Maybe its time for an UD server again?

[Queen Titania]

I really dislike the idea of further segregating monster race players. If anything I think the factions (andunor and Cordor) should be more exclusive. Right now anyone from Cordor can walk into Andunor seemingly without punishment. If someone like a gnoll or kobold tries to walk into Cordor not only would the dms be upset (rightfully) they would be killed on sight. In fact I've seen drow outright protect surface humans from those of us who were not so welcoming as I understood the rp should be.

I think things like this are why the cities server is more popular than surface. More interaction with more differing people.

Maybe the solution would be the opposite of what I posted above. Maybe we could have a ceasefire or something where those of us who are known Underdarkers could enter the surface and interact with them without immediate threat of death.

A ceasefire environment will never happen.

A few issues:

When you play a monster race, you are playing a MONSTER. Imagine people in prisons, incarcerated for life for murder. Now imagine someone saying: "We should allow them to enter our home town, not keep them in cells."

Would anyone be comfortable with that?

A surfacer going into the underdark, a human to be precise, is taking a risk by being in a setting with more crime and less sympathy for those who are victims. Humans may be able to slip by with care, but a hin might be looked at as a resource, or commodity, and a surface elf might be grabbed down an alley to be sacrificed if they aren't cautious with hiding themselves.

In other words, there is a greater threat of death in going to Andunor. Sure, maybe not as much as the immediate threat of the surface, but that's because again, these are Monsters. A race where 99% are terrible murderers, and trusting one is akin on taking a gamble with your own life.

The places should be seen as different environments, rather than trying to equalize everything, we should see that because they are different they can cater to a variety of tastes.

It's too early to do a UD Server on its own, in regards to the OP. Maybe if numbers keep growing.

[Sab1]

I really dislike the idea of further segregating monster race players. If anything I think the factions (andunor and Cordor) should be more exclusive. Right now anyone from Cordor can walk into Andunor seemingly without punishment. If someone like a gnoll or kobold tries to walk into Cordor not only would the dms be upset (rightfully) they would be killed on sight. In fact I've seen drow outright protect surface humans from those of us who were not so welcoming as I understood the rp should be.

I think things like this are why the cities server is more popular than surface. More interaction with more differing people.

Maybe the solution would be the opposite of what I posted above. Maybe we could have a ceasefire or something where those of us who are known Underdarkers could enter the surface and interact with them without immediate threat of death.

I think it's also important to remember the view most common surface people have of the monster races. Murdering beasts that come out of nowhere to raid and pillage. Drow are the evil boogeymen hiding in the darkness waiting to strike. Goblins. orcs. gnolls, ogres etc all have that sinister reputation of killing, eating, or enslaving you. These aren't the type of things the average commoner wants to see in their city.

With the beings below, surfacers would be more tolerated, simply because many of those below have the how can this person benefit me reputation. Can they get me power, wealth, slaves, information etc. But I would expect after the UD sees them no longer of use, it might end badly for the surfacer. I always disagree with the surfacers coming down openly to have a look about and just chill.

[Leshpar]

I really dislike the idea of further segregating monster race players. If anything I think the factions (andunor and Cordor) should be more exclusive. Right now anyone from Cordor can walk into Andunor seemingly without punishment. If someone like a gnoll or kobold tries to walk into Cordor not only would the dms be upset (rightfully) they would be killed on sight. In fact I've seen drow outright protect surface humans from those of us who were not so welcoming as I understood the rp should be.

I think things like this are why the cities server is more popular than surface. More interaction with more differing people.

Maybe the solution would be the opposite of what I posted above. Maybe we could have a ceasefire or something where those of us who are known Underdarkers could enter the surface and interact with them without immediate threat of death.

I think it's also important to remember the view most common surface people have of the monster races. Murdering beasts that come out of nowhere to raid and pillage. Drow are the evil boogeymen hiding in the darkness waiting to strike. Goblins. orcs. gnolls, ogres etc all have that sinister reputation of killing, eating, or enslaving you. These aren't the type of things the average commoner wants to see in their city.

With the beings below, surfacers would be more tolerated, simply because many of those below have the how can this person benefit me reputation. Can they get me power, wealth, slaves, information etc. But I would expect after the UD sees them no longer of use, it might end badly for the surfacer. I always disagree with the surfacers coming down openly to have a look about and just chill.

As do I. In my rp I make that very clear and have scared quite a few. Its quite fun.

[Iceborn]

The Shadovar Enclave is a good ceasefire area, under threat of death/enslavement if there's aggression.
While it's super small, it's a good place to negotiate with potentially hostile parties - as in surfacer/underdarker relations.

[StandingOnTheShouldersOfGiants]

Instead of a new Underdark server we could just have a new server for all the Cyricists. That would clear up a ton of space in Andunor.

[Mithreas]

The Shadovar Enclave is a good ceasefire area, under threat of death/enslavement if there's aggression.
While it's super small, it's a good place to negotiate with potentially hostile parties - as in surfacer/underdarker relations.

On a very minor note... it's always great as a dev/designer when you see something work out exactly to plan (and stand the test of time). This was precisely the intent of this area, and it's great that it's seeing at least some use for that!

[Oh Jinkies, I Cant See Without My Glasses]

Here's an idea. We take all the halflings and gnomes, and make sausages out of them. Enough food to create peace above and below ground - and clear up space.
Then we add skeletons as a playable race instead of those two, because skeletons are approximately 43,893 times neater than either of those two races.

Debate me, I dare you. I'll emotionally break down and make you feel bad if you try.

[Irongron]

Having followed player numbers and character distribution across areas I can really see no other viable route than to separate Cordor and Underdark once again into different servers. It means we'll see low numbers when not on peak hours but as it stands now, a party of reasonable size will often find themselves unable to get into the Cities and Planes server.

Not sure when I'll be able to do this, and splitting servers is a really time-consuming and mind-numbing task.

On the plus side it does mean if Arelith keeps growing we might start seeing Andunor and Cordor with close to 100 characters on each!

[Grunf]

If it comes to such would be neat to keep in mind there is an area in UD and near Cordor that would be easier to reach in order we can scry between this two large powers as thats what i find very RP and plot rewarding for various stories players run.

We have something similar with surface server as by usage of slum Andunor area we can transfer easy to citadel and scry.

[ForgottenBhaal]

You could always put the Arcane tower, and Bendir areas in the Cordor server? Move some surface to Cordor, and the underdark and planes to their own thing?

[caldura firebourne]

If there's anything I can do to help, I'd be happy to put some time towards the server, i'm vaguely familliar with the toolset, and I enjoy mind numbing, time consuming tasks while listening to loud music, and long walks along the beaches that don't exist where I live.

[Rynn]

I would be wary of making any changes for the next month or two. Steam-NWNEE is still new and shiny, so there's a bit of a population boom that'll likely subside over the next few weeks.

[Durvayas]

Opportunity cost.

EE is new, yes, so there is a short term massive spike of new people. The longer the server is overpopulated, lagging, and people are unable to get in, the more likely a new player is to try a different server and settle there, rather than here.

While I expect EE's release will continue to bring in more people because of steam(assuming they start getting better reviews), the momentum that could have been gained from this spike will be lost eventually when new faces slow down to a steady stream, rather than the current flood.

The devs need to figure out if the opportunity cost of splitting the server, which will put them behind on fixing the plethora of issues EE has created with arelith's systems, is worth building the net to catch a bunch of new people before they head elsewhere.

[Marsi]

I would be wary of making any changes for the next month or two. Steam-NWNEE is still new and shiny, so there's a bit of a population boom that'll likely subside over the next few weeks.

Player retention is high -- the GOG sale a while back was enough to permanently double the population. I wouldn't be surprised if we continue to hover around 150-200 players for a long time to come.

Besides splitting the servers, there's going to be a serious need for more space. So many areas were consolidated over the years and now they're needed back (and then some)!

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Instead of a new Underdark server we could just have a new server for all the Cyricists. That would clear up a ton of space in Andunor.

[Red Ropes]

LOL

[Tourmaline]

Player retention is high -- the GOG sale a while back was enough to permanently double the population. I wouldn't be surprised if we continue to hover around 150-200 players for a long time to come.

Besides splitting the servers, there's going to be a serious need for more space. So many areas were consolidated over the years and now they're needed back (and then some)!

I'd add a few things.. One, the Baldur's Gate EEs are still selling quite well though years old, so I would expect NWN to be around a while and bring in a regular flow of players. That will probably slow down for months then increase when Steam has a sale then slow down again, but this could keep going for years.

Two.. Let's not forget NWN is also a single player game. A lot of people bought/will be buying it and play the regular campaign before attempting multiplayer. Or they may explore a bit but not commit right away. But people who are totally fresh to the game aren't all immediately going to join a PW and start RPing on day one. Some will, but many others may take a while if at all.

So I agree, we could be hovering at 200+ players at peak times for a long time to come or even slowly increase population.

[dominantdrowess]

I really dislike the idea of further segregating monster race players. If anything I think the factions (andunor and Cordor) should be more exclusive. Right now anyone from Cordor can walk into Andunor seemingly without punishment. If someone like a gnoll or kobold tries to walk into Cordor not only would the dms be upset (rightfully) they would be killed on sight. In fact I've seen drow outright protect surface humans from those of us who were not so welcoming as I understood the rp should be.

I think things like this are why the cities server is more popular than surface. More interaction with more differing people.

Maybe the solution would be the opposite of what I posted above. Maybe we could have a ceasefire or something where those of us who are known Underdarkers could enter the surface and interact with them without immediate threat of death.

I think it's also important to remember the view most common surface people have of the monster races. Murdering beasts that come out of nowhere to raid and pillage. Drow are the evil boogeymen hiding in the darkness waiting to strike. Goblins. orcs. gnolls, ogres etc all have that sinister reputation of killing, eating, or enslaving you. These aren't the type of things the average commoner wants to see in their city.

With the beings below, surfacers would be more tolerated, simply because many of those below have the how can this person benefit me reputation. Can they get me power, wealth, slaves, information etc. But I would expect after the UD sees them no longer of use, it might end badly for the surfacer. I always disagree with the surfacers coming down openly to have a look about and just chill.

As do I. In my rp I make that very clear and have scared quite a few. Its quite fun.

although I would love to see another area created in the UD thats totally drow in theme and all, the first thing that would pop up would be its another Udos, and thats not what the plan should be

I imagine something like a mad max version. Some intact buildings of a former drow city surrounded by ruins, caves, tents/huts...
Ruined drow city and tribal inhabited suburbs both with a own meeting hall... And so on.

Because there would also be Andunor all would have the choice where to live and rp.

What I like about the idea is what it would mean for Andunor. You could get rid of some problems that always forced to make compromices; e.g. attracting more outcasts or not (by a human NPC run slave guild, temple of Versharoon, giving Outcats an own district...) .

But as I said: that are just some quick thoughts...

yes but drow wouldnt let it stay ruined, they would rebuild it. actually what you described is the old Udos Pittown mix almost

The difference is purely the Drow's intentions and the definition of 'Surfacer'.

Outcasts are not surfacers -- although many players try to paint them as such for the purpose of the Udos Narrative.

My Drow "defends" these "surfacers" because these "surfacers (Outcasts who's rez-point is Andunor and who speak Undercommon)" are capable of providing her adamantium, where most of these drow players are level 2. And openly insult other players -- and then get killed by attacks of opportunity while casting invisibility to escape the consequences of the multiple IC warnings they received.

This is openly playing my character's alignment, with open and actual awareness of these evil character's intentions, evil alignment and willingness to battle the enemies of the city.

Many of the good characters want to defend a "cute" kobold on the surface without any purpose whatsoever, because he is not CURRENTLY hostile -- not because the kobold has done anything to prove he is furthering the objectives of the community as a whole -- which is against the rules -- whereas an evil human citizen of Andunor is not.

Udos, the Drow City was intentionally deleted, and this conglomerate of 'Andunor' was created intentionally. "Pure" drow with the absolute political power to enslave anyone who looks at them funny on their own turf simply are neither popular or interesting enough to warrant their own entire city.

There aren't enough high-level drow who stuck around to manage this... and when there are a lot of high level drow? They typically refuse to make the necessary connections and bribes to keep a racial conglomerate of Chaotic Evil, self-serving sociopaths working together. I personally? Would LOVE to have seen Udos. I personally? Would LOVE to have enough drow to roll around as an organized group capable of "mwahaha-ah-haha!" Drow maintaining long-term political power across multiple elections ... but let's face it:

Drow are stressful to play. Few people can do it full time, all the time... and even fewer are proven to be able to do it long-term. And most of those who can? Often go out of their way to have conflicting agendas with others who can rather than compromising -- because that's the nature of drow as the novella has taught us.

Nobody's got that kinda stamina, given how rapidly drow characters appear and disappear in Andunor, continuously leaving a power-vacuum that other non-drow characters naturally and regularly take the long-term effort to step-in and fill. When the current drow stick around for a few months? I'll be convinced.... but I've seen two 'First Houses' (Isn't Freth first house of The Devil's Table?) disappear in the incredibly short time I've actually been on the server (Two months) and the continued behavior of the existing Drow Houses trying to marginalize each other over each other's plans is both the appropriate canon behavior -- and the behavior that got them into this mess -- and I don't see that changing any time soon.

It's the low-level drow who can't fight a race-war ... who are always trying to force everyone else to fight a race-war that even the level 30's can't win. Then they roll at level 16 ... and make a noble on the surface.

"Why aren't you defending my level 2 character you've never met before, against this level 30 who has the power to take away your home and your personal shop if you anger him? I'm a drow! You should be loyal to me over a human and lose what remaining political power drow have in the name of 'loyalty' because we share the same chaotic evil god!"

[WinkinBlinkin]

Humans are mechanically superior to drow. Clerics suck compared to lots of other builds. People like to play kick Snuggybear builds. Kick Snuggybear builds... well they kick Snuggybear. This has an effect both on how many people want to play them, and the influence they can gain in game. Before you even get into the canonical nature of drow, Lolthites are at a disadvantage, and no, the infighting doesn't help them oppose humans either.

But all of that could be used as an arguement FOR giving them support. I've run into a couple of new players who are saying that they love playing drow, but are not certain if they can play it here, because they are looking for a more traditional drow society. And, yes, yada yada, lots of different types of drow cities, yada yada... but whilst a majority of the drow realm is not like Menzoberanzen, the VAST majority of literature written about drow cities IS.

I think lots of old time Arelith players are quite jaded about Lolthite drow. Been there, done that, got their socks on in Udos Dro'Xun. But a lot of the new incoming players are not, and Andunor is producing a WTF reaction in some of them that is putting them off.

Personally, I like the tension between traditionalism and racial libertarianism that Andunor generates. Whenever it leans too far in one direction, I tend to lean the opposite way. Currently, its leaning so far, that traditional Lolthite drow are actually an oppressed minority.

[Durvayas]

You've only been with us for a few months Dominantdrowess, so what seems normal to you, is actually not typically par for the course. Most first houses burn bright for an average of 6 months to a year, often slipping to 2nd if they get eclipsed, and then taking 1st again, or collapsing.

I'll point out that Barrith was around for a good 9 months and first house for a good 3 of those(you arrived the week we decided to shelve) , and Xar'zith's brief rule was unusually short, but the rule of 1st houses for non lolthites is almost always short, and anything considered controvertial to drow culture will also cause a shortened reign due to IC pushback...

Below is a rough chronology of the last three years(ish). Controversies regarding faith and other things highlighted in bold. With exception to house Xar'zith, all mentioned houses had existed for a period of 3-7 months before taking the 1st house title.

Xar'zith(1.7months as first) Aurilite DRUID matron w/ free religion house.
-preceded by Barrith(3 months as first, reign begun sooner than OOCly wanted/expected) La'laskran house
-preceded by Na'dar'zul(1-2 months as first, reign ended by untimely ban)
-Preceded by Saerenthal(1-2 months as first) Free elf male 'pet/retainer'
-Preceded by Zau'myr (1-2 months as first) Run by a feylock
-Preceded by Xal'rae (4ish months rule)
-Preceded by Xun'viir(about a full RL year in control) La'laskran house (long reign can be attributed to stellar leadership and La'laskra's popularity, along with a healthy dose of PvP prowess and general inclusivity)
-Preceded by Fumavhid(11 months control

[dominantdrowess]

You've only been with us for a few months Dominantdrowess, so what seems normal to you, is actually not typically par for the course. Most first houses burn bright for an average of 6 months to a year, often slipping to 2nd if they get eclipsed, and then taking 1st again, or collapsing.

I'll point out that Barrith was around for a good 9 months and first house for a good 3 of those(you arrived the week we decided to shelve) , and Xar'zith's brief rule was unusually short, but the rule of 1st houses for non lolthites is almost always short, and anything considered controvertial to drow culture will also cause a shortened reign due to IC pushback...

Below is a rough chronology of the last three years(ish). Controversies regarding faith and other things highlighted in bold. With exception to house Xar'zith, all mentioned houses had existed for a period of 3-7 months before taking the 1st house title.

Xar'zith(1.7months as first) Aurilite matron w/ free religion house.
-preceded by Barrith(3 months as first, reign begun sooner than OOCly wanted/expected) La'laskran house
-preceded by Na'dar'zul(1-2 months as first, reign ended by untimely ban)
-Preceded by Saerenthal(1-2 months as first) Free elf male 'pet/retainer'
-Preceded by Zau'myr (1-2 months as first) Run by a feylock
-Preceded by Xal'rae (4ish months rule)
-Preceded by Xun'viir(about a full RL year in control) La'laskran house (long reign can be attributed to stellar leadership and La'laskra's popularity, along with a healthy dose of PvP prowess and general inclusivity)
-Preceded by Fumavhid(11 months control

Well written. Thank-you~

Having read over this though-- it seems the last five houses have had this issue -- and it seems like it's /become/ the norm, even months before I arrived.

[Durvayas]

Humans are mechanically superior to drow. Clerics suck compared to lots of other builds. People like to play kick Snuggybear builds. Kick Snuggybear builds... well they kick Snuggybear. This has an effect both on how many people want to play them, and the influence they can gain in game. Before you even get into the canonical nature of drow, Lolthites are at a disadvantage, and no, the infighting doesn't help them oppose humans either.

But all of that could be used as an arguement FOR giving them support. I've run into a couple of new players who are saying that they love playing drow, but are not certain if they can play it here, because they are looking for a more traditional drow society. And, yes, yada yada, lots of different types of drow cities, yada yada... but whilst a majority of the drow realm is not like Menzoberanzen, the VAST majority of literature written about drow cities IS.

I think lots of old time Arelith players are quite jaded about Lolthite drow. Been there, done that, got their socks on in Udos Dro'Xun. But a lot of the new incoming players are not, and Andunor is producing a WTF reaction in some of them that is putting them off.

Personally, I like the tension between traditionalism and racial libertarianism that Andunor generates. Whenever it leans too far in one direction, I tend to lean the opposite way. Currently, its leaning so far, that traditional Lolthite drow are actually an oppressed minority.

I'm in agreement with everything said here. The power dynamic is not helped that humans now have a nearly(if not already passed) 1:1 population ratio with drow in Andunor(but lack the racial/religious tendency to backstab eachother, so their numbers are actually more potent on top of their superior mechanical power).

I've also been talking with players, particularly new ones, and what I'm hearing mirrors Winkin. You can see this happening on the discord as well. We have a lot of new people who want to play traditional drow as they've read in the books, but the arelith setting is so far off from what they've read, that they don't know what to do.

Couple the IC culture with Andunor's only partly functional Sorcere(you can't rank up in the sorcere without mithril dust, which can cost 200-400k due to rarity), and complete lack of mechanical support for a melee magthere(there is nowhere on the module that fosters magthere RP like their used to be in Udos), and it is hard for new people to figure out where their new drow fits in.

It may not be a terrible idea for a drow settlement to be built somewhere to give them somewhere to completely immerse themselves in drow culture as it is typically portrayed, and in truth, it may even be healthier for the UD to have a second settlement that competes with Andunor as it opens up a great deal of conflict RP.

The traditional drow(Lolthites, Kiarans, and post-reformation la'laskrans) would flock to this new settlement, while the drow that typically do not fit in well in the UD without constant PvP(Vhaerunites, Sharrans, Ghaunadaurites, Eilistreans, and Zinzerinaan) would be able to build themselves a niche in Andunor with the monsters and the outcasts, along with the less conservative lolthite drow taking advantage of it being a trade city.

Avenues of conflict opened:
-Territorial disputes
-Religious skirmishing
-Hegemonic dominion(Reminiscent of the Grond-Udos wars, but in this case the monster city actually stands a good chance)
-Factions Exiled from either settlement have somewhere they can go rather than mass rolling/deleting/hiding in the port away from all the RP.

The UD has been booming with numbers. I'm very confident that the server has the players, and will sustain the numbers, to be able to have both a Menzo-lite drow city, and skullport.

AND, relevent to the topic at hand, The drow-centric city could be located on the surface server, which would take some of the strain of the C&P server.

[PresidentCthulhu]

I’m well aware the last few posts doesn’t have much to do with the player count indicating the potential necessity of a separate server, but the topic that we derailed into is interesting enough so allow me to derail it further.

Player run factions in its core depend on the players running them. Most of the factions are formed around a single person (or if they are lucky multiple people with the same idea but it is very rare and usually involves Out of the game connections/meta).

So in short if someone works to make a faction they need a cool idea and then essentially put excessive amount of time and care into it. As long as they can do it it remains stable, but then either a new concept takes its place or simply they fall out of interest/go stale.

Conflict itself is the main drive of the story so this constant change is needed. I think it is absolutely playable as a drow you just need to adapt to the circumstances. It’s a close to the surface open city where drow learned how to interact with other races to further their goals. Those who cannot adapt die, it is rather ruthless. I would argue it’s even more interesting with the constant struggle of tradition and more liberal approach.

With all that I mean if the players who wish to have a traditional approach actually work to make one there will be one. There is just not enough dedicated player for that (so far).

[dominantdrowess]

I’m well aware the last few posts doesn’t have much to do with the player count indicating the potential necessity of a separate server, but the topic that we derailed into is interesting enough so allow me to derail it further.

Player run factions in its core depend on the players running them. Most of the factions are formed around a single person (or if they are lucky multiple people with the same idea but it is very rare and usually involves Out of the game connections/meta).

So in short if someone works to make a faction they need a cool idea and then essentially put excessive amount of time and care into it. As long as they can do it it remains stable, but then either a new concept takes its place or simply they fall out of interest/go stale.

Conflict itself is the main drive of the story so this constant change is needed. I think it is absolutely playable as a drow you just need to adapt to the circumstances. It’s a close to the surface open city where drow learned how to interact with other races to further their goals. Those who cannot adapt die, it is rather ruthless. I would argue it’s even more interesting with the constant struggle of tradition and more liberal approach.

With all that I mean if the players who wish to have a traditional approach actually work to make one there will be one. There is just not enough dedicated player for that (so far).

See, I'm in full agreeance with this. Those who don't adapt, die off -- and I feel like it's been the case for the last few houses. I totally love the narrative as it is.

Honestly, as things go... I think given the number of players on the good guy side, and the number of mechanical toys that evil has (two districts, the assassin system, palemasters, necromancy, and so-on) ... I think the resources are better spent on the surface. I think the UD should probably be split from Cordor-- but.. not as it's own server... but it's more because:

Cordor (and the other popular cities) needs more space to grow.

Mechanically, between it's quest system and trade-hub... Andunor is one of the best designed cities: I've heard it said many times ... but it's population (size) doesn't really demand an additional 'drow city' or anything else added to the Underdark at the moment.

Even has a portal right in the middle of it.

[afreshstart]

Surface server is much much developed compared to the Underdark. Two districts doesn't even compare settlements avaible in the surface, where they can actually manage to have proper wars. The good side has their own toys, harpers, radiant heart and so on...

Anduor/UD is in dire need of expansion imho, there is definitely a need for more quarters and shops.

Personnaly I'd love a wizards tower themed guid house near the city... Maybe something with similar theme to mingon factory ETC. Could be a nice place for deep gnomes and what not to hang out instead of Anduor