Brief Detect Guide

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Sockss
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Brief Detect Guide

Post by Sockss » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:19 pm

Hey, hopefully this will help people out that haven't had to deal without almost permanent TS mechanics before.

Spot vs Listen

Spot rolls are made vs hide, listen are made vs move silently.

Generally speaking you should take listen if you're not heavily investing into a skill and spot if you are.

Spot is more useful than listen, as when you spot someone, you aren't considered flatfooted when the sneaker attacks you. However, it is easier to gain the hide skill for a sneaking opponent (Camouflage and SD / level bonuses) so unless you invest lots and have ESF, as well as skill bonuses, you won't be very successful.

Listen, however, you will be considered flatfooted (Unless you have the Blind Fight feat, in which case you will not be flatfooted but still flanked [effectively eligible for a sneak attack])- whether or not you are targeting the opponent. However, you will be able to detect an opponent more easily, because it is harder to raise MS against hide.

Listen should be the go-to for any caster characters as, in general, you will not get in melee range for it to matter that you're flatfooted.

Ways to obtain TS:

Note that once you have spotted someone, even with TS, you will still see them when your TS fades until they break line of sight.

Aside from the short duration TS spell, you have several ways to obtain, or effectively obtain, TS.

Polymorph self: Umberhulk
Shapechange: Red Dragon

You can pop into these two shapes to obtain true seeing, then immediately pop out to attack a sneaking opponent.

Summoning an EDK, or a Mordekainens Sword, will also give you effective true seeing - it will allow you to see where a sneaker is by the summon targeting it.

This can be exceptionally useful as you can keep your distance, while the sneaker potentially takes damage and additionally give you targeting assistance for AOE spells or abilities.

Environment:

Fighting a sneaky opponent is heavily dependant on environment.

Do not stand near corners, or anywhere that makes it very easy and quick for a sneaker to break line of sight. Open plains are the best for you.

Don't chase a sneaker unless you're a monk. By doing so, you'll be putting yourself in an environment that benefits them - whether it's close to a corner, or into a bunch of traps.

Feel free to add tips and tricks on! Try and keep them simple!
Last edited by Sockss on Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TimeAdept
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Re: Brief Detect Guide

Post by TimeAdept » Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:05 pm

Listen should be the go-to for any caster characters as, in general, you will not get in melee range for it to matter that you're flatfooted.
Wrong, it should still be Spot, because Listen will not let you Target the character - they're treated as Invisible - seeable on your screen, but not selectable by targetted effects.

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Re: Brief Detect Guide

Post by Queen Titania » Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:06 pm

Great tips. This might be better in the reference/guide section! :)
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Sockss
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Re: Brief Detect Guide

Post by Sockss » Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:15 pm

TimeAdept wrote:
Listen should be the go-to for any caster characters as, in general, you will not get in melee range for it to matter that you're flatfooted.
Wrong, it should still be Spot, because Listen will not let you Target the character - they're treated as Invisible - seeable on your screen, but not selectable by targetted effects.
There are very few spells which are worth casting on a sneaker that aren't AoE.

IGMS, weird, wail, cloud spells. Etc.

If you must target them with something directly, then you can lure them into the open and pop true seeing.

Listen is better for casters, since it's easier to detect with!

(Although I think you can target listened characters? I'll test it quick!)

And feel free to move it!

Edit: Seem to be targeting people fine when listened!
Last edited by Sockss on Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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azrael_athing
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Re: Brief Detect Guide

Post by azrael_athing » Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:32 pm

Not to mention that Listen can actually detect invisible units? Or am I horrible mistaken?

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One Two Three Five
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Re: Brief Detect Guide

Post by One Two Three Five » Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:34 pm

That's some kind of bug with invis itself, I think.
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Sockss
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Re: Brief Detect Guide

Post by Sockss » Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:36 pm

Only in max attack range, it doesn't really come into play much and keeping see invis up for any detector is useful.

In general: Spot > listen if you have big investment. It lets you not be flatfooted on the first attack flurry. However it's easier to get hide - so half-arsed investment won't usually cut it.

Listen > Spot in the cases where that first flurry doesn't matter (E.G. playing a caster or a ranged character).
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Cataclysm of Iron
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Re: Brief Detect Guide

Post by Cataclysm of Iron » Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:42 pm

What about middling investment (20-25 ranks, no skill focus), mélee character, but with uncanny dodge?
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Lorkas
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Re: Brief Detect Guide

Post by Lorkas » Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:43 pm

Listen, however, you will be considered flatfooted - whether or not you are targeting the opponent. However, you will be able to detect an opponent more easily, because it is harder to raise MS against hide.
Not quite complete:
NWN Wiki wrote:A character will be considered flat-footed if attacked by an unseen creature, unless the attacker is heard and the character has the blind fight feat.
(emphasis added)

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Sockss
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Re: Brief Detect Guide

Post by Sockss » Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:22 pm

Updated!

I believe they are still 'flanked' however, so you will still receive sneak attacks?
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Sockss
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Re: Brief Detect Guide

Post by Sockss » Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:24 pm

Cataclysm of Iron wrote:What about middling investment (20-25 ranks, no skill focus), mélee character, but with uncanny dodge?
With middling ranks you could detect someone with middling-low sneak.

Uncanny dodge will prevent you from losing your dex bonus if you're caught by an undetected sneaker.
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Re: Brief Detect Guide

Post by Lorkas » Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:31 pm

Sockss wrote:Updated!

I believe they are still 'flanked' however, so you will still receive sneak attacks?
That's right--you'll still receive sneak attacks on the first flurry if you detect them through listen but not spot (but only the first flurry--once they attack, they're no longer in stealth so it doesn't matter if you were using spot or listen).

This is because sneak attack applies if the target is flat-footed, flanked, or if the target doesn't see the attacker. When you detect them through listen, your character doesn't actually see them.

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Re: Brief Detect Guide

Post by azrael_athing » Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:14 pm

One Two Three Five wrote:That's some kind of bug with invis itself, I think.
I actually think it makes sense, as invisibility is actualy only covering your visual self in the illusion of not being there, things like your footsteps, your breath, or your scent wouldn't be masked by it?*

I am uncertain if listen can be used to pinpoint the location of a character affected by Sanctuary?

*Correct me if I am wrong.

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caldura firebourne
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Re: Brief Detect Guide

Post by caldura firebourne » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:42 pm

Can we double check if umber hulk from polymorph self actually gets TS? I seem to remember it not showing up as an active icon or effect on the character sheet last I checked, which was admittedly several months ago, so my memory might be a little off
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Cortex
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Re: Brief Detect Guide

Post by Cortex » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:43 pm

Umberhulk does get TS.
:)

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Re: Brief Detect Guide

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:37 am

Hey, awesome tips! Thanks.
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