MoreThanThree » Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:15 pm

Being a human in Andunor who can't speak Undercommon is like being a human in Myon who can't speak Elven.
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Blood on my Lips
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Re: Metagaming?

Post by Blood on my Lips » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:36 pm

I would say that it's a safe assumption that if you are an uncollared creature and you belong in the UD you would be able to speak undercommon. I wouldn't call that metagaming.

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Re: Metagaming?

Post by JediMindTrix » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:14 pm

Sab1 wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:03 pm
(which I think would be cool).
I think it would be MEGA cool too

Tourmaline
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Re: Metagaming?

Post by Tourmaline » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:52 pm

If I went to Paris and wore a striped shirt and beret and carried a baguette around I may be able to pass as a native for a little while, but that would end as soon as someone actually spoke French to me. Same in Anundor, I don’t think it is egregious metagaming to see if someone speaks the language.

Learning to speak the language is also how surfaces spies and wanna be outcasts can mingle below so it can be turned against the Undercommon police rather easily.

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Re: Metagaming?

Post by TimeAdept » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:53 pm

Blood on my Lips wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:36 pm
I would say that it's a safe assumption that if you are an uncollared creature and you belong in the UD you would be able to speak undercommon. I wouldn't call that metagaming.

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Cortex
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Re: Metagaming?

Post by Cortex » Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:15 pm

I think it'd be a case by case basis. If someone is pretending to be "one of us" and then turns out he doesn't speak undercommon, it'd be an eyebrow raiser, however, if someone is minding his own business and then is heavily questioned upon not knowing undercommon, I'd find it unfair for multiple reasons. I've had shady characters visit Andunor on business or other unimportant reasons, and I do remember on one occasion I was interrogated for no particular reason and almost PvPed when my character was only doing trading.

To jump on the conclusion someone is a "surfacer spy" or something equally dumb because of the language is silly at best, Andunor is a merchant town, you should expect it to get visitors from other places, including the surface. Being gratuitously aggressive would be counter-productive for the trade hub.
:)

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Re: Metagaming?

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:45 pm

DarkPerin wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:19 pm
You are right. But I've had people say in character, "Prove you are a citizen. Speak under common." I am an outcast by the way. So, I do know the language. But it isn't behavior that adds to the RP. I feel like the RP would feel better, if Undercommon was taken out of the base language for an outcast. If he wants to fit in, make him learn it in character. And make people be more creative about who belongs, and who doesn't, short of, "Speak X language."

I believe your perspective may be slightly skewed here due to an event that didn't unfold in a way you think it should have. While I am loathe to invoke Godwin in any thread, do you believe it would have been "metagaming" for, say, a soldier in Nazi germany to demand proof of citizenship by speaking German, knowing that there were Judaic people hiding in their midst and being tasked with finding them out? (The solution here, as Cortex covers, would be to claim to be passing through as a merchant/for the merchants, thus avoiding the suspicion of the citizenship lie in the first place).

In this case, the "monsters" of the underdark are emulating the monsters of real life; if you claim to be a citizen of any culture and your citizenship is under suspicion, making sure they speak the local cultural language is the quickest, easiest, biggest checkmark on the list, and Andunor has definitely had its share of interlopers and infiltrators.

Likewise, if you walked into France (Cordor) and started speaking German (Undercommon), it's not likely you would've made too many friends.

The entire scenario absolutely makes sense- perhaps you can work together with the person to find a way to draw the tension of the situation out into something interesting for both sides?
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Re: Metagaming?

Post by Ecstatic » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:53 pm

And that’s all folks.
TANSTAAFL

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