Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

[BegoneThoth]

like what

most pvp builds focus on max apr, max ab, and max ac.

what part of having those things fails in pve or is 'inefficient' in pve

IDK, "optimally built WMs" are usually the ones who cost me the most rezz scrolls during PvE ventures (anecdotal evidence, I know), since the entire toolkit of those builds mostly boils down to "leeroying".

And YES, any possible new melee class variation would just end up becoming another venue to boringly max apr,/ab/ac the way you describe, making it virtually indistinguishable from what we already have. Plz don't

Optimally built doesn't imply optimally played or geared. I'm surprised one of the most durable and proven builds on the server is dying so frequently in front of you.

Played properly the 20/7/3 owns, solid AC, plenty of avenues to get tons of saves, evasion, high con being a 1 stat class, and an HP >400. There's no reason it should be dying at all, build is amazing in PvE.

[TimeAdept]

maybe we should make another infinite caster instead, then we can balance around legacy infinite casting instead of legacy infinite melee.

oh wait.

[Nitro]

For example in the case of those 70+ AB monsters things like CC spells can be invaluable. CC spells that, for example, the barbarian class has been tweaked to utterly disregard making the CC spell user better at such PvE encounters while suffering during PvP encounters.
I'd greatly appreciate if the "my ab/ac/apr is better than yours, ergo I'm correct" mentality would be applied less in threads like these in the future, thx. Following such line of reasoning would suggest that wizards are bad, which I'm sure many would agree that is a rather ridiculous claim.

Wait, so you were never comparing these 'pvp builds' with other melee builds, but with caster builds? Does that mean you consider all melee builds bad in PvE or that you think only palemaster tanks and dedicated BG summoners are the viable melee classes?

Because when talking about melee, the line of higher AB/AC/APR is absolutely the golden rule.

[-XXX-]

When talking about "melee classes" I'm mostly referring to barbarians and WMs, but essentially yes, I do consider the PvE performance of these melee classes inferior to caster builds as their obsessive singular focus on AB/AC/APR makes them somewhat binary when it comes to PvE - in other words, their AB/AC/APR is either good enough, or they're respawning/fleeing for their lives and never coming back to certain dungeons. As a symptom of that i'd mention circlegrinding of some arguably less challenging dungeons like Blackfin or Auril.


And yes, I do consider BG summoners and PM tanks (i'd probably go as far as to throw in Pallies and even battleclerics in here as well) to be more viable for PvE as they are not solely reliant on AB/AC/APR, but do possess a slightly more complex toolbox to handle various situations. At the same time I'd also argue that their "PvP houndiness" is considerably decreased in comparison to barbs and WMs as a result, because they often need to buff before they can "reck face", signalling their intent in the process (a fleeting but considerable tempo difference that their opponents can use to escape and/or apply countermeasures).

[Sab1]

To say PVP and PVE are bascily the same is not necessarily true. I travel with a Barb who was hit by the Barb Nerf. The Bard is great in PVP or Arena as it's usually 1 v 1, but let three monsters come at her in pve and she is quickly being battered. So PVP an PVE use different strategies.

Kensai should of kept 10 listen and spot as it wasn't an earth shattering bonus. IMO not nearly as powerful as 10 Dis was.
No powerful ability like freedom, perm haste, 6 saves.
Keep 2 AC since it's so easy for many builds to get high ac anyway, it's not like 2 AC is suddenly going to make Kensai unhittable supermen. So it's a nice little perk that to me doesn't seem game breaking.
If they keep 1 free attack reduce mundane items.
Block any class that can cast from it. if your class gets spells, no kensai. Spells not special abilities.

It became the class boost because it was always getting a powerful feature and was open for too many classes. Kensai should be a I hate or fear magic path.

[Dr. B]

Bring back Kensai? Haven't you all forgotten that necromancy is an inherently evil act? If anything, the devs should delete any and all records of the code that made the path possible.

[Oshido]

Back on topic a bit. I really would like to see more specific warrior class paths. I think Shadows of Amn did this well. Swashbuckler, inquisitors, berzerker. Good perks at high level to make the same old dip combos less attractive. After over a decade playing and obsessing over power builds I have really started to have significantly more fun getting away from all that, embracing a classes weakness and strengths. I think warrior paths could really work on that.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Instead of Kensai, I just think there should be a motto that every class has minimum 2 paths to choose from. what those are, I don't know. but seeing inherent flexibility in all your choices would be great.

Current paths available:

Barbarian: 2 (core and tribal)
Bard: 2 (core and warlock)
Cleric: 2 (core and healer)
Druid: 2 (core and totem)
Fighter: none
Monk: none
Paladin: none
Ranger: 3 (Archer, sniper, and core)
Rogue: none
Sorcerer: 2 (core and shadow mage)
Wizard: 4 (core, shadow mage, spellsword, and wild mage)

I don't feel like we need to suggest what paths could look like because there is a plethora of material out there in Pathfinder, 3.5e, 5e, and otherwise.

But I feel like if we focused on going after those "no path" available classes we would immediately see more diversity and probably stuff that looks a lot like Kensai.

Also, I think pure classing paths can be great but too many of them eliminate multiclassing capabilities.

I also think the entire "half caster" archetype is destroyed on Arelith because of Breach wands and Dispel DCs. It's probably the most unfortunate consequence in recent times.

[BegoneThoth]

I agree with you. More paths.

[Cortex]

paths are a can of worms, most paths right now are busted in some way while a few need a full overhaul

[Sab1]

Paths are a worry everytime a change is made. Something like +2 save vs enchantment seems simple until a change is made to the enchantment class, now it needs to be looked at to see if that +2 makes things out of whack. Paths should be simple you get something, you lose something. While avoiding major things like spell saves, perm haste. freedom etc. I like paths because it gives you options, If memory serves me right Ranger archer I think does it right, you get some feats, you lose some feats. Simple. I think kensai is doable, with the understanding it's not for everyone and everyone won't be happy with it.

[BegoneThoth]

I would rather see new paths as opposed to fixing kensai.

Example being a path for fighters giving them a bonus for using either a finesse weapon or a standard one hand or a two hand would be slick.

That's what I would rather see as opposed to the blanket melee endeavor that kensai was.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

paths are a can of worms, most paths right now are busted in some way while a few need a full overhaul

Yeah I can see that. Since everything can be so inter-related and the ripple effect of mechanics is strong.

Ideally we just wait for haks and then convert paths to actual classes so we don't have to worry about tinkering with base classes and paths simultaneously.

Or add more prestige classes (which I think would be easier than new classes and is more of the 3.5e approach than Pathfinder and 5e).

[BegoneThoth]

Pathfinder does "paths" but calls them archetypes, its easily the greatest part of the system.

You don't need a full class for a "dagger Rogue" that gets d8 dagger damage and other small tweaks.

[Invader_Nym]

I don't like 3rd edition's tendancy towards 30 core classes and 200 prestige classes. I think that all these options are ultimately bad for the game, because people just end up trying to engineer the ultimate character by balancing a thousand variables instead of trying to define themselves through their character.

I'm glad Kensai is off the table. If I were calling the shots I'd axe every prestige class, and I'd probably get rid of Barbarian and monk too. I think we've reached and passed the point of diminishing returns when it comes to class combinations.

[Dr. B]

If I were calling the shots I'd axe every prestige class, and I'd probably get rid of Barbarian and monk too.

I definitely think that would make the game much more fun and interesting.

[-XXX-]

Th WM PRC should be scimitared instead of axed

[Ebonstar]

Th WM PRC should be scimitared instead of axed

just love your puns dont you.

unlike above, my first say hundred characters were ranger over wizard, just because i hated the ideas of being like Presto from the cartoon.

I would love to see kensai redone in another form, and even though it was said twice, the permahaste and 10 dis bonus and FoM was a very fair trade. However it was only a fair trade when it was locked to base melee classes. Fighter Barbarian Monk period. no 20/7/3 dips or anything similar. It let those true core melee chars exist with just enough to natural buffs to hold their own on the line.

The trouble was when it somehow in an update got available to almost any class since it was creation only, save ranger, paladin, or another spell class. Now you will ask how did that happen.

Answer is simple your 3 dump epic skill point hoarder. Get rid of saving more than 1 skill point per level is the first fix for class and char balance.

answer two is you enforce characters to make sense rp wise as well as mechanically able.
why did joe smith the weapon master who never used wands or big scrolls or any items that needed special skills for use all the sudden when he turned lvl 30 become an expert. it makes no sense unless we are all playing the first one to win the game game.
Last I checked we are still a rp is priority server. If not then why do assassins need to rp with a mark.

of late everything is mechanics this and mechanics that and optimal this and that and oh lets speed to be able to roll a 5%

I understand its a game and everyone loves to have fun. However the game is in a sandbox that still has rules that the rp must justify the action, or did I miss the memo that rp means nothing anymore.

enforce characters that make sense over mechanics, and our devs will have so much less work balancing that can be put into creating.

Kensai when tied only to the core melee did work, and it added flavor, and not to mention my last kensai before all the nerfing from permahaste being gone, he had met up with other kensai characters who had been around and it was like an instant little faction, because the past created the present.

[Dr_Hazard89]

Th WM PRC should be scimitared instead of axed

Answer is simple your 3 dump epic skill point hoarder. Get rid of saving more than 1 skill point per level is the first fix for class and char balance.

answer two is you enforce characters to make sense rp wise as well as mechanically able.
why did joe smith the weapon master who never used wands or big scrolls or any items that needed special skills for use all the sudden when he turned lvl 30 become an expert. it makes no sense unless we are all playing the first one to win the game game.
Last I checked we are still a rp is priority server. If not then why do assassins need to rp with a mark.

of late everything is mechanics this and mechanics that and optimal this and that and oh lets speed to be able to roll a 5%

I understand its a game and everyone loves to have fun. However the game is in a sandbox that still has rules that the rp must justify the action, or did I miss the memo that rp means nothing anymore.

enforce characters that make sense over mechanics, and our devs will have so much less work balancing that can be put into creating.

I think that RP is still very much a priority and means something, but I agree that it has slowly been pushed to the side in favor of powerbuilds, grinding and pre-made (OOCly formed) factions, for the sake of "the first one to win the game game". This is still an amazing RP server and I love to play here, but I have to admit to myself the atmosphere feels as if it has changed slightly over the years.

I like the suggestion of not allowing skill hoarding. I don't know why NWN decided to allow it, because it is against the rules last I checked, and leads to gamey options that admittedly, I feel compelled to take to stay viable and not just have my RP brushed aside/ignored by more powerful characters. Changing that would be a huge thing, because it's become the norm and I don't know if that's something Arelith wants to do. If they do, I'd be happy to try it out, if they don't .. It's not something I would personally argue for at this point (just because of what a hassle it would be), but I do support your idea!

As for Kensai, I think the rulebooks show off a very interesting character concept that's never really quite made it to Arelith. I've only played the original kensai so I can only speak for that path. I found it challenging but overall I enjoyed the playstyle. I'm not the kind of player who is comfortable spamming potions/wands/scrolls anyway, so it suited me. I had a lot of fun being a high disc, unbuffed, pure-melee, zipping about.

[Invader_Nym]

I like the suggestion of not allowing skill hoarding. I don't know why NWN decided to allow it, because it is against the rules last I checked, and leads to gamey options that admittedly,

Many of the weird eccentricities of NWN make perfect sense if you consider the game from a single-player PVM perspective, but make absolutely no sense if you consider the game from a persistent world perspective.

Lots of concerns about balance between classes become less relevant or disappear completely when it's just a single player, able to save and restore infinitely, vs the default campaigns.

[DishServedHot2]

I played what I thought was the original Kensai back when it was perma haste, but no magic at all, and I thought it was good for what it did. Against a prepped build it got crushed, but it had the advantage of low/no prep time which was great in some pvp.

As far as changing up and adding new options for melee classes, maybe taking some inspiration from pathfinder would be good?

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/altern ... s/samurai/

Their samurai is probably my favorite samurai class I've seen, and has a nice mixture of survivability and damage. Basically give them a limited number of times per rest (or cooldown) smite anything, and the resolve ability could probably be done through -commands or I don't know, recoded spells or something, letting them reroll fort and will saves x/day, or activate it to wake up from dying and keep fighting.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid- ... shbuckler/

And then with swashbuckler, give them the ability to do class level to damage (or some fraction thereof) when only using a single one handed weapon (or throwing weapon) that counts as precision damage so it doesn't work on things immune to crits.

Give them weapon finesse as a bonus feat at level one, and then most of the deeds could either be done as alterations to the parry skill, or various -command abilities.

[Kuma]

FENCER PATH NOW

[Manabi]

FENCER PATH NOW

NO, KUMA, NO. Let me save you some time.

Kuma makes a Fencer
Two weeks later, the class gets a nerf but its still playable.
Two weeks later, another nerf comes, its not really viable anymore, but it's worth logging on at least.
Two weeks later, they give it a buff to undo the nerf and give it some buffs because of complaints
A month later, the class either doesn't exist at all or is entirely unrecognizable from its original concept because some guy killed a bunch of people for lulz and the complaints are just unbearable to read.

[flower]

I would laugh so hard if hoarding sklil points was removed, as everyone keeps pointing at WM. And suddenly their ALL casters loose that discipline keeping them from being always KD, or tumble allowing them to hit that high AC. And the tens of skillpoints on wizards being left over because cannot dump.

I really do not understand where your issue with sklil dump is. I see as bigger issue that casters namely wizards get so many skillpoints only because their main atrribute for casting is INT.

When i started on server, casters dominated heavily. Who wanted to do pvp in Ud, made wizard or sorcerer. Houses, who were on top, were only those who brought more epic casters to the table, more EDK and hellballs/ruins. All meleers were only rp addition and if other side had 3-4 wizards it never mattered how many WMs you got. I love playing a meleer, and i have no desire to return to these times. When meleer is just an irrelevant idiot put in front in a dungeon.

[Sockss]

Banning skill hoarding won't have the effect you think it will.

It'll just take a bit more effort to map out your skill dump. Maybe cost you a tiny amount of base saves or a couple of cl at most. My caster will still have max discipline

The divide between optimal building and casual / rp building will just get larger.