Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

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Septire
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Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by Septire » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:11 am

Hi.

This is a pretty broad question. Probably divisive too, I apologize in advance; please try to keep on track.

We've seen a lot of mechanics changes lately, but roleplay has fallen by the wayside when it comes to game-world integration from a systems standpoint.

I see a lot of grinding and a lot of 5% attempts being made nowadays. The Greater Award tier was added in to try to help casual or unlucky players get a chance to play something special. We have new crafting items and a lot of new systems to help alleviate the grinding process, such as the wonderful new quest system, adventuring, slave lasso, and additions of that nature.

These systems tend to revolve around XP. In order to remain unbiased towards players, everyone is given the same opportunity to roll their characters to play something unique. But what about character development? Is the 5% roll system too heavily front-loaded on character creation, with not enough given to existing character development? After all, a character isn't set in stone at character creation, it's about how they develop.

Do you feel that interactive storytelling, and I mean getting a real and tangible narrative going with players, and especially with DMs, should have some sort of reward? I'm talking about the players who run server-wide things and are really putting themselves out there, taking upon themselves running factions of players, settlements, and who are real champions for RP. Players who you encounter and just know they are great at roleplay. I'm talking about characters like Amadeo, Arakh, Ezra, Moira, Vippin, Skeflock, Orn Gixi (sorry for singling you guys out, but you're perfect examples) and many, many others, some of whom have been on level 30 for years and years just for the purpose of facilitating RP. Are you satisfied with saying, "RP is its own reward", and expecting them to -delete_character if they want to see anything unique? To me, it isn't the right message to send; I expect a more graceful policy. To just say "too bad, no favoritism" towards giving these players anything at all out of fear of favoritism makes me very sad, because they try so hard.

I see a deficiency in the current system for tangibly rewarding RP, coming from the DMs and also the current systems. I'm not talking about dishing out XP or items easily accessed in games by other means. I'm talking about character-developing unique items or other things which lend credence to RPing as a means of character advancement. I mean Jjjerm-era questing where you do X and get Y, where Y may or may not be normally unattainable except by doing X (see: Killing the Beast in Andunor for a reward, but instead of character-sheet mechanics it is through creative roleplay and getting others involved). I'm talking about coordinating with the DMs, telling them what your character is all about, and then collaboratively using the tools provided in NWN to best facilitate whatever your character's story is suppose to be about, and addressing emergent changes that happen by means of a DM quest or other shifts in your story. It's a more PnP-esque approach, for sure.

Do these sorts of players deserve something more? Or are the systems we have now sufficient for a roleplay-driven server? Could we do better?

My stance is evident in this post. Favoritism is always a concern, but I have faith that our DMs can take measured steps and make good judgment calls. Systems which directly reward roleplay have worked on other servers (Amia's Dream Coin system - Players might get a token from a DM for performing instances of good RP. These tokens can then be cashed in later for races, items, whatever else at the discretion of the DMs). Could Arelith benefit from systems similar to this?

I'm not proposing an exact system here, though suggestions would be welcome! I'm interested in seeing if I'm the only one who feels this way. When I see huge amounts of grinding for people desperately trying to roll for 5% just to be different (and using it as a vehicle to tell a story and keep people interested), I have to wonder if that's really the right sort of setup for a roleplay-first server. The system would be better if those sorts of rewards came to those demonstrating good roleplay and good gamesmanship (being polite, showing creativity, initiative, and consideration. The types of players you would absolutely want to have these sorts of things!) Not to players who have a streak of bans and are grinding secret alts to get 5% while they wait out their bans on their mains. I'm using some extreme examples here, I know, but I'm trying to convey a point.

Just to argue the other side: We already gutted the RPR system's gating of content because RPR can be prone to favoritism. People can get missed in the mix, especially if they are on time-zones where a DM isn't present. Any sort of system which directly rewards RP is going to necessitate DM discretion in some way, but if we really want to reward players for putting in the time and effort making a story, it's going to be the nature of the beast. For out-of-timezone players the best option might be getting a DM in that timezone or communicating with the team over the forum.

The sentiment I've gotten speaking to players and DMs alike is that they really want to see more for roleplay, but they don't know what the best way would be to go about it. My objective here is to gauge the playerbase's feelings on DMs making judgment calls about rewarding players based on their RP and merit, and decide if a step forward should be argued for.

So what do you think? Is the MMORPG model good enough for RP? Is there room to improve here? Is favoritism so paramount as to necessitate the current 5% roll model to the exclusion of organic DM-player rewards as are often seen in PnP?

Your thoughts.

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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by Nitro » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:29 am

I think that as long as any system is based on a small group of individuals (the DM's) assigning rewards to a large group of individuals (the players), there will be a lot of people that feel bitter because they feel left out. They see other people, perhaps their friends, perhaps people they can't stand, getting all these fancy shiny things while they sit there with nothing. Isn't their RP good enough they might wonder, what are they doing wrong? Is it the DM's who show favoritism, don't they log on in their timezone, does some of them have some personal gripe with them?

And so on. A whole host of questions that they never really get any answers to. With the disparity between the vast amount of players on Arelith, and the small amount of DM's there's bound to be a fair few who legitimately deserve these kinds of rewards slipping through the cracks. But even the large majority who don't deserve these rewards might well think they do, thus breeding resentment and suspicions of favoritism among some of the playerbase.

Another matter to consider again, is the difference in numbers.
For out-of-timezone players the best option might be getting a DM in that timezone or communicating with the team over the forum.
For situations like these, it's not hard to imagine DM's getting swamped by dozens, if not hundreds of requests for individual character quests, storylines, events or what have you, then how are they prioritized? Will some just be told flat "no"? Will they be left for weeks or months to sort them in order? Will some take priority over others? and so on.

All that said, I do think something unique and special being awarded now and then would be very cool, but I also think it'd be best if it was very, very rare. Like say something that only happens once, maybe twice each RL year, that way at least everyone knows how rare it is, sort of like winning the lottery, but there's still that small chance that one day, you might yourself be part of something greater than all the automatic systems allow for.

EDIT, TLDR: 5% system is great, love it, keep it. But something else of equal or greater rarity could be neat too.

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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by Dovesong » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:35 am

I will generally always disagree with anything that requires a human input (ie DM opinion) to get something out. I don't really like the RPB system and am more one who would rather see a flat amount doled out.

This is no different. I agree with the worries of DM swamping, and I /know/ there are cases of amazing people that for various and sundry reasons the DMs just don't see. That wouldn't change with even more mechanical backing of "your RP is good".

All in all, I don't think there should be any more mechanical plusses to having DM note than there already are. It will only increase the resentment and hurt feelings from those who for any of many, many reasons don't/can't get it.
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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by Conversations With Your Car Alarm » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:39 am

I'm not so concerned with favoritism. I am concerned with getting away from player driven narrative in favor of DM driven narrative. At the same time, I have been on the tip of feeling that Arelith is too mechanically oriented the last couple years. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I'm really happy this was brought up. I don't even know if that concern should factor into this conversation. But, it's where my mind immediately goes.

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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by Xerah » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:45 am

I'll echo most of these same feelings with the roll reward after doing it for the first time just this week. It felt super unfortunate to get a normal reward from what I'd consider a hyper involved character in server activities when you've heard countless stories about people and their GoH characters getting to 26 in 4 days and rolling for a better reward.

That said, I had fun with my character and I'll have fun with other characters and -2ECL is a fine reward for me.

I don't know what the solution is, just sharing feelings at the moment.
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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by Septire » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:46 am

Thanks for the reply. I agree that there's a whole host of problems. It's true that players will be jealous. Even in our current model, seeing grinders rolling fodder characters and ending up with a dragon PC, admittedly, made me jealous. Not because they had more time than me or knew more about grinding than me, but because of the concessions they were allowed to make to their RP in such a system only to be fundamentally rewarded in the end. It didn't feel like a justifiable outcome for a roleplay-first server setting. In a very similar way, undue favorable treatment (at least as far as an individual player is concerned about "undue" rewards) leads to people labeling others and passing judgment on the means of how it was attained.

I think in either scenario, it's unavoidable. Either you blame the DMs for being unfair or uneven, or players for gamifying a chance-based system with fodder characters that added virtually nothing to the server outside of facilitating a 5% roll. A lack of trust in people and believing one's own judgment to be final are pretty serious problems in their own right. I doubt anyone would argue that people could be nicer in general.

The logistics to this problem are hard, but I feel like if we want to shift the focus towards RP and away from chance-based systems when it comes to rewards, it becomes necessary to try to tackle these issues in a graceful way.

My feelings are that if the DM team are doing their best to try to reach as many people as they can, you can't really fault them for trying to reach out and make things better. Some players won't see it that way, instead focusing on their own RP and their own rewards, and why other people they don't like are getting rewarded and they are not. It's not a perspective I share though. I would rather see something being done than nothing at all. Nothing offers no variance or wonder, no hope towards any benefits such a system may entail. It assures -delete_character as the fairest measure of play when it comes to rewards. To me, it's just not enough.

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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by Nitro » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:56 am

I do feel like RP should be the end goal, not the justification for a reward. If we end up in a scenario where people go out to RP just so they have a chance to get a reward we've not only taken a step backwards, but two steps in the wrong direction. Any system introduced should revolve around facilitating RP and creating more fun stories, not being the end goal of RP and stories.

Right now Arelith is in a pretty good space for this, RPB is almost entirely mechanics free as a little extra XP boon, barring access to palemasters and, strangely, pixies. (how are these not a reward race like imps yet?) All the other methods of rewards aren't tied to RP, rather epic sacrificing is something anyone can do at the requisite level without any additional requirements.

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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by Emotionaloverload » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:58 am

First off *Extra big hug for Septire!* <3!

I wouldn't have an issue with a persistently good (read: stays out of trouble and makes inclusive rp) player filing a request for something unique even if they didn't roll a 5%. However I imagine this would put some strain on DMs that I'm not sure would be appreciated as it might take time away from plots.

Most DM plots that I have seen or been a part of in recent years expect more and more player initiative which I love. While I get a 5% is nice, I prefer the system where player initiative is rewarded with a unique story plots or a chance for a character to be the hero or villain. The same issue of timezones comes up for this as it does all reward suggestions but that's to be expected.


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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by Septire » Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:08 am

I agree with the part about RPing being the end, not the means. Consider: If players are RPing for the sake of rewards, they are RPing. If players are gamifying a chance-based systems for rewards, they are not RPing nearly as much by comparison (especially if their character's lifespan is only 4 - 28 days in length). I would rather the former. Even if their intention is solely based on rewards, they still have to convince people, and there's a chance they might come to enjoy what they're doing and forget about the reward in the process. DMs have their own discretion, human intelligence. Scripted systems are based on sets of rules which can't infer context anywhere near what a person can, at least when it comes to creative avenues like roleplay. DMs and players involved in the roleplay are the best measure of what should be done in such a scenario.

There is a peace of mind offered by the chance of having one's active RP rewarded in a way that -delete_character doesn't share. And changing the way the 5% roll system currently works in favor of RP will cut down on the rat-race mentality for awards. It gives DMs and players (because DMs are also players) far greater control over conditioning RP over mindless grinding.

As with any tool, there's always room for abuse.
Last edited by Septire on Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:12 am

This is probably an unpopular opinion, but a higher RPR used to be something to strive for. It used to put pressure on people always, because there was a constant threat of being demoted down from a 30. There was constant pressure to strive for excellence in the OFF CHANCE a DM was watching.

I'll disagree with Nitro, and others who believe that moving back towards a heavier emphasis on RPR as a step back, or a bad thing. To be frank, I don't see many other methods for instilling a greater desire to become the best storyteller you can possibly be.

Back in the day, planetouched were locked behind a RPR 30. Everyone wanted to play a tiefling or a genasi. Not only were they badass, they were special. It was also a designation within the community as someone who has "earned their stripes." It was not always the case, but there was a degree of respect towards people with 30s, and there was a degree of expectation too - you really expected them to be great roleplayers.

Having a 40 was like being a god.

People really tried to focus and "work hard" at their roleplay in order to achieve a 30, because of all the trappings that came with it. Nowadays, you might say that's a little "reward orientated" but I honestly believe people become better roleplayers because of it.

Nowadays, there is absolutely no incentive whatsoever to be a better roleplayer.

You know what's more subjective than a DM Team? A kudos thread. 1000x more. At least DMs are anonymous.

If a RPR is not given weight, it's very difficult to see how roleplaying is given weight. If rolling characters for rewards takes precedence over becoming the best roleplayer one can be, than why bother getting better at roleplaying?

Roleplaying is not going to let you create a special snowflake character, ironically. Grinding and chance is. I find that wholly ironic, and probably the extreme response to races being tied to RPR.

If I started out in Arelith in the contemporary system, I bet my experience would be entirely different. I wouldn't be gunning to be a better roleplayer. I'd be gunning to achieve Greater Awards and mass recognition.
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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by cptcuddlepants » Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:25 am

I love your idea, but I feel like there's far too much pressure on players to roll characters, even for reasons beyond getting a 5%, to make it feasible. I rarely see characters stick around for more than a couple of months, which makes it difficult to get any long-term narrative or development in.

I've noticed that Arelith seems to lean more towards short, explosive storylines where characters show up, play their story out, and then they roll. It's an extremely jarring change for someone who came from a community where storylines are long and slow-paced with a good deal of focus placed on what happens to characters after a story arc wraps up. To this day I still have no idea how to handle how short character lifespans are compared to what I'm used to.
Seven Sons of Sin wrote:If rolling characters for rewards takes precedence over becoming the best roleplayer one can be, than why bother getting better at roleplaying?
This is a really good question. "Just roll already!" seems to be the first bit of advice given in... any situation, really. Your character failed at a task? Just roll. Your character made a bad decision? Just roll. Hit a rut, not sure where to go? Just roll. Get an award, try again with something new. I'm not sure if bonuses for the journey, instead of the destination, would help with it.
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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by Hunter548 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:34 am

I think the biggest problem I have with this suggestion is one of staleness.

For example: Arakh was great. Arakh did a lot of fun stuff. Arakh really didn't need to stick around for three-four-five-six RL years. I'm not saying that, for example, people should be rolling their characters every two months or whatever. But I am saying that giving incentive for people to stick around because they've got lots of cool toys on that character is the wrong way to go, in my mind. Freshness drives new conflicts and new stories -- And, more importantly, new characters lets other players play with the same proverbial toys. That's also without even getting into the sort of exponential growth characters can have, of solving Big Problems, thus getting a reputation as Someone Who Solves Big Problems, and thus ends up with more Big Problems to solve.


Now, you wanna talk about some way to help encourage quality, and to discourage people powergrinding 5%? Hell yeah, I'm game for that. But I don't think basing it on how much the guy you're playing when you get your reward has done, is the way to do it (If that makes sense).
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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by Sab1 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:36 am

I think that's the main issue right now is getting in rp with people only to have toon after toon get rolled once they get to a lvl with a chance for the best rewards. I am all for rolling a toon before they get stale. it just makes one feel like you wasted time when you are rping with three others and that pack suddenly are like going back to the mainland and roll their toons at the same time.

I always hated the rpr sytem, if anything was ripe for people to scream favoritism it is that. Also if you played at times with very little dm coverage, good luck getting noticed.
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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by Septire » Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:44 am

Staleness is definitely a concern I share, and why the 5% reward scheme was changed originally by adding Greaters. People might be coaxed into rolling if the odds are not so grim, and we can afford things like planetouched on low %, which don't necessitate 5% power. We also added the 1 million gp thing to try to encourage wealthy characters who stuck around longer to roll as well.

Staleness is also a problem prevalent with 5% characters as well: Who wants to roll their vampire, tiefling, dragon, oldschool dragonshaper, or even 32 SR characters? Once you have them, they're pretty much there to stay.

My concern is with how just roleplaying your character goes rewarded (or doesn't). Rolling keeps things fresh, but knowing the nature of what you can and cannot get when you're playing the game, and knowing the finality of -delete_character, is also a form of staleness; you already know that the DMs cannot do all that much, so the development of your character is defined largely by attainable gear and whatever build you've formulated. Experimenting with "what if" scenarios are no longer all that necessary because anything unique or special is gated behind -delete_character, which does not take into account the RP that you did on that character.

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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by Cortex » Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:53 am

Septire wrote:Staleness is also a problem prevalent with 5% characters as well: Who wants to roll their vampire, tiefling, dragon, oldschool dragonshaper, or even 32 SR characters?
a lot of them
:)

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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by Hunter548 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:55 am

Yeah, I've seen quite a few of those characters get rolled to be 100% honest. I dunno if we could say the same if those characters kept accruing new bonuses for sticking around longer.
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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by Griefmaker » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:16 am

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:This is probably an unpopular opinion, but a higher RPR used to be something to strive for. It used to put pressure on people always, because there was a constant threat of being demoted down from a 30. There was constant pressure to strive for excellence in the OFF CHANCE a DM was watching.

I'll disagree with Nitro, and others who believe that moving back towards a heavier emphasis on RPR as a step back, or a bad thing. To be frank, I don't see many other methods for instilling a greater desire to become the best storyteller you can possibly be.

Back in the day, planetouched were locked behind a RPR 30. Everyone wanted to play a tiefling or a genasi. Not only were they badass, they were special. It was also a designation within the community as someone who has "earned their stripes." It was not always the case, but there was a degree of respect towards people with 30s, and there was a degree of expectation too - you really expected them to be great roleplayers.

Having a 40 was like being a god.

People really tried to focus and "work hard" at their roleplay in order to achieve a 30, because of all the trappings that came with it. Nowadays, you might say that's a little "reward orientated" but I honestly believe people become better roleplayers because of it.

Nowadays, there is absolutely no incentive whatsoever to be a better roleplayer.

You know what's more subjective than a DM Team? A kudos thread. 1000x more. At least DMs are anonymous.

If a RPR is not given weight, it's very difficult to see how roleplaying is given weight. If rolling characters for rewards takes precedence over becoming the best roleplayer one can be, than why bother getting better at roleplaying?

Roleplaying is not going to let you create a special snowflake character, ironically. Grinding and chance is. I find that wholly ironic, and probably the extreme response to races being tied to RPR.

If I started out in Arelith in the contemporary system, I bet my experience would be entirely different. I wouldn't be gunning to be a better roleplayer. I'd be gunning to achieve Greater Awards and mass recognition.
This definitely is the unpopular opinion, but I agree with you on it. I would like to see good RP being what one strives for again. I think that the trusting the playerbase to want to strive for it is not going to work in general because of human nature. Especially when they can ignore it and still get their cake and eat it too.

There will always be the argument that it is subjectively judged and that DMs are not always present and so forth, but unfortunately that is just the way life goes.

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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by RedGiant » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:24 am

As many have noted, there are pros and cons to both the reward and the rpr system. Currently, though, we do have both in the module. If there is a valid complaint here, I think its that very few options are locked behind a required rpr anymore, so maybe this is something to explore.

I gravely hesitate to undermine the reward system however. Having played almost exclusively the UD for the first 6-8 years I've been here, I've seen long periods of benign neglect related to this setting. This merely testifies to the fact that DM attention is like the eye of Sauron: powerful, but often uni-directional. We need an automated option for the off-time zones and the dusty corners of the server where fine RP may indeed take place.

So, in short, I am against scrapping the automated system or otherwise pitting two complementary systems against each other.

That being said, I would support some additional cookies being tied to the RPR system.

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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by One Two Three Five » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:42 am

On the 'mechanics over roleplay etc etc' part of your post:

The adventure system and new classes is one of the only things, no offense to the devs, that I see as this server giving a nod towards what most D&D is about, and not the sort of Kingmaker/Game Of Thrones/Resource Management stuff that the settlement/faction system entails- which is entirely, 100%, having done it before, mind-numbingly boring to me as opposed to adventures or character-based roleplay.

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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by Iceborn » Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:54 am

Amia, while a server that I remember fondly, was full of flaws. And the Dream Coin system was not without them. It may have worked for me, but I know that executing it was something that required luck, since a DM would have to see your roleplay and like it enough to give you a coin, and time, since then you'd have to write a concise and orderly thread in the Request forum to explain what is that you want, and what has your character done to deserve it. To which you'd have to use a number of dream coins based on a few different factors. Then the DMs would weigh in yay or nay depending what they've seen and if the evidence you had to support your claim was seemingly enough.


Back to Arelith now.

There's a lot of players that may play, grind to 26 and roll, in constant search for that elusive 5% and finally play that one snowflake that they want to play. I cannot say that I particularly know of anybody that does this, but there are a lot of characters that mysteriously disappear in high levels.

There's all kinds of people that benefit the server. Some of them may stick to their characters and become living legends - some people know how to keep their characters fresh and they add something to the game. Some get stale. There's a lot of prestige in what you have there; the reputation you build with your character, the stories that you touch even by just existing.
Not to mention, you are perpetually at the height of your power. It doesn't diminish (unless a surprise nerf hits).

But rolling is also a good incentive to not get stuck in the same character. To try something new and different. To keep things fresh in other ways. It's always served for that, and it's great that it's there. When I was new to the server I thought this a terrible idea, because it didn't allow you to further develop a character in ways that would seem outside the already-established mechanics. You would have to roll, and start from 0 again with your award - and hope it was a good award that you could do something interesting with.
Now, I don't know anymore.


EDIT:
If anything, there are two sentiments that I would echo here:
The 5% is fine. Leave as it is.
But a high RPR is something that we should strive for as well.
I think that back in the days I had an idea for a system that would grant 'tokens' every tick based on your RPR, and you could use those tokens to buy different things to alter your character, or other things...
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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by Septire » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:07 am

Cortex wrote:a lot of them
Hunter548 wrote:Yeah, I've seen quite a few of those characters get rolled to be 100% honest. I dunno if we could say the same if those characters kept accruing new bonuses for sticking around longer.
This is actually a refreshing and unexpected turn. When I originally read this, I was confused why someone with a 5% would want to roll. I also read Hunter's post and saw the problem with drip-feeding characters bonuses, which would cause them to stick around longer, possibly even indefinitely.

Two things came to mind. The first is why a 5% character would ever want to roll. After all, they have a 5% roll, what more could they want out of the 5% system than something they already have? Then I realized it's probably because they just got bored playing the character and wanted to play something else, and rolled it out at another chance at a 5%. If they didn't get it, oh well.

This is a good thing, because I was really concerned about stagnation, and there are "a lot" of cases where players just get bored and either shelf or roll, even with the most unique stuff the server offers. This helps to assuage the concern of stagnation: in a RP-reward structure, the concern is that players with these things won't roll, but we purportedly have "a lot" of instances where the contrary is true and players with these things roll regardless.

The second thing that came to mind was more on Hunter's post: If you constantly drip-feed rewards to existing characters, why on earth would they ever want to roll if they're constantly getting new things? Well, it in part relates back to the first point: I don't know the exact reason, but they do. Certainly even dragons have been shelved and rolled even with artifacts being a thing. If they can roll a 5% unique character, they can probably roll a bunch of RP-related rewards as well, or pass them on, depending on the nature of the reward.

The other part that stumped me for a while was how to design a system to stop a situation where a single character is being indefinitely rewarded and sustained. Then I stopped thinking in terms of scripted systems, which need to have catches for situations such as this, because it's not a scripted system at all. It's the DMs. Even machine learning algorithms take time to train on what is good play and what isn't, and if you have many DMs weighing in to make informed decisions, that's very powerful stuff. Consider how long we've had some of our DMs and all they have seen. Far more powerful than the programming that is typically done for a module. The dilemma of constantly drip-feeding a player has a few safeguards: the first is that it is up to DM discretion whether or not they constantly give the same player new things (they won't if they are careful about their process, which I believe they would be). Like players, the DMs have a good sense when things are starting to stagnate. The other part is that they're discerning on the type of player they reward. The player that receives these sorts of things are going to be roleplay-first players. The chances of them sticking around forever as the same character, being demanding of the DM team and unreasonable about retiring is unlikely just by the nature of the selection process. This assumes that the player selected isn't going to be a boor about roleplaying. Then, if the player becomes that way (or if the DMs made a mistake), we fall back onto the first point: the DMs are discerning. They can cut-off players who become belligerent and uncooperative about telling a greater narrative and making it totally about themselves. It's a merit system, so players can gain and lose it based on their behavior.

The third point also relates back to stagnation: If a player knows that they have a chance at getting an RP-reward irrespective of the character they play, why would they play bad odds on a character who already has 2-3 RP rewards compared to rolling up a new character, starting something fresh, committing to new RP and having a better chance at being noticed for something new? The more rewards a character has, the less likely it becomes that DMs will decide to keep piling rewards on the same character. That's really up to the DMs, but I trust the team to make wise decisions.

Also something I considered: Do I really care if I see old characters? Like really, if I see Amadeo I don't go, "Oh it's that guy, he's been around since what, Vippin? Urblexis Grond or something? How stale, he should really just make a new character." Not at all! Whenever I RP with him the RP always seems to be fresh, current and interesting. Despite the character being old, the roleplayer behind the character manages to keep the character fresh. Why would I concern myself when I think they should roll, if everyone around him is having fun and his continued existence is still plausible?

Never mind that other creatures, like elves, can live like 700 years!

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WanderingPoet
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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by WanderingPoet » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:27 am

Griefmaker wrote: This definitely is the unpopular opinion, but I agree with you on it. I would like to see good RP being what one strives for again. I think that the trusting the playerbase to want to strive for it is not going to work in general because of human nature. Especially when they can ignore it and still get their cake and eat it too.

There will always be the argument that it is subjectively judged and that DMs are not always present and so forth, but unfortunately that is just the way life goes.
I also agree with this opinion! This server is great, there are a /lot/ of excellent RPers out there. But there is very little reason to need to strive to be a better RPer, there are few resources to help people become better RPers. Of course RPR can feel like favourtism when you're stuck at 20 but feel you're an excellent RPer, when you've striven for it for a long time but your RP style doesn't led to being noticed compared to people running factions or settlements. It would be great if there were ways to help players improve their roleplay and incentives for doing so besides "Maybe if you RP well you'll get an RPR boost". It is good to strive for longer term RP, while it is also good to cut the RP off when it becomes stale. I feel the balance lies more on the short-term lives than the longer term developed stories, currently.

Like cptcuddlepants, I come from a server where characters stick around a while. Many of them did get stale, having a way to get rewarded for them would've been nice. But in 14 months of playing Yeto I have met around 650 unique characters, most of which have been rolled. To me this seems extraordinary, strange that so many people come and go with some speed and find myself gravitating towards those willing to keep their characters around a little longer. I've seen the rise and fall of four governments in Myon, some which lasted a mere handful of months before most of the related characters were rolled. There was story, it was fun, it left the mark on Yeto but what remains afterwards?

It would be nice if there was some sort of reward for playing characters and not just grinding. Like a boost to the 5% of something for every 10 days you logged into a character, or for every year they're around. Of course, all such time based systems are easily rigged by logging on daily, keeping characters in a vault, etc. It is a shame that there is more incentive to roll characters once they hit 26 and earn a million gold (both which are more easily obtained by grinding than by RPing), than for actually rping.

TLDR: So an incentive to become a better RPer, resources to help players improve, and incentives to stick around a bit rather than 26-and-roll would be nice additions to the server.
Path_of_Play wrote:Fear, intimidation, anger - All these, the tyrant's tools.
Laughter, encouragement, play - not simply just for fools.
These tools reveal,
More is learned,
From another in an hour of play,
Than in a year of contention.

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Scurvy Cur
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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by Scurvy Cur » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:30 am

People absolutely do not need further stacking incentives to keep characters around longer.

I'm not really comfortable with DMs rewarding for "merit" either. This is entirely subjective, and no server I've ever been on that's permitted DMs to give subjective awards to players for "meritorious RP" has long survived the decision of doing so. Arelith already exists at the upper end of what we can safely give out as discretionary awards: the RPR system basically ensures that some players are given a slightly quicker route to 30 as a thank you for their RP. This is fine, because while RPR is nice, it doesn't give players access to any game features which are unavailable to anyone else. The moment that discretionary awards can do this, we'll have gone too far and the results may be disastrous. The reasons for this are numerous.

First, what good RP is a subjective thing to begin with. Nobody is going to have the same interpretation of who the server's best RPers are, nor who the worst are, nor who the most enjoyable are. A DM squad will be no better than the playerbase at large. Implementing any such system would not encourage "good RP" so much as it would reward people who happen to be playing characters that the current DMs like. The resulting behavior change, if it occurs, would likewise not be people "improving" their RP so much as it would be people changing their RP to make it more pleasing to the DMs. This is the wrong goal for an RP server.

Second, visibility is an issue. It's natural that some characters will spotlight a lot harder than others. This doesn't mean their RP is better, just that it's more visible. Visibility for its own sake does not make good RP, but that's what any system that allows DMs significant discretionary awards eventually ends up fostering. This isn't anyone's fault, it's just that background characters are harder to catch doing what they do

Third, a discussion of favoritism becomes completely unavoidable. Even if the DMs are completely fair and scrupulous, the accusations of unfairness, favoritism, clique boosting, and OOC corruption are inevitable. We have some of this already, mind, but it's tempered by the fact that nothing the DMs give out really surpasses what the players can achieve themselves. This would make it worse.

Fourth, the more heavily dm approval and attention are rewarded, the greater the harm will be to player agency. If DMs become a pathway to any rewards that exceed what a character can get themselves, then getting the DM's attention and giving the DM the kind of RP that they want will draw more of the playerbase's energy and time. This would detract from the time and energy that are committed to player-driven plots and RP. Player driven RP will always be more organic and superior to that driven by DMs, and Arelith should strive to preserve it whenever possible. It's what makes the server special, and we shouldn't undermine it.


Chucky1234
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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by Chucky1234 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:31 am

Perhaps a system where you register your interest for specific rp based changes that would normally require a roll and then your character is flagged.

If a DM observes you conducting suitable rp in line with the request then they can give you a tick or a cross based on their observations.

One cross from any DM would immediately reject your request. A certain number (let's say 5) of ticks would grant you the reward and then you can work with the DMs to fit the reward to your character.

Conversations With Your Car Alarm
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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by Conversations With Your Car Alarm » Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:34 am

Scurvy Cur wrote:Fourth, the more heavily dm approval and attention are rewarded, the greater the harm will be to player agency. If DMs become a pathway to any rewards that exceed what a character can get themselves, then getting the DM's attention and giving the DM the kind of RP that they want will draw more of the playerbase's energy and time. This would detract from the time and energy that are committed to player-driven plots and RP. Player driven RP will always be more organic and superior to that driven by DMs, and Arelith should strive to preserve it whenever possible. It's what makes the server special, and we shouldn't undermine it.
This is what I worry about the most.

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