The Secret Life of Gnomes - Revive the Gnomish RP!

[azrael_athing]

Makign the Grotto its own thing is just going to make it rather empty, as there is never really that much of an active gnome player base, which caters to one race. Also I don't think Brogendenstein banishments have any mechanical effect on the Grotto, FYI, so the above isn't really true. There's room for contestment of that IC decision if that's the route you wanted to do.

Brogendenstein has both Bannishmentrights (mechanical) and evictionrights in Grotto

edit: Personally I would narrow down the field of the mechanical Bannishments, as they do not forward RP. For instance the Burrowhome Bannishment spans both Burrowhome, and Grayhammer.
Brogendenstein covers, Brogendenstein interior, Brogendenstein exterior (both towards water and mountain) and the Great Grotto?

My idea of Mechanical Bannishments is they being used on individuals (greifers), who simply break the first rule of Arelith, "RP". Without the need to get in touch of a DM to handle the issue for you. For it is not certain one will be around in time to set straight the damage that can be caused to excisting RP, Fixtures, or even metagame information.

I would therefore narrow down all Mechanical Bannishments to only fit the actual interior of the main settlement.

[If Valor Were Inches]

Makign the Grotto its own thing is just going to make it rather empty, as there is never really that much of an active gnome player base, which caters to one race. Also I don't think Brogendenstein banishments have any mechanical effect on the Grotto, FYI, so the above isn't really true. There's room for contestment of that IC decision if that's the route you wanted to do.

Brogendenstein has both Bannishmentrights (mechanical) and evictionrights in Grotto

I stand corrected!

[azrael_athing]

Having a place like the grotto under the turret, accessible only to gnomes, and making the turret/grotto a full government with elections and all, would be a good move.

As well as making it non-earthkin alliance.

As-long we are NOT talking about a fullsize settlement, I am in agreement, Like a back-room, that is accessable only to the ones of the correct race, or in company of said race.

Adding a settlement for the Gnomes is not what we want to go for IMO.

Also majority of rock gnomes didnt see themselves to be in Grotto as its too UDish and closed, and well Svirfneblins if taking path to surface is mostly to pick up the trade and nothing else-their focus is mostly on UD also their interaction with UD races what is another reason why this merge is not possible even if rock gnomes would agree to svirfs way, for me seeing rock gnome walking around Andunor not in chains is at least weird if its not an Outcast, same as it would elf, fey or dwarf also seeing svirfneblin roaming the surface as after all should be alien race to all of them except shield dwarfs what is implied within the module, playing above that makes no difference than playing the r.gnome only that you can walk freely around Andunor and use Hub portal.

I would not narrow down the Gnomes in these manners. Gnomes as I understand it are rediculusly versitile and adapts very well to their surroundings. For the Rock Gnome, espessially after the Times of Troubles, as more Rock Gnomes are finding their way out of the settlements to attempt to tackle life outside it.

I see nothing wrong with free Rock Gnome working the Merchantile scene in Andunor. I could easily see any of them traders and merchants, without a moral compass. And would as such trade and co-opperate with who-ever. Even Drow.

It may not be their favourite surrounding, but Gold is always Gold.

Uniting gnomes strictly and openly would bring unbalance to RP of both races RP in their primary area of influnce, surface and underdark but that doesnt mean they cant cooperate.

I think forcing the Gnomes together would ofcourse land as a bombshell, it is a huge change, but it is also what many of our characters have been trying to do for the last two years, to find that common ground among the Gnomes. And it has almost developed two strickly opposing political doctrines:

One conservative branch, which will remain in the old ways and trust in the Lords, fronted by the pious Wardens and the Deep-gnome at large

And one nearly revolutionary branch which wants to change everything, including what Gods we revere, fronted totaly cray cray Lawbreakers and by freedom-first loving Lantanese Rock Gnomes.

And this political RP field, has been amazing, as long as they were balanced towards eachother.

Perhaps it is just I who interpered it this way, but I would say a forced merge be a good thing. Same as it would be a good thing with the Earthkin Settlement.

With that being said Svirfnblin also are lead by a King and Queen unless otherwise described (which I'm unsure if this is true about the Grotto). Having already a Kingship, there wouldn't be much sense for Deep Gnomes to offer govern over a Turret which isn't even in their isolated underdark cavern. In addition Deep Gnomes go life times without seeing the Sunlight, every Deep Gnome that are traditional / cultured to their way of life can't tell the difference from Day and Night.

The local Grotto is not a strict Deep-gnome settlement, even if it is most Deep-gnome who live there, but among the permanent residents are also a couple of Rock Gnomes, ONE Forest Gnome, and a Dwarf.

The local Grotto also lack the traditional King and Queen of the Deep-gnome since november 2016? (uncertain of exact date), when we removed that concept of rulership IC. (The king and queen of Deep-gnomes do not forward a royal line, but are selected through trials and sit for life.)

To make a long conversation short: Svirfneblins would have little use for another "area" outside of their cavern. Even if it is for unification towards another Gnome party.

I agree partly, as I don't think that each Gnome subrace need their own space as such, rather then we need to be forced to work together. Therefore I don't think the suggestion was to hold multiple Grottos, but rather have a location which caters for all the Gnome without favoring the one.

It's not an ideal situation, and feels more like the way a strong population would treat a 'conquered' people.

This is pretty much the feeling I have had playing a Gnome within the Earthkin Alliance as well.

With love
Terto Tarquin

[A little fellow]

I think unifying races mechanically is a bad idea in general. Races are supposed to have differences. When you are forced to be together it becomes a battle to see who's differences win, and shape the direction these two mechanically united Races progress.

When Races aren't mechanically unified, and have their own lands to govern, relations between races become about how to work around these differences and co-exist.

As for the Brogendenstein/Grotto dynamic, I see its positives and negatives. Firstly its the fact that Svirfneblin are not a popular race to place, which is a shame because I think they are an interesting people. Being linked to Brog and other Earthkin gives more people the chance to roll up a Svirf and start mining. Knowing this it makes sense to have Brogendenstein and the Grotto are linked, but everything beyond that is grey area that has to be worked out between players, and anything strictly between players has a tendency to die out after a generation, which in Arelith terms is only a couple of months barring a few exceptions.

It's because of this that other mechanical unities also struggle, such as the Earthkin Alliance. Dwarfs, Hin and Gnomes similarities start and end at their size, their differences are (especially in the Arelith setting) HUGE, so huge that it doesn't justify a merge, so huge that it barely justifies an alliance. For the entirety of my time on my current Dwarf, the feeling between the races/settlements of the Earthkin Alliance is one of ignorance and contempt for each other. The Earthkin Alliance is something that is ignored, because good rarely comes from it.


I'll finally say I think the matter between Tungsten Turret and Brogendenstein was purely an IC matter, and does not reflect upon a consistent theme with the Gnomen playerbase.

- Turret's Administrator was judged an Exile from Earthkin matters on the Isle
- Gnomes claim the Turret is sovereign lands from the EA, despite being situated in Bendir lands, and having Earthkin Alliance soldiers outside the Turret itself
- Brogendenstein responds by suggesting an annex of the Turret if the Administrator is not removed (seeing as the Turret was claimed to be sovereign lands, annexation wouldn't be an action against Bendir, or any Earthkin lands)
- The Gnomes boycotted the Turret alongside the Exile Administrator, and all left rather than comply

That is not one Race being conquered by the other, that is people doing not-so-good things and having consequences brought upon them for their actions.

[If Valor Were Inches]

That seems more IC, the Turret situation. No issue with it.

The alliance part seems more of a reflection of the current situation rather than the overall, century lasting situation. It may be akeen to siblings bickering due to being around eachother all of the time, where they were not so close before, but still coming together when it counts.

[Sab1]

Problem with the Brogendenstein/Grotto situation is most gnomes I have known felt bullied by the dwarves and never an equal partner. It was described to me once like the dwarves are the landlord and the gnomes the tenant.

The issue really is not many gnomes yet they are spread out over too many locations. Turret, Grotto, Bendir. Then it gets broken down to Svirf need a place, surface gnomes need a place. The grotto has been underutilized for awhile even though many have tried to get it going. I think like Myon all elves, bendir, Brog all dwarves. That all gnomes need a situation where unlike at brog they can't be blocked off or make both places npc and the gnomes have to choose what settlement to belong to.

The brog/turret situation though also shows the problem. The gnomes are at the mercy of others. Brog doesn't like you, well you can be blocked from the grotto, etc. If the gnomes are to have a place, they need to feel like they have some control instead of just being nomads in the EA, or make both places NPC.

[If Valor Were Inches]

I can confirm the Turret is not block able in that way of exile/removal. And it's owned by an NPC. It really ought to be viewed as a wilderness quarter almost for that reason.

[A little fellow]

Problem with the Brogendenstein/Grotto situation is most gnomes I have known felt bullied by the dwarves and never an equal partner. It was described to me once like the dwarves are the landlord and the gnomes the tenant.

The brog/turret situation though also shows the problem. The gnomes are at the mercy of others. Brog doesn't like you, well you can be blocked from the grotto, etc. If the gnomes are to have a place, they need to feel like they have some control instead of just being nomads in the EA, or make both places NPC.

Well I’ve RPed in Brog for the past 2 years, I’ve never heard of any OOC complaint regarding bullying, but it’s not that the Svirfs should be equal, because the Grotto is on Brogendenstein lands, and mechanically the leader has powers to exile people from it, and evict people also. That’s the way it is literally set up to be, I would prefer if it wasn’t the case but this is the hand we are dealt.

On the Brog/Turret situation, it is absolutely not the case that if Brog doesn’t “like you”, then you can be banned from the grotto. It’s the case of if youur character does things worthy of being banned in the eyes of these characters, then they can be banned - this is roleplay yes? Actions must have consequences. To call it simple bullying is shortsighted.

[BegoneThoth]

The grotto is almost like a satellite of Brog when it should be its own full independent thing.

Make the turret a full gnome only settlement, close/block the grotto/Brog door, and make a gnome only portal from the turret to the grotto, so gnomes can actually be gnomes and not be under the thumb of draconian dwarf rule with no guaranteed say in government.

[If Valor Were Inches]

Despite ALF's points, there isn't a player count for gnomes to make a settlement worthwhile, and I don't think having four racial settlements is the way to go. This is why I suggested a mixed pot. That has its issues, but better conflict than emptiness, personally.

There will be the new Skal in a few weeks as is, even if it isn't a settlement in the same way like other places.

[BegoneThoth]

I think if the area was more attractive to RP in the population would go up.

But there would also need to be some system in place to prevent the settlement I propose from instantly declaring vassalage to Brog.

[A little fellow]

Despite ALF's points, there isn't a player count for gnomes to make a settlement worthwhile, and I don't think having four racial settlements is the way to go. This is why I suggested a mixed pot. That has its issues, but better conflict than emptiness, personally.

There will be the new Skal in a few weeks as is, even if it isn't a settlement in the same way like other places.

It's true, there isn't a player count.

I had a few talks with a prominent Svirfneblin player in the Grotto, and we thought a cool idea would be to have the Grotto become officially Svirfneblin settlement, that is still 'linked' to Brogendenstein. Mainly for the fact that Svirfneblin have more in common with Dwarves than their Rock Gnome cousins. That would be a safe merge that could foster RP for two races comfortably. I think it's difficult to pitch the idea that Rock Gnomes, who are generally fun lovers by nature should be lumped together with the stern survivalists that are Svirfneblin .. these two traits are bound to clash at some point.

Have the Svirfneblin Grotto linked to Brogendenstein still, but make it so that there are two doors, one which Brogendenstein can lock, and another that the Grotto can lock. Meaning that the Grotto keeps its secrecy and Brogendenstein has some security from the UD passages.

There is of course the fact that the Grotto isn't really up to the standards of Brogendenstein, and even Brogendenstein leaves much to be desired. An overhaul of the settlement worked for Bendir, which was barren for large stretches leading up to the update, an overhaul of the Grotto could do the same I feel.

[azrael_athing]

Well I’ve RPed in Brog for the past 2 years, I’ve never heard of any OOC complaint regarding bullying, but it’s not that the Svirfs should be equal, because the Grotto is on Brogendenstein lands, and mechanically the leader has powers to exile people from it, and evict people also. That’s the way it is literally set up to be, I would prefer if it wasn’t the case but this is the hand we are dealt.

On the Brog/Turret situation, it is absolutely not the case that if Brog doesn’t “like you”, then you can be banned from the grotto. It’s the case of if youur character does things worthy of being banned in the eyes of these characters, then they can be banned - this is roleplay yes? Actions must have consequences. To call it simple bullying is shortsighted.

I don't truly understand your point, one can still be under effects of bullying even if it is totaly IC, which the Dwarfs of Brogendenstein at point have excersised.

That said the only time I actually had to get a DM involved was when we had two Svirf-players that started to attack my character repeatedly at sight, for being a Rock Gnome. And when a dwarf decided to hell-ball me after five short lines.

But the exact point that BegoneThoth is stressing is that the "Grotto is on Brogendenstein lands" is an obstacle for flurishing Gnome RP, as they can not decide over who is welcome and not. I do not however agree to that the Gnome community needs a mechanical settlement to forward the RP, Just as Valor has explained, there simply isn't a Gnome playerbase for a settlement. But it seams the Gnome community flurish when they are left alone to do their thing.

I can confirm the Turret is not block able in that way of exile/removal. And it's owned by an NPC. It really ought to be viewed as a wilderness quarter almost for that reason.

I belive it is currently private property of Methusia, the High Artificer (A title given the high preists of Gond), and it belongs to her and the Church of Gond, because it is a Temple to him?

Gnomes claim the Turret is sovereign lands from the EA, despite being situated in Bendir lands, and having Earthkin Alliance soldiers outside the Turret itself

Always considered the Turret to lay on the border of Mayfields, rather then on the border of Bendir Dale. It is some crude assessment to figure that Bendir Dale would expand all the way to the transition point to the Mayfields map, especially after the expansion of the Bendir Dale regions.


We are all simply trying to playing our characters here as a community, and I find it crucial, That we allow eachother too do so. As part of the "Be Nice" rule, for if we will stomp out any spark of RP that doesn't suit us, we won't experience near half as much.

This counts for both the, "You are playing your character wrong", kind of mentality, but also another less easily spotted problem.

In order for everyone to have a good time, we might require a change in player mentality.

Perhaps we can allow our characters nemesis some breathing space, perhaps we can refrain from chosing to engage with the opposing factions recruits, (low levels, no-one likes a gank), in conflict, and perhaps, a point I wish to stress, a behavior I have witnessed again and again. perhaps NOT forcing factions out of locations, which will without them being there, stand empty.

(The common Wharftown problem, to which team good used to go once every year to vote, in order to make sure that team Evil, wouldn't get hold of the settlement. This might be an old problem, I am uncertain how much of this still went on when Wharftown was still standing last.)

It can make all the IC sense in the world to do that, but it fails to promote RP.


With love
Terto Tarquin.

ps. Also, the Exiled Administrator administrated the Wolfram Workshop (player faction), not the Tungsten Turret (npc property). And instead of fighting the Dwarfs over the Turret, the Workshop has set up elsewhere.

[Sab1]

First I said blocked from grotto not turret. Also this isn't about IC actions shouldn't have IC consequences. I never said OOC complaints either, as Az said you can feel IC you are being bullied without it becoming an OOC issue. Just because they felt Brog was being a bully doesn't mean they were making OOC complaints. I simply said gnomes I had known felt as if Brog never consider them am equal parter, they are basicily as Begone said "a satellite of Brog". I simply think gnomes might be more attracted to a place if they felt they had some sort of independence.

[Eternally_Faithful]

Honestly, I have to agree with Terto,

It has become the norm to run players out of all factions and areas that we don't enjoy, Terto is a great example of this most recently and I actually made some refusal to actually take part in it with Bendir. Declaring the Turret its own place and on its own land.

Sometimes we need to bend what we would ICly do, for what might be more fun in the end. Would it be IC to run Terto off the face of Arelith and PK him a thousand times? Run him out of every single surface settlement, since he has what, Cordor left? Maybe? But is that fun for all the players involved? Does it add to the story in a meaningful way? No, I don't think it really does. It more severs any rp for those stuck. IC actions have IC consequences sure, thats important, but so is the Be Nice rule and to allow other people to have fun.

[Xerah]

The natural place for rock gnomes is Bendir but that’s always been super awkward. I do agree that deep gnomes do have more in common with dwarves (also for logistics reasons) but there has always been that hostility with trying to intergrate into Bendir (maybe that’s different now).

[A little fellow]

I don't truly understand your point, one can still be under effects of bullying even if it is totaly IC, which the Dwarfs of Brogendenstein at point have excersised.

That said the only time I actually had to get a DM involved was when we had two Svirf-players that started to attack my character repeatedly at sight, for being a Rock Gnome. And when a dwarf decided to hell-ball me after five short lines.

It was mainly in reply to suggestions that Brogendenstein or it's players specifically had bullied people. I think though, if it's totally IC, you can't class it as bullying. IC bullying, but not outright bullying by the player/players.

.. on the matter of the Dwarf hellballing you after five short lines, in the interest of fairness and honesty, you'd probably do good to mention the weeks of RP that led to him hellballing you after five short lines.

Always considered the Turret to lay on the border of Mayfields, rather then on the border of Bendir Dale. It is some crude assessment to figure that Bendir Dale would expand all the way to the transition point to the Mayfields map, especially after the expansion of the Bendir Dale regions.

It is situated in an area titled "Bendir Dale" and has Earthkin Alliance soldiers stationed outside its doorstep.

We are all simply trying to playing our characters here as a community, and I find it crucial, That we allow eachother too do so. As part of the "Be Nice" rule, for if we will stomp out any spark of RP that doesn't suit us, we won't experience near half as much.

This counts for both the, "You are playing your character wrong", kind of mentality, but also another less easily spotted problem.

In order for everyone to have a good time, we might require a change in player mentality.

Perhaps we can allow our characters nemesis some breathing space, perhaps we can refrain from chosing to engage with the opposing factions recruits, (low levels, no-one likes a gank), in conflict, and perhaps, a point I wish to stress, a behavior I have witnessed again and again. perhaps NOT forcing factions out of locations, which will without them being there, stand empty.

Actions having consequences is one of the strongest examples of meaningful RP you will find on Arelith, players not enjoying the consequences of their characters actions is not a breach of the Be Nice rule, nor should any guilt be put on the people who are bringing down these consequences. Having a mentality of "Just leave us alone, who cares about the growing list of grievances against you" is in my mind a large part of the problem with some communities on Arelith that I shall not name. Because that mentality undermines RP, and leads to players avoiding consequences for their characters actions.

Perhaps not playing an evil character puts a player in a better position to hold down these properties without other characters trying to get RP out of their removal.

[A little fellow]

Honestly, I have to agree with Terto,

It has become the norm to run players out of all factions and areas that we don't enjoy, Terto is a great example of this most recently and I actually made some refusal to actually take part in it with Bendir. Declaring the Turret its own place and on its own land.

Sometimes we need to bend what we would ICly do, for what might be more fun in the end. Would it be IC to run Terto off the face of Arelith and PK him a thousand times? Run him out of every single surface settlement, since he has what, Cordor left? Maybe? But is that fun for all the players involved? Does it add to the story in a meaningful way? No, I don't think it really does. It more severs any rp for those stuck. IC actions have IC consequences sure, thats important, but so is the Be Nice rule and to allow other people to have fun.

Terto was not ran off the face of Arelith though, only the lands in which he committed grave crimes, and the ICly deemed immediately surrounding area (which I still kinda think counts as the Earthkin Alliance). Nor was he PKed a thousand times.

If players want to stick around settlements for the RP they bring, don't murder people in them.

[Eternally_Faithful]

Honestly I found the Turret confusing the RP demanded independence then put Earthkin soldiers outfront, I kinda blame the DMs on that one too, but it should be considered independent, Bendir does not claim to own that land at all.

[A little fellow]

Honestly I found the Turret confusing the RP demanded independence then put Earthkin soldiers outfront, I kinda blame the DMs on that one too, but it should be considered independent, Bendir does not claim to own that land at all.

Totally agree. But I find a lot of things revolving around the Earthkin Alliance to be confusing. Everything is so much easier when you do not have to focus on it.

[Intrepid42]

I can confirm that, as a newish player, it is possible to play manipulative (and even pro-greed) evil in Brogendenstein without exile. One works out what the "rules" are, and skirt around them, making oneself useful occasionally. One can get up to all sorts of mischief, discretely.

[Petrifictus]

I hope NWN EE will bring us more gnomes. Glad to read that there's some gnome activity elsewhere, hopefully Wotan succeed to build a place for "Bendir Gnomes."

No one was bullied away with Terto's exile. This was a one of many results through awesome long roleplay which continues going on.

[Eternally_Faithful]

its a bit more unrealistic though when 1 group owns 98% of the surface settlements, literally making it impossible for RP anywhere there. Thus why some bending of RP can be needed.

[A Streetcar Named Desire]

its a bit more unrealistic though when 1 group owns 98% of the surface settlements, literally making it impossible for RP anywhere there. Thus why some bending of RP can be needed.

That's not true. Not the 98% part, not the impossible for RP anywhere there part, not the some bending of RP is needed part.

5 Surface "Settlements", Guldorand, Bendir, Myon, Cordor, Brogendenstein.

Everything else is not a true settlement.

This is 40% if we're talking about Brog (Who have some great players, by the way, and ought to be more trusted) And of all of the settlements, realistically, most characters are not going to be very inconvenienced by Guldorand being barred as well, or even Brogendenstein if you aren't an earthkin. Plus you can perform/bluff your way through things, and exiles cost resources and money, so putting them on people who are merely nuisances is probably unwise when they're better valued on actual violent threats, making RP very possible without bending.

I play a character whose concept is not sacrificing who she is underneath no matter the views of Order, a huge champion of individual expression that prizes the arts and the sanctity of life. Exiled twice from Bendir for what chalked up to mischief (Not exiled presently), but I've never bent her, and I don't think I ever will, in such a way to make her time there easier.

I've played another character who has been almost exiled from everywhere except Brog and Guldorand. Didn't really bend her either, and this is character that is obviously villainous.

In conclusion, it's a workable situation that will just take time. When I was playing my priestess of Sheyanna, I think the gnome situation in Bendir was far more tense with gnome conflict, but from what I see the acceptance has improved a bit.

[Eternally_Faithful]

Brog currently leads Guldorand, Brog, the Grotto and Darrowdeep, Myon is elves only (which I don't like to begin with) and Bendir which I have always been willing to bend a bit on (which for note is the only actual reason Katie isn't exiled from Bendir.)