Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

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flower
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Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by flower » Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:45 pm

Sockss wrote:Banning skill hoarding won't have the effect you think it will.

It'll just take a bit more effort to map out your skill dump. Maybe cost you a tiny amount of base saves or a couple of cl at most. My caster will still have max discipline :)

The divide between optimal building and casual / rp building will just get larger.
It would cost you much more CL than you think making you vulnerable to the Disjunction scrolls.

And yes sad thing is wizards would screw others over it, because they could put 11 skill points per level into a skill, where meeler would put only like 3-5 per level. Thus yes on wizard you would need 3 classes only but all others who are not INT based, like sorcerer (anyone plays it even?) who would have 4 skill points per level would need many levels to get TUMBLE, UMD, and others. And if you were picking up numerous skills from the multiclass, you could never handle that.

If a fighter build (WM, or anything else) is getting like 4 points per level then he needs many class levels to increase tumble, umd, not speaking of any other skills. I find it hilarious like casters always cry over this. If all people were getting same number of skill points, i will not mind removing skill dumps. But in situation where are classes like wizard getting 10+ skill points it is just a spit into face of those play classes heavily disfavored by NWN default in skill terms.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:05 pm

If you can't float skill points how will you get max disc
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flower
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Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by flower » Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:12 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:If you can't float skill points how will you get max disc

Wizard easily by taking bard on level 27+, getting base +10 skillpoints (int mod) + base class sklil points.

While most meleers would never achieve 30 tumble and had hard time to even get 15 UMd with their usually +2/3 INT mod.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:25 pm

sorry i was replying to this
Sockss wrote:Banning skill hoarding won't have the effect you think it will.

It'll just take a bit more effort to map out your skill dump. Maybe cost you a tiny amount of base saves or a couple of cl at most. My caster will still have max discipline :)

The divide between optimal building and casual / rp building will just get larger.
how do you max disc and only lose "a tiny amount of base saves or a couple of cl at most" w/o skill floating
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Undulat
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Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by Undulat » Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:47 pm

I'd much rather see more new items and new areas than more new classes/paths.

And with haks; new heads (especially human male) and new clothing options.

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Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by Ebonstar » Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:04 pm

Sockss wrote:Banning skill hoarding won't have the effect you think it will.

It'll just take a bit more effort to map out your skill dump. Maybe cost you a tiny amount of base saves or a couple of cl at most. My caster will still have max discipline :)

The divide between optimal building and casual / rp building will just get larger.
fixing the skill hoarding will do exactly what was said, and not allowing the 3 lvl dip that do not make sense rp wise will have casters back in their own skill set, rogues in theirs etc.

you wont have wm with umd or tumbling in plate issues because they wont have the cross class dip to do such in the upper epics

the biggest issue I see to all balance and class issues is that alot of people dont play characters with skills that make sense anymore.

the biggest error is always shown with druid monk mixes, yes possible but they are extreme opposites

clerics would not stoop to having rogue levels unless they were maskaran

again i point above, to when would a character whose entire life is to honing his skills with one weapon to be part of the weapon in combat, suddenly go wait i can use this scroll or wand that took that mage his entire life to use properly.

rp making sense provides more balance than mechanically cause we can
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Ork
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Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by Ork » Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:53 pm

Wizard 29, 1 bard. 16 disc cross class, 1 bard level with 16 int modifier gets 20 or 21 skillpoints. BOOM max disc.

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Scurvy Cur
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Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by Scurvy Cur » Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:59 pm

Restricting skill point saving would neither make rogues viable nor reduce the power gap between good builds and bad builds. At most, it would change which builds are good, and push the suboptimal builds further into the dumpster.

Believing anything else is an exercise in purest self-delusion.


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Manabi
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Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by Manabi » Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:11 pm

Scurvy Cur wrote:Restricting skill point saving would neither make rogues viable nor reduce the power gap between good builds and bad builds. At most, it would change which builds are good, and push the suboptimal builds further into the dumpster.

Believing anything else is an exercise in purest self-delusion.
I second this. The only thing it would really do is shrink the lineup of viable builds. It would take maybe a week at most and you would see the same three or four cookie-cutter classes grinding to epics and it would be the most boring thing possible. It would be a horrid mistake and would do absolutely jack for balance. As Scurvy said, if you want to see even less variety on Arelith, this is a fine way to do it.

Also, there seems to be a misconception that people who "power build" are only doing it for PVP reasons and "grinding for 5%" Some people GENUINELY love adventuring, both in and out of groups. There's a lot to explore and find out there, and it's awesome. If it were possible to do that on a barbarian/wizard/cleric with any level of efficiency whatsoever, I would be the first on board with the idea. The problem is that this is certainly not pen and paper. We can't make things like rage mages, fate spinners or effigy masters. and if we did, it would take years of tweaking to get such classes right. I really don't want to go there right now, though.

Also, PVP isn't bad. PVP is the result of conflict RP which almost every faction will gravitate towards because it makes genuinely interesting stories. I mean, I'd be happy to log in to some goof character and talk about how to skin rats and how my mother used to make me eat raw fish when I used curse words. If that's your thing? Very awesome. You're doing something that makes you happy and that means you're most likely playing this game correctly. Have fun, RP with one another, and that's really it. And you know what? That's what is great about Arelith.


You like being a bar keep? THERE IS A PLACE FOR YOU HERE
You like being a socialite and building relationships? THERE IS A PLACE FOR YOU HERE
You like being involved in conflict between drow houses, surface scandles, and Good VS Evil? THERE IS A PLACE FOR YOU HERE
You like running around with your familiar and forming a bond with it? THERE IS A PLACE FOR YOU HERE

It's very awesome that all of these things can fit on the server. And really, imagine how long this list can get, and think about it for a second - how much can 'power builds' really affect that? Even if you get your teeth kicked in by a 23/4/3, there is ALWAYS someone else who hates that same guy who is also a 23/4/3 (or something similar) that you can buddy up with and invite to your faction and you can get even. And that's how stories are made!

Playing such builds isn't fun for some people because they are less flexible on the RP end, but for others, being a walking scimitar who can also use scrolls is the meat and potatoes of this game.

I guess the TL;DR

I read a bunch of things by different people and I just wanted to state that

Powerbuilding does not equal bad
PVP does not equal bad

RP builds and mechanical builds can C O E X I S T :mrgreen:
Owlbears are the only thing keeping Arelith from the D&D experience.

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Sockss
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Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by Sockss » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:20 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:sorry i was replying to this
Sockss wrote:Banning skill hoarding won't have the effect you think it will.

It'll just take a bit more effort to map out your skill dump. Maybe cost you a tiny amount of base saves or a couple of cl at most. My caster will still have max discipline :)

The divide between optimal building and casual / rp building will just get larger.
how do you max disc and only lose "a tiny amount of base saves or a couple of cl at most" w/o skill floating
(33 - CC skills before dip [If any]) / SP Gain = Number of class levels that you'd have to take of corresponding class with skill.

Assuming non-wizard, who it'll be easy for.

Generally caster builds are a variation on 26/4.
Assuming reasonable int of 14 and lowest class skill prog (2) and optimal human, you're looking at 5 SP's a level.
Assuming you take conc and SC, you have 3 SP's / level free. (1SP because you're CC'ing disc.)
You grab 14 disc @ 26 through CC'ing, then next 4 MC levels you can dump 19 points into disc.

Note that, this isn't the optimum way to do it, but it's the simplest explanation.
You'll end up a little lower on saves by virtue of not doing 17/3 pre epic.
With increase bard SP's you'll be able to pick up conc and sc.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.

Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.

Sab1
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Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by Sab1 » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:41 pm

Many would like Kensai in some form.
Last edited by Sab1 on Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Nekonecro
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Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by Nekonecro » Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:24 am

Personally I want a Brawler path, fist fighters that aren't monks are fun to me.

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flower
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Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by flower » Sat Mar 17, 2018 1:56 pm


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Thanatosis
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Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by Thanatosis » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:40 pm

Sab1 wrote:We want Kensai.
I don't want kensai. I'm glad they're gone. Who's we?
BegoneThoth wrote:Hardcore player here

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Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by Sab1 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:54 pm

Thanatosis wrote:
Sab1 wrote:We want Kensai.
I don't want kensai. I'm glad they're gone. Who's we?
I was trying to get it back on topic. I edited the post to make it more accurate.

Nitro
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Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by Nitro » Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:01 pm

I don't want kensai either.

Black Wendigo
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Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by Black Wendigo » Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:08 pm

Nor I. Even if it were to be brought back, I'll never trust that class again.

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Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by Sab1 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:37 pm

Ok I edited the edit.

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Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by rat0a » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:01 pm

I do like the first one bring them back

You don't like them? Freedom of choice "Do not play them"


Off topic: People like to talk about this build this and that build do that like PvP occurs every day when you log on your PC Unless you look for it really. really, really bad "most players" will never PvP 99% of their character life.
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Kyra Fryar Tempurian Kensai WM 2012 Retired
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BegoneThoth
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Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:59 pm

There are fights about every day in the hub I see bashed corpses there all the time.
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Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by Ebonstar » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:04 pm

im one who would play them if brought back in the permahasted FoM 10 dis no magic form

some may ask why, I enjoyed the speed was there in combat where I may have been with a group that may be underpowered and the speed and better chances of survival in a pack of monsters made it possible I could kill a bunch and help the rest before they got badly hurt.

i loved not having to buff up every encounter or area if there was danger. I could just react with a click and could keep the enemies focused on me while the rest of the group had time to use their magic.

the changes that allowed non melee classes to use the kensai pathis what i didnt like.

kensai = no potions wands or scrolls save raise dead. mundane salves and kits to heal, or a healer casting upon you.
that is what i loved about kensai. I know alot of people other than me did too because I have run into enough players who had the similar playstyle as I do.

funny thing is my last one before all the changes he was only in pvp when in the arena training.
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Ebonstar
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Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by Ebonstar » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:05 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:There are fights about every day in the hub I see bashed corpses there all the time.

the UD is a dangerous place to live.
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flower
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Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by flower » Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:44 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:There are fights about every day in the hub I see bashed corpses there all the time.

Got into two pvps and died twice in two months...

Each time by my own choice.

So.

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Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by Invader_Nym » Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:03 pm

Underdark has gotten out of hand imo. One of those situations where it might be IC, but it sure isn't fun. People walking around with their finger on the trigger, looking for excuses to kill eachother. A bit silly imo.

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Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by Invader_Nym » Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:06 pm

I actually don't think it's IC, to be honest. People just walking up to strangers and fellow citizens of Andunor in the hub and saying 'submit or die' doesn't seem very IC to me.

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