Brief Detect Guide
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Brief Detect Guide
Hey, hopefully this will help people out that haven't had to deal without almost permanent TS mechanics before.
Spot vs Listen
Spot rolls are made vs hide, listen are made vs move silently.
Generally speaking you should take listen if you're not heavily investing into a skill and spot if you are.
Spot is more useful than listen, as when you spot someone, you aren't considered flatfooted when the sneaker attacks you. However, it is easier to gain the hide skill for a sneaking opponent (Camouflage and SD / level bonuses) so unless you invest lots and have ESF, as well as skill bonuses, you won't be very successful.
Listen, however, you will be considered flatfooted (Unless you have the Blind Fight feat, in which case you will not be flatfooted but still flanked [effectively eligible for a sneak attack])- whether or not you are targeting the opponent. However, you will be able to detect an opponent more easily, because it is harder to raise MS against hide.
Listen should be the go-to for any caster characters as, in general, you will not get in melee range for it to matter that you're flatfooted.
Ways to obtain TS:
Note that once you have spotted someone, even with TS, you will still see them when your TS fades until they break line of sight.
Aside from the short duration TS spell, you have several ways to obtain, or effectively obtain, TS.
Polymorph self: Umberhulk
Shapechange: Red Dragon
You can pop into these two shapes to obtain true seeing, then immediately pop out to attack a sneaking opponent.
Summoning an EDK, or a Mordekainens Sword, will also give you effective true seeing - it will allow you to see where a sneaker is by the summon targeting it.
This can be exceptionally useful as you can keep your distance, while the sneaker potentially takes damage and additionally give you targeting assistance for AOE spells or abilities.
Environment:
Fighting a sneaky opponent is heavily dependant on environment.
Do not stand near corners, or anywhere that makes it very easy and quick for a sneaker to break line of sight. Open plains are the best for you.
Don't chase a sneaker unless you're a monk. By doing so, you'll be putting yourself in an environment that benefits them - whether it's close to a corner, or into a bunch of traps.
Feel free to add tips and tricks on! Try and keep them simple!
Spot vs Listen
Spot rolls are made vs hide, listen are made vs move silently.
Generally speaking you should take listen if you're not heavily investing into a skill and spot if you are.
Spot is more useful than listen, as when you spot someone, you aren't considered flatfooted when the sneaker attacks you. However, it is easier to gain the hide skill for a sneaking opponent (Camouflage and SD / level bonuses) so unless you invest lots and have ESF, as well as skill bonuses, you won't be very successful.
Listen, however, you will be considered flatfooted (Unless you have the Blind Fight feat, in which case you will not be flatfooted but still flanked [effectively eligible for a sneak attack])- whether or not you are targeting the opponent. However, you will be able to detect an opponent more easily, because it is harder to raise MS against hide.
Listen should be the go-to for any caster characters as, in general, you will not get in melee range for it to matter that you're flatfooted.
Ways to obtain TS:
Note that once you have spotted someone, even with TS, you will still see them when your TS fades until they break line of sight.
Aside from the short duration TS spell, you have several ways to obtain, or effectively obtain, TS.
Polymorph self: Umberhulk
Shapechange: Red Dragon
You can pop into these two shapes to obtain true seeing, then immediately pop out to attack a sneaking opponent.
Summoning an EDK, or a Mordekainens Sword, will also give you effective true seeing - it will allow you to see where a sneaker is by the summon targeting it.
This can be exceptionally useful as you can keep your distance, while the sneaker potentially takes damage and additionally give you targeting assistance for AOE spells or abilities.
Environment:
Fighting a sneaky opponent is heavily dependant on environment.
Do not stand near corners, or anywhere that makes it very easy and quick for a sneaker to break line of sight. Open plains are the best for you.
Don't chase a sneaker unless you're a monk. By doing so, you'll be putting yourself in an environment that benefits them - whether it's close to a corner, or into a bunch of traps.
Feel free to add tips and tricks on! Try and keep them simple!
Last edited by Sockss on Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.
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Re: Brief Detect Guide
Wrong, it should still be Spot, because Listen will not let you Target the character - they're treated as Invisible - seeable on your screen, but not selectable by targetted effects.Listen should be the go-to for any caster characters as, in general, you will not get in melee range for it to matter that you're flatfooted.
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Re: Brief Detect Guide
Great tips. This might be better in the reference/guide section!
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Re: Brief Detect Guide
There are very few spells which are worth casting on a sneaker that aren't AoE.TimeAdept wrote:Wrong, it should still be Spot, because Listen will not let you Target the character - they're treated as Invisible - seeable on your screen, but not selectable by targetted effects.Listen should be the go-to for any caster characters as, in general, you will not get in melee range for it to matter that you're flatfooted.
IGMS, weird, wail, cloud spells. Etc.
If you must target them with something directly, then you can lure them into the open and pop true seeing.
Listen is better for casters, since it's easier to detect with!
(Although I think you can target listened characters? I'll test it quick!)
And feel free to move it!
Edit: Seem to be targeting people fine when listened!
Last edited by Sockss on Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brief Detect Guide
Not to mention that Listen can actually detect invisible units? Or am I horrible mistaken?
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Re: Brief Detect Guide
That's some kind of bug with invis itself, I think.
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Re: Brief Detect Guide
Only in max attack range, it doesn't really come into play much and keeping see invis up for any detector is useful.
In general: Spot > listen if you have big investment. It lets you not be flatfooted on the first attack flurry. However it's easier to get hide - so half-arsed investment won't usually cut it.
Listen > Spot in the cases where that first flurry doesn't matter (E.G. playing a caster or a ranged character).
In general: Spot > listen if you have big investment. It lets you not be flatfooted on the first attack flurry. However it's easier to get hide - so half-arsed investment won't usually cut it.
Listen > Spot in the cases where that first flurry doesn't matter (E.G. playing a caster or a ranged character).
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Re: Brief Detect Guide
What about middling investment (20-25 ranks, no skill focus), mélee character, but with uncanny dodge?
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Re: Brief Detect Guide
Not quite complete:Listen, however, you will be considered flatfooted - whether or not you are targeting the opponent. However, you will be able to detect an opponent more easily, because it is harder to raise MS against hide.
(emphasis added)NWN Wiki wrote:A character will be considered flat-footed if attacked by an unseen creature, unless the attacker is heard and the character has the blind fight feat.
Re: Brief Detect Guide
Updated!
I believe they are still 'flanked' however, so you will still receive sneak attacks?
I believe they are still 'flanked' however, so you will still receive sneak attacks?
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.
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Re: Brief Detect Guide
With middling ranks you could detect someone with middling-low sneak.Cataclysm of Iron wrote:What about middling investment (20-25 ranks, no skill focus), mélee character, but with uncanny dodge?
Uncanny dodge will prevent you from losing your dex bonus if you're caught by an undetected sneaker.
Thankfully this team is no longer being used.
Sockss#5567 for nwn mechanics questions.
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Re: Brief Detect Guide
That's right--you'll still receive sneak attacks on the first flurry if you detect them through listen but not spot (but only the first flurry--once they attack, they're no longer in stealth so it doesn't matter if you were using spot or listen).Sockss wrote:Updated!
I believe they are still 'flanked' however, so you will still receive sneak attacks?
This is because sneak attack applies if the target is flat-footed, flanked, or if the target doesn't see the attacker. When you detect them through listen, your character doesn't actually see them.
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Re: Brief Detect Guide
I actually think it makes sense, as invisibility is actualy only covering your visual self in the illusion of not being there, things like your footsteps, your breath, or your scent wouldn't be masked by it?*One Two Three Five wrote:That's some kind of bug with invis itself, I think.
I am uncertain if listen can be used to pinpoint the location of a character affected by Sanctuary?
*Correct me if I am wrong.
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Re: Brief Detect Guide
Can we double check if umber hulk from polymorph self actually gets TS? I seem to remember it not showing up as an active icon or effect on the character sheet last I checked, which was admittedly several months ago, so my memory might be a little off
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Re: Brief Detect Guide
Umberhulk does get TS.
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Re: Brief Detect Guide
Hey, awesome tips! Thanks.
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