Is Arelith still a "party" server?

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Scurvy Cur
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Re: Is Arelith still a "party" server?

Post by Scurvy Cur » Sat May 12, 2018 1:31 am

There is no such thing as an RP build.

There are only RP players.


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Baron Saturday
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Re: Is Arelith still a "party" server?

Post by Baron Saturday » Sat May 12, 2018 1:58 am

To claim that dungeons don't create RP is somewhat narrow-minded. They may not create RP that you are interested in, but the strength of Arelith is that it has something for everyone. All that Gnarh is implying is that there is a lack of content for people interested in challenging party adventures.

Also, and I don't know why we're talking about this in this thread, but there is no correlation between build strength and RP quality.
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-XXX-
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Re: Is Arelith still a "party" server?

Post by -XXX- » Sat May 12, 2018 6:19 am

One of the ways of how to assess the "quality" of RP is by the amount of players that get included in it.

Stronger builds vastly expand the options of potential RP avenues to explore. Options that you need if you want to attract other players with the events that your character creates.

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Re: Is Arelith still a "party" server?

Post by Rebel4ever » Sat May 12, 2018 9:08 am


The best roleplayers in the history of Arelith have often opted for powerful builds.
Then they don't meet my conditions do they? The point was that if you power build its not for RP reasons...people who stat and build true to their RP have weak builds so them having the strongest items would bring them up to par. Why would they have to Stat it? being a good roleplayer doesn't mean your not extremely power hungry. Stating a gimped build would be pretty good evidence your not just some power hungry player which in turn makes you a better choice to hold such an item.
Stronger builds vastly expand the options of potential RP avenues to explore. Options that you need if you want to attract other players with the events that your character creates.
I completely disgaree, often very interesting roleplay builds are pretty weak mechanicallly, you can see it throughout the server the "dip" classes are just for skills and nothing to do with roleplay 90% of the time. Playing a person with 8 charisma because it impacts the game mechanically very little is another example of corner cutting, i have seen ONE roleplayer RP a low charisma character. However basically what your saying is being more powerful mechanically gives more RP...i doubt the DM's would say that is what they wanted.

That being said I don't see a lack of parties when i am on at all...actually i always try to grab people to hunt with even if it gimps the experience its mostly for roleplay and to keep things interesting. However i do see why people like to go out of their own and grind/farm/loot as its pretty good for gold and items.
Last edited by Rebel4ever on Sat May 12, 2018 9:35 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Is Arelith still a "party" server?

Post by Aodh Lazuli » Sat May 12, 2018 9:13 am

Cortex is right.
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Re: Is Arelith still a "party" server?

Post by Void » Sat May 12, 2018 11:47 am

Rebel4ever wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 9:08 am
The point was that if you power build its not for RP reasons...people who stat and build true to their RP have weak builds so them having the strongest items would bring them up to par.
I believe you're mistaken, and I wish you ever saw powerbuilding madness that happened on nwn2 servers.

To my experience arelith has been extremely forgiving, and you'll be definitely able to ride pretty much any build from level 1 to level 21.

As for roleplaying low stats and 8 cha specificaly, you should pay attention to what people do.

Charisma is not beautiy, and rather confidence and ability to command... or character strength. I've meet multiple people signaling that quirk strongly.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: Is Arelith still a "party" server?

Post by -XXX- » Sat May 12, 2018 11:48 am

Rebel4ever wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 9:08 am
stuff
From what I have seen and experienced, the DMs tend to reward efforts that aim to include more players, with the goal to bring an engaging and interactive source of fun for as many players as possible. There's evidence that players with stronger builds tend to pull that off more often and so we might just as well say that we could find a correlation between strong builds and good RP (proving the previous statement that no such correlation exists invalid).

Hinting that someone else's RP does not live up to standards because they neglect to portray stat X correctly essentially equals to saying that someone is doing it wrong. I'd advise to reconsider doing that.

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Re: Is Arelith still a "party" server?

Post by Rebel4ever » Sat May 12, 2018 12:15 pm

Charisma is not beautiy, and rather confidence and ability to command... or character strength. I've meet multiple people signaling that quirk strongly.
Charisma - compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others.

The opposite being - compelling unattractive or repulsive that can disencourge devotion in others.

Lets not mix up Charisma and leadership.
From what I have seen and experienced, the DMs tend to reward efforts that aim to include more players, with the goal to bring an engaging and interactive source of fun for as many players as possible. There's evidence that players with stronger builds tend to pull that off more often and so we might just as well say that we could find a correlation between strong builds and good RP (proving the previous statement that no such correlation exists invalid).
No idea what your trying to argue about, are you suggesting people with weak builds are just too stupid too make strong builds? Are you suggesting they are not as good roleplayers? Seriously i have no idea what your talking about. What i was speaking about was totally different being division of power.
Hinting that someone else's RP does not live up to standards because they neglect to portray stat X correctly essentially equals to saying that someone is doing it wrong. I'd advise to reconsider doing that.
Hinting they are doing something wrong? No. Saying they don't roleplay their stats which they don't have to - YES!. Saying its a good indictation of min/max building - yes. Is it always the case? - not at all just an indication it suits Half orcs to have low charisma for example.

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Re: Is Arelith still a "party" server?

Post by Void » Sat May 12, 2018 12:27 pm

Rebel4ever wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 12:15 pm
Charisma - compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others.
It is ability to command and character strength.
Because being pretty does not make magic items obey your will faster. (charisma gives UMD bonus, and increases spell power for bards/sorceres, along with turn undead strength for clerics).
Beautiful character can have low charisma (wall flower).
A drill seargant will have high one, even if he's scarred and ugly. Because grizzly bears will run away form him in fear.

Also...

For example, Baalzebul has 25 charisma. Here's what Baalzebul look like:
Image

Beautiful, isn't it?
---------
Rebel4ever wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 12:15 pm
Saying they don't roleplay their stats
It is not a good idea to do that either. Thsi stuff should be handled by DM and not by "concerned citizens". Because when "concerned citizens" interfere, it results in conflicts and OOC grudges.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: Is Arelith still a "party" server?

Post by Rebel4ever » Sat May 12, 2018 12:38 pm

It is ability to command and character strength.
Because being pretty does not make magic items obey your will faster.
Beautiful character can have low charisma (wall flower).
A drill seargant will have high one, even if he's scarred and ugly. Because grizzly bears will run away form him in fear.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/charisma - Argue with the dictionary. That is the definition of the word like it or not.
In terms of D&D a demon would be high charisma i suppose due to intimidation and fear rather than ability to inspire. The likes of Dyrads, Nymphs and Fareies...are high charisma because of leadership skills? i think not. Stats of creatures in D&D can often be strange though a banshee has 17 charisma...shes a HORRIFIC undead spirit and gives no indications of leading anything.
It is not a good idea to do that either. Thsi stuff should be handled by DM and not by "concerned citizens". Because when "concerned citizens" interfere, it results in conflicts and OOC grudges.
Its not a rule to RP your stats. So far as i have read it will only ever make a difference in a DM event. You assume i have someone in mind? I am not the most brilliant at RP my stats either....but the people who go out their way, weaken their build, take otherwise useless skills deserve credit for it. I don't do this....i am not one of these people! I just know some folk who are. I hate to see them being left further behind due to a power creep just because they are more dedicated roleplayers.
Last edited by Rebel4ever on Sat May 12, 2018 12:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Is Arelith still a "party" server?

Post by Void » Sat May 12, 2018 12:49 pm

Rebel4ever wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 12:38 pm
It is ability to command and character strength.
Because being pretty does not make magic items obey your will faster.
Beautiful character can have low charisma (wall flower).
A drill seargant will have high one, even if he's scarred and ugly. Because grizzly bears will run away form him in fear.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/charisma - Argue with the dictionary. That is the definition of the word like it or not.
You're using wrong dictionary. Oxford dictionary definition is meaningless here.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm
You're dealing with D&D lawyerspeak. A word with common meaning that is unlike the meaning used by the system.
Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting. Charisma is most important for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to turn undead. Every creature has a Charisma score.
------------------
Rebel4ever wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 12:38 pm
You assume i have someone in mind? I am
I don't. I just don't recommend critizing how other people play their characters. I saw people before who loved to do that, and it never resulted in anything good happening.
Another forum ban, here we go again.

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Re: Is Arelith still a "party" server?

Post by Rebel4ever » Sat May 12, 2018 1:02 pm

I don't. I just don't recommend critizing how other people play their characters. I saw people before who loved to do that, and it never resulted in anything good happening.
I may have worded it poorly...i think people who do it deserve credit for it. Thats all.

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Re: Is Arelith still a "party" server?

Post by Baron Saturday » Sat May 12, 2018 5:44 pm

A few issues I see with your proposal, Rebel4ever - first and foremost being that having DMs give out powerful items is a very good way to generate feelings of jealousy and DM favoritism. I have seen it happen elsewhere, and it has literally destroyed servers, which is why I'm so glad that Arelith DMs don't engage in giving out magic items at all.

Second, Arelith is so large a community that DMs cannot possibly pay enough attention to all the players to determine which ones meet your criteria.

And third, if someone has opted to create a mechanically weak build for the purposes of RP, then clearly mechanical strength is not their goal, so what is the point of giving them powerful items? If they wanted a powerful character, well, they could have made one. It just seems like rewarding a cat with broccoli, you know?

Players who elect to RP their character's stats with extreme accuracy (and as has been shown in this thread, there are many ideas on how to RP a stat, so "accurate" RP of a stat or skill is pretty unquantifiable) are already potentially rewarded through RPR and, perhaps more importantly, through satisfaction with their own RP.
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Re: Is Arelith still a "party" server?

Post by Black Wendigo » Sat May 12, 2018 9:45 pm

People who RP do not need items given to them from DMs. On account of they don't feel as entitled to that as others

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Re: Is Arelith still a "party" server?

Post by Baron Saturday » Sat May 12, 2018 10:19 pm

I don't think anyone feels entitled to items from DMs.
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Re: Is Arelith still a "party" server?

Post by O-H41 » Sat May 12, 2018 11:59 pm

I think Arelith is less of a party server than it used to be because we get more XP than we used to. Compared to years ago, XP comes so quickly now. I found that the first ten or fifteen levels happened so quickly that I levelled up without even trying to level up. I know I could de-level myself, and I considered it, but didn't actually do it. As a result, I went out into the world of Surface and on to more challenging areas, having never really gained the core group of lowbie pals from all classes and all walks of life. So I've relied on a bit of "psst, hey, it's me, you might remember me as --" OOC on the forums or in tells, which I realize is not ideal. Ultimately, I do prefer to play with other people and try to be inclusive in my roleplay, but my opinion is that partying up and having a wide variety of contacts in the same level range as my character hasn't come as naturally as it used to.
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Re: Is Arelith still a "party" server?

Post by Rebel4ever » Sun May 13, 2018 12:22 am

A few issues I see with your proposal, Rebel4ever - first and foremost being that having DMs give out powerful items is a very good way to generate feelings of jealousy and DM favoritism. I have seen it happen elsewhere, and it has literally destroyed servers, which is why I'm so glad that Arelith DMs don't engage in giving out magic items at all.
It was hypothetical and personal preference. Every server of Neverwinter Nights ever had favoritism whether its meant or not.
Actually i would prefer if the strongest items were only given to people who stat,skill and play RP
Second, Arelith is so large a community that DMs cannot possibly pay enough attention to all the players to determine which ones meet your criteria.
Again it was my preference and more about dividing power from a dominant pvp built player and hard RP. I have absolutely no expectations this will happen in a million years and yes it would be difficult to implement.
And third, if someone has opted to create a mechanically weak build for the purposes of RP, then clearly mechanical strength is not their goal, so what is the point of giving them powerful items? If they wanted a powerful character, well, they could have made one. It just seems like rewarding a cat with broccoli, you know?
Again division of power so as one person doesn't become too strong. NO don't think the server will EVER do this.
Players who elect to RP their character's stats with extreme accuracy (and as has been shown in this thread, there are many ideas on how to RP a stat, so "accurate" RP of a stat or skill is pretty unquantifiable) are already potentially rewarded through RPR and, perhaps more importantly, through satisfaction with their own RP.
RPR is just as susceptible of player favortism as any other system in a more subtle manner. I suppose there would always be a grey area people would use so its likely not practical to mark everyone as one or the other so your probably right about that.

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Re: Is Arelith still a "party" server?

Post by Wytchee » Tue May 15, 2018 12:16 am

Sorry to veer off topic, here, but the argumentum ad dictionarium has always bugged the heck outta me.

Dictionaries don't give prescriptive meanings for words, because that is not how language works. Rather, dictionaries detail how words are most commonly used. For instance, if you look up the word "literally" in Merriam-Webster, the second definition is literally the opposite of what literally is supposed to mean, because the definition of literally has changed with use:
in effect, virtually
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Re: Is Arelith still a "party" server?

Post by MoreThanThree » Tue May 15, 2018 12:29 am

Rebel are you trying to imply that people with competent builds are bad roleplayers or are you just being ironic?
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Re: Is Arelith still a "party" server?

Post by Gnarh » Tue May 15, 2018 5:31 am

I have no idea how this has devolved into a RP verses Powerbuilding thread. Let's try to keep on topic ok?
Anomander wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:43 pm
Agreed.. this is less of a server design thing and more of a personal effort. If you want to find people to party with and go do stuff, it's really easy if you just put a tiny bit of effort into it.
I'm pretty certain that initially the server scaled PVE encounters to parties rather than soloing. (If any previous Dev's like Mith, Fireboar or Artos want to chime in, please feel free to do so!) Hence, soloing was difficult and dangerous - it isn't as much these days.

I feel from my original OP this was mostly a design question and discussion. One thing I enjoy about Arelith is that the world is very much non-linear. There are places in the server that even after 10 years of playing, my characters have never been there. There are still secrets to discover.

This contrasts somewhat to games like World of Warcraft - where areas are designed "for level" and inevitably through the progression of a single character a player will go to almost all of those places. The current writ system may be seen as a step towards this type of gaming environment - but is that a direction we as a player-base really want to be going?

There has been some discussion about the idea of "Nightmare Difficulty" Dungeons (yet another reference spawned by Blizzard). I'm not sure that is the way to go. I was thinking more of particular areas where the dungeon and puzzles are designed for 3 to 5 players as well as being level appropriate. Maybe it's set up that you can't even enter some of these areas without a party. Maybe some of these areas prevent you from having summons, or are anti magic areas so if a spellcaster wants to go there they need to find a party. There is a lot of ground for creativity in this area, and potentially something to get our devs thinking about "fun" things.

Thinking along those lines - maybe it's worthwhile having a henchman you can hire from any settlement who are basic rogues, who won't fight in combat, but will disable traps and pick locks. How effective they are depends on how much you pay/what level your character is/etc. They would have to be balanced so it's always better to find a PC rogue, but it also means that players should be able to get through level appropriate dungeons with a bit more difficulty - but still complete them. It also gives the Dev's more ability to play with locking doors, blocking paths, and random traps - all things that add to the uncertainty of your character "living" in a persistent world.

I can remember a recent thread about a player coming across a locked door in a dungeon in the skull crags. Some players would see that as an annoyance in their end goal of completing the dungeon. I see it as a plot point, something that would make my character think and ensure they prepared properly next time - although having an easier option to prepare rather than hunting down a PC rogue would make things a little easier.

Anyway, if we could get back on topic and discuss this on the basis of area/server design and player experience rather looking at it through the ever-so-persistent RP vs Build frame, it would be appreciated.

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Re: Is Arelith still a "party" server?

Post by Iceborn » Tue May 15, 2018 8:10 am

I'm going to ignore the many turds that were thrown around this thread to just bring out a thought that I had about this, here
-XXX- wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 6:19 am
One of the ways of how to assess the "quality" of RP is by the amount of players that get included in it.
Being inclusive is a great trait of good roleplay, but bringing in more people is not equal to being inclusive.
Bringing in more people is a matter of just gathering people that may be interested to do X thing. It is not hard and doesn't require much of an actual effort other than spreading the word.
Being inclusive means that you find everybody present to fill their own role in a way that is essential to what is happening, that everybody plays a part in a scene. THAT is hard, and something that I can only talk about in concept because I can barely play my own character, let alone orchestrate what other eight guys should be doing at the same time.

If you've ever been in an event when there was so much people that it was pure chaos, where your character didn't matter over the masses, that can leave a pretty sour feeling, specially with the many approaches to RP that we have in the community (everybody plays for their own reason). A 'large' event with the greatest numbers of people is not necessarily good; but one where everybody is essential and feels included in the narrative? That is the essence of good roleplay.
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