Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

OOC General Discussion

Moderators: Forum Moderators, Active DMs

User avatar
Tathkar Eisgrim
Posts: 601
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:17 pm

Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by Tathkar Eisgrim » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:22 pm

I am currently playing a now legacy Kensai character. I made the decision to do so with my eyes wide open, because I had a 'strong personal vision' of what the character was and would be, regardless of gameplay mechanics. I am sure other players may have had similar strong visions into the roleplay angle to their characters, yet it has been remarked that 'sight was lost' of what a Kensai is, and should be, at its core - hence their removal.

Given that their is a serious dearth of Arelith additions (cool-stuff) for warriors, it would be great if Kensai could be revisited at some future time, so other warrior-inclined players might enjoy and benefit.

With that in mind, with reference to source materials, character concepts, etc. I ask the questions:

At its core, what is a Kensai warrior?
In the broadest sense, what does a Kensai gain for their dedication to the path?
In the broadest sense, what does a Kensai lose for their dedication to the path?

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3553
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by Cortex » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:25 pm

I think it'd be best to rework the vision, perhaps not even kensai but something new that works similarly without nearly as big as an impact on builds.
:)

User avatar
flower
Posts: 1287
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:16 am

Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by flower » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:28 pm

We need more features for meleers. Server is so far magic oriented. New epic spells, re worked spells, adjustments to the spelllike abilities using classes (BG, paladin, warlock), new spellsword, basically wizard who enjoys all benefits melee classes must také feats for.

User avatar
If Valor Were Inches
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Arelith Platinum Supporter
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:57 am

Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by If Valor Were Inches » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:29 pm

Honestly the closest representation to Kensai is Weaponmaster in my opinion.

I would actually not want to revisit Kensai. Something brand new.

For example, something like a Swashbuckler that blended fighter and rogue together. Or something else.

TimeAdept
Posts: 1336
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:02 am

Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:32 pm

The idea of an anti-magic martial character is a pretty core DnD concept that goes back to 2e, even... but then, even DnD's vision of the magic eschewing character has varied widely over the years, and become less and less of a thing, especially after 3.5.

Kensai and Arelith's fighters reminded me most of the Forsaker prestige class from 3.5, which received various mundane bonuses in return for actively destroying magic items. That's probably a bit further than most characters would take it, since a Forsaker even had to actively Spell Resistance against beneficial spells, or lose all benefits of their class for 24 hours.

Ultimately, Kensai doesn't give up much because you can just have your buds throw all those buffs on you and walk away with all the Kensai bonuses. Not having UMD is inconvenient in PVP, sure, but especially late-gen kensai traded that for overwhelming burst potential.

This is a lot of meandering to say that I have absolutely no idea what you'd do with Kensai - save that I think it should be unhooked from any particular "mythology", (i.e. ascetics, sword saints, """samurai""" etc.) and more to do with the play of magic vs mundane, skill vs outside enhancement.

A character that could actively consume and destroy magical items and receive benefits based off of the sort of item, or the remaining charges on the item, could be interesting, but that's also a lot of work - and you have to figure, is it better than ust letting them use the items?

User avatar
flower
Posts: 1287
Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:16 am

Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by flower » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:36 pm

You can never claim "this does not matter because just his buddy uses.." as this argument would apply to any class, any weakness in build and thus is irrelevant :O

User avatar
Tathkar Eisgrim
Posts: 601
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 5:17 pm

Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by Tathkar Eisgrim » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:41 pm

TimeAdept wrote:The idea of an anti-magic martial character is a pretty core DnD concept that goes back to 2e, even... but then, even DnD's vision of the magic eschewing character has varied widely over the years, and become less and less of a thing, especially after 3.5.

Kensai and Arelith's fighters reminded me most of the Forsaker prestige class from 3.5, which received various mundane bonuses in return for actively destroying magic items. That's probably a bit further than most characters would take it, since a Forsaker even had to actively Spell Resistance against beneficial spells, or lose all benefits of their class for 24 hours.

Ultimately, Kensai doesn't give up much because you can just have your buds throw all those buffs on you and walk away with all the Kensai bonuses. Not having UMD is inconvenient in PVP, sure, but especially late-gen kensai traded that for overwhelming burst potential.

This is a lot of meandering to say that I have absolutely no idea what you'd do with Kensai - save that I think it should be unhooked from any particular "mythology", (i.e. ascetics, sword saints, """samurai""" etc.) and more to do with the play of magic vs mundane, skill vs outside enhancement.

A character that could actively consume and destroy magical items and receive benefits based off of the sort of item, or the remaining charges on the item, could be interesting, but that's also a lot of work - and you have to figure, is it better than ust letting them use the items?
Your point about unhooking it from any particular mythology is a good one. Magic vs mundane. Yes.

Griefmaker
Posts: 882
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:33 pm
Location: California

Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by Griefmaker » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:51 pm

I think the PDK class was a good start to giving meleers something more. Building more upon things like that would be great in my opinion (especially if there was a way to add more PrC style classes like PDK to give melee more options and builds more "Flavors").

CragOrion
Arelith Supporter
Arelith Supporter
Posts: 887
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:52 am

Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by CragOrion » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:43 pm

I would LOVE to see a "Samurai" or "Bushi" path or PrC that specialized in Katana single wielding and medium/no armor, without relying on a shield. The main kensai I've played have mostly been attempts at accomplishing this.

Celestia Silverarms
Karynn Eldafire


User avatar
Baseili
Posts: 222
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:09 pm
Location: England

Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by Baseili » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:32 pm

It'd be good to see individual paths for the various martial classes, some quick ones off the top of my head:

Fighter Path: Duelist - Gains a scaling armour/damage bonus while a dagger is in the offhand (+1 per 7 levels?)/ bonus to parry.

Monk Path: Drunken Master - Gain unarmed weapon damage (magic) per x level and while drunk gain AB boost at the expense of dexterity/AC (basically hit more/harder in exchange for being hit more).

Rogue Path: Swashbuckler - Gains an extra attack at full BAB while the offhand is empty and can use a Dirty Trick every minute (3 round daze with DC scaling with rogue levels).

TimeAdept
Posts: 1336
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:02 am

Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:37 pm

I STRONGLY recommend against adding any sort of "extra attack" functionality, as it's shown that they combine in synergy with other classes and features to make hyper powerful burst machines that are quickly nerfed afterwards (Kensai, Berries)

User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 2113
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by -XXX- » Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:31 am

As if you could tell the difference between a barb scim basher and a wm scim basher nowdays.
All I see are point-clicky PvP troll enablers when I look at them.

Nitro
Posts: 2800
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:04 pm

Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by Nitro » Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:57 am

-XXX- wrote: All I see are point-clicky PvP troll enablers when I look at them.
Nice. Real thoughtful of you to sweep everyone under the same rug there.

User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 2113
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by -XXX- » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:09 am

How else would you describe the current version of melee classes /not referring to the players playing them, btw./ that are mediocre at best when it comes to PvE, but virtually designed to effortlessly prevail and excel at PvP?

Nitro
Posts: 2800
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:04 pm

Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by Nitro » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:12 am

Ok, you've lost me. How are these classes not good at PvE? Killing things faster has been the go-to for PvE building since the dawn of time, and if anything these 'pvp builds' as you call them are excellently optimized for that.

User avatar
Baseili
Posts: 222
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:09 pm
Location: England

Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by Baseili » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:14 am

TimeAdept wrote:I STRONGLY recommend against adding any sort of "extra attack" functionality, as it's shown that they combine in synergy with other classes and features to make hyper powerful burst machines that are quickly nerfed afterwards (Kensai, Berries)
Well there is the condition of having an empty offhand meaning 5 attacks base but it was a rough idea, essentially not being as good as a dual wielding rogue in exchange for being able to cause flatfooted in a straight fight. I suppose an extra 1d6 sneak or something else could be just as fitting.

And another for the pile:

Barbarian path: Beserker - Gain dual wielding feats and +4 AB while wielding weapons one size lower than the wielder. Instead of the current rage bonuses, they'd gain full strength modifier for both hands while active but with stacking 1 AC lost for every round the rage is active + 1 round afterwards. (So 2 rounds of rage will be a -2 AC for four rounds.)

User avatar
Cortex
Posts: 3553
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:12 pm

Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by Cortex » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:15 am

-XXX- wrote:How else would you describe the current version of melee classes /not referring to the players playing them, btw./ that are mediocre at best when it comes to PvE, but virtually designed to effortlessly prevail and excel at PvP?
lol
:)

User avatar
BegoneThoth
Posts: 1589
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:20 am

Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by BegoneThoth » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:20 am

-XXX- wrote:How else would you describe the current version of melee classes /not referring to the players playing them, btw./ that are mediocre at best when it comes to PvE, but virtually designed to effortlessly prevail and excel at PvP?
in this game pvp builds excel at pve
\

User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 2113
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by -XXX- » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:41 am

Nitro wrote:Ok, you've lost me. How are these classes not good at PvE? Killing things faster has been the go-to for PvE building since the dawn of time, and if anything these 'pvp builds' as you call them are excellently optimized for that.
You need to retain sustainability during PvE first and foremost. There are crit immune mobs, creatures spamming AoE spells and instacasting damage shields (not even mentionning spawns with 70+ AB) These are all factors that can result in the environment out-attritionning the meleer. From my experience, you can often see casters soloing more often than melee charcters - I'd say that there's a valid reason for that.

Anyway, it was not my intention to derail this thread by claims that some members of this community might find rather controversial (and in some cases maybe even hilariously amusing).

What I was aiming at was pointing out that any "flavorful" variations on melee classes might look neat on the character sheet, but ultimately will end up being just a "bloke with a pointy stick". The rest is just number crunching (read: balancing their DPS burst - which appears to be one of the major issues with the custom melee classes and something that the devs have been struggling with for some time - at least according to my impression).
BegoneThoth wrote:in this game pvp builds excel at pve
That is a factually incorrect and thereby invalid statement. Mechanics that are efficient at killing PCs are not always equally efficient at killing monsters (that often possess unique properties not accessable to PCs)

User avatar
Xanos950
Posts: 268
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:00 am

Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by Xanos950 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:52 am

-XXX- wrote: From my experience, you can often see casters soloing more often than melee charcters - I'd say that there's a valid reason for that.
Those things are called water elementals and they have nothing to do with the point you're trying to make.

User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 2113
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by -XXX- » Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:04 am

Not all casters rely on those.

Still, since you mentioned it, I'd say that the fact that you can remove a melee character from any adventuring party and easily substitute for it with a water elemental actually supports my point, wouldn't you say?

User avatar
Xanos950
Posts: 268
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:00 am

Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by Xanos950 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:20 am

Your point is that you have none, otherwise you wouldn't jump from one statement to the other to try and find something to bite onto. Your initial post was a can of salt about how simple and troll scim builds are, correct me if i'm wrong but that's what it boils down to.

You can solo in pve as a pvp built melee build just as e z as with any caster build. Either you built properly or you didn't. PvE/PvM is all about dishing out damage, and if those mobs have 70+ ab as you say then it doesn't matter what build you have, you'll have to throw kits to heal that damage anyway. So?

User avatar
BegoneThoth
Posts: 1589
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:20 am

Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by BegoneThoth » Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:23 am

-XXX- wrote:
BegoneThoth wrote:in this game pvp builds excel at pve
That is a factually incorrect and thereby invalid statement. Mechanics that are efficient at killing PCs are not always equally efficient at killing monsters (that often possess unique properties not accessable to PCs)
like what

most pvp builds focus on max apr, max ab, and max ac.

what part of having those things fails in pve or is 'inefficient' in pve
\

User avatar
telmarael
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:58 am

Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by telmarael » Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:30 am

The thing is, most of players wanted to be wizards when they first saw this game (most likely) as a child. I was not an exception. Therefore we get the magic-centered worlds, and there's really no way to deal with it, besides deleting all magic - otherwise, no matter how minor, people will still reach out for it.

On the topic - nwn2 had quite a few melee class variations. Looking into them might be worth giving a shot? And I'd say that it's a lot more reasonable to make them as a path for rogue (as those were dex-based). Personally, no matter how attached I am to magic classes, after all they are a reason I love the game so much, I'd definitely try out something like a duelist, if it was atleast sub-optimal!
- "I would rather not touch this shiny pile of gold", said her conscience
*sounds of explosion*

User avatar
-XXX-
Posts: 2113
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:49 am

Re: Kensai - Back to the Drawing Board?

Post by -XXX- » Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:38 am

BegoneThoth wrote: like what

most pvp builds focus on max apr, max ab, and max ac.

what part of having those things fails in pve or is 'inefficient' in pve
IDK, "optimally built WMs" are usually the ones who cost me the most rezz scrolls during PvE ventures (anecdotal evidence, I know), since the entire toolkit of those builds mostly boils down to "leeroying".

And YES, any possible new melee class variation would just end up becoming another venue to boringly max apr,/ab/ac the way you describe, making it virtually indistinguishable from what we already have. Plz don't
Xanos950 wrote:Your point is that you have none
Then why bother arguing with me?
For example in the case of those 70+ AB monsters things like CC spells can be invaluable. CC spells that, for example, the barbarian class has been tweaked to utterly disregard making the CC spell user better at such PvE encounters while suffering during PvP encounters.
I'd greatly appreciate if the "my ab/ac/apr is better than yours, ergo I'm correct" mentality would be applied less in threads like these in the future, thx. Following such line of reasoning would suggest that wizards are bad, which I'm sure many would agree that is a rather ridiculous claim.

Locked