Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by BegoneThoth » Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:40 pm

I don't feel that way at all, and think a simple 0/10/20 billed as "unacceptable / needs improvement / meets or exceeds standards" would accomplish the same goal of nudging people into behaving right.
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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by DarkDreamer » Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:47 pm

Honestly, I think the RPB is broken period, it does give off the stench of favoritism even if DMs don't agree, while at the same time encouraging players to compete for their already very limited attention to get the higher bonus. It is not hard to tell at times places DM's try to avoid or don't like, and its easy sometimes to tell whom the DM's tend to favor over others. So yes it is a broken system and MANY people get left behind.

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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by BegoneThoth » Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:57 pm

Indeed. The 0/10/20 system essentially solves this as you need to be noticed a single time, and further eliminates the idea of what "correct" role play is by not locking rewards and shorter grind times behind mysterious and arbitrary standards.
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Sab1
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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by Sab1 » Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:57 pm

I find spamming the Dm channel every 5 minutes describing everything I have done in the past 5 minutes is the best method.

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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by Queen Titania » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:08 pm

For the record, when we've done RPB votes (Which we do for 30/40), we rarely disagree
, and usually allow full team input even though the votes needed are much less.

Have someone you think is a great RP? We love those sort of reports. We don't get them very often.

Go have fun, be inclusive, be a good sport, make memorable characters, and have patience.
Sab1 wrote:I find spamming the Dm channel every 5 minutes describing everything I have done in the past 5 minutes is the best method.
Someone's character may suddenly die of mysterious causes. :P
Last edited by Queen Titania on Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by Tourmaline » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:10 pm

DMs are players who have shown they can handle some extra responsibility. I respect the job they do but I don’t consider them any more infallible than the rest of us. They have personal opinions I may not agree with— including what constitutes good RP— and I don’t want to give them any more control over my experience as a player than is necessary. I like the DM to be a referee and an actual PnP style DM running optional events. That’s enough (and that is a lot.)

It’s the nature of this game, however, to make us feel like we’re in a bit of a surveillance state where an unseen all-powerful eye could be watching any time and dole out favors and punishments. It’s why I think the RPR system is a bit unhealthy, since people just want that rating for the approval and that becomes what this game is about. It’s also why I think people put too much importance on the DM and getting their attention and favor. I’m not saying get rid of it but I don’t like getting that sweet 30 or 40 to be the end game here. Which is what it used to be ten years ago, and I like that it’s currently not such a big deal. It shouldn’t be a gateway for anything other than a few extra bonus XP as far as I am concerned.

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flower
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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by flower » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:14 pm

DarkDreamer wrote:Honestly, I think the RPB is broken period, it does give off the stench of favoritism even if DMs don't agree, while at the same time encouraging players to compete for their already very limited attention to get the higher bonus. It is not hard to tell at times places DM's try to avoid or don't like, and its easy sometimes to tell whom the DM's tend to favor over others. So yes it is a broken system and MANY people get left behind.

Did you get any proof for that? Or does it come from your hurt feeling you deserve better RPR?

The best solution would be to stop discussing with anyone who has what RPR, ignore it, and just focus on play. Same discussing what character / player has done IG in any OOC means. First step for this is to turn off tells. Second to quit discord channels.

You will not to think of these things then, and see and play in much different dimension.

I got that tested on myself :roll:

Edit: Just your friends you play with will hate you a lot for no tells on :lol: :lol:

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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by PinataPlethora » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:17 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:Indeed. The 0/10/20 system essentially solves this as you need to be noticed a single time, and further eliminates the idea of what "correct" role play is by not locking rewards and shorter grind times behind mysterious and arbitrary standards.
It sounds like you're advocating a system that rewards a broken clock for being right twice a day, and implies that the highest aspiration of any RPer should be to meet the average.

The idea of "correct" roleplay comes not from the staff, but from players who aren't satisfied with their bonus. Those upper bonuses aren't for players who are necessarily "better" or more "correct" in their RP, but rather for those who are making sacrifices and putting their time and effort toward creating enjoyable RP for others. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to do that, and it doesn't make your RP less valuable. If you don't have time for it, or you're more focused on creating fun for yourself, that's perfectly fine. You'll still get a good bonus just for staying in character.

The biggest problem with the RPR system right now is players pushing the perception that anything less than a 40 makes you inferior.

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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by DarkDreamer » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:25 pm

flower wrote:
DarkDreamer wrote:Honestly, I think the RPB is broken period, it does give off the stench of favoritism even if DMs don't agree, while at the same time encouraging players to compete for their already very limited attention to get the higher bonus. It is not hard to tell at times places DM's try to avoid or don't like, and its easy sometimes to tell whom the DM's tend to favor over others. So yes it is a broken system and MANY people get left behind.

Did you get any proof for that? Or does it come from your hurt feeling you deserve better RPR?

The best solution would be to stop discussing with anyone who has what RPR, ignore it, and just focus on play. Same discussing what character / player has done IG in any OOC means. First step for this is to turn off tells. Second to quit discord channels.

You will not to think of these things then, and see and play in much different dimension.

I got that tested on myself :roll:

Edit: Just your friends you play with will hate you a lot for no tells on :lol: :lol:

What my opinion comes from is not hurt feelings, I don't need to hide from reality and ooc tells to feel better about myself. What I have seen and witnessed myself is up to me whether or not I disclose but just as much as you can open your mouth and give your opinion on what I should or shouldn't do, I can open mine and give my opinion that the RPB system is entirely broken.

"DMs are players who have shown they can handle some extra responsibility. I respect the job they do but I don’t consider them any more infallible than the rest of us. They have personal opinions I may not agree with— including what constitutes good RP— and I don’t want to give them any more control over my experience as a player than is necessary. I like the DM to be a referee and an actual PnP style DM running optional events. That’s enough (and that is a lot.)"

I love this quote, because its true, as players, they have built a bias of what they do and don't like, so if that player HATES the Arcane Tower with a passion, they are gonna avoid it, the rp of it and have a bias against anything the tower does. Asking a person to be unbiased to "Hey your a great RPer" is like handing a toddler 3 suckers for him and 6 of his friends, who gets left out? Its the same thing, its broken, same as they Fey being stuck being the RPB is broken because clearly the regular player base isnt mature enough to play Fey "properly" but devils, demons, Assimar and Tieflings are fine. Thats just dumb.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by BegoneThoth » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:35 pm

PinataPlethora wrote:
BegoneThoth wrote:Indeed. The 0/10/20 system essentially solves this as you need to be noticed a single time, and further eliminates the idea of what "correct" role play is by not locking rewards and shorter grind times behind mysterious and arbitrary standards.
It sounds like you're advocating a system that rewards a broken clock for being right twice a day, and implies that the highest aspiration of any RPer should be to meet the average.

The idea of "correct" roleplay comes not from the staff, but from players who aren't satisfied with their bonus. Those upper bonuses aren't for players who are necessarily "better" or more "correct" in their RP, but rather for those who are making sacrifices and putting their time and effort toward creating enjoyable RP for others. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to do that, and it doesn't make your RP less valuable. If you don't have time for it, or you're more focused on creating fun for yourself, that's perfectly fine. You'll still get a good bonus just for staying in character.

The biggest problem with the RPR system right now is players pushing the perception that anything less than a 40 makes you inferior.
If you have <40 rpr you are inferior. You need to spend more time grinding then a 40 rpr person does, as they have less ecl and more xp, which paradoxically is the reason you may be stuck at lower rpr levels. The amount of bonus xp you get is far from negligible, moreso now with easy access to adventure rp.

The system encourages the behavior its made to prevent by creating disparity and encouraging those with lower ratings to either dungeon grind to catch up or just be content being behind.
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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by flower » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:36 pm

I do not hide from reality. I hide from player made rants, assumptions, made up accusations. Noone who passes a thing via tell or discord is objective on the topic. I reccomended to get rid of these things because obviously they make you stressed, angered and upset. It is of course fully up to you, if you wish to keep bothering yourself with this crap, fully in belief you are so damned right, or abandon it.

Your call, not mine :)

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flower
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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by flower » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:38 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:...

Think less of levels. Less of grinding. What is wrong with people in those days demanding equality in totally all things? Do you play to be equal to others, or do you play for fun? What do you play for? How someone with RPR 40 ruins your fun that much?

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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by The GrumpyCat » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:44 pm

Yes DD, but this is why:

a) raising an rpr to 30/40 requires multiple DMs
b) There is a 'head' DM to modify us
c) We are all in turn overseen by the Admin group and Irongron
d) There are DM Interviews, to weed out that sort of extreme prejudice on the get go
e) we have quite a largish team, so we can hopefully cover a lot of tastes, styles, and playtimes.

The rpr system works, and it works pretty well. In the days before Dms ran many quests, when the entire server was almost utterly player driven, I firmly believe that encouraging the really great rpers to shiine through 30/40 rprs was what kept the server going.

And as people have pointed out - the 30/40 rprs don't do much, except maybe give you slightly higher leveling when you arn't out grinding. Which is good.
The sort of rp that comes from a 30/40 isn't always fun for everyone, and that's fine. But it is a style that helps those around you have fun, and also helps us as DMs run the server. It's something to be encouraged.

But I think we're getting off the topic, which whilst it does mention RPRs, doesn't revolve around them.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by BegoneThoth » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:45 pm

flower wrote:
BegoneThoth wrote:...

Think less of levels. Less of grinding. What is wrong with people in those days demanding equality in totally all things? Do you play to be equal to others, or do you play for fun? What do you play for? How someone with RPR 40 ruins your fun that much?
When a system encourages the exact thing it's made to prevent, it's time to re do the system.

If you run grind so much you go down to 10 rpr, you do nothing but add a few more hours to the run grind for that character, as opposed to finding a way to make a power grinder grind less.

This is why rpr does the opposite of what it should. Penalizing people with less xp for grinding too much or whatever only begets more grinding.
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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by DarkDreamer » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:53 pm

And as people have pointed out - the 30/40 rprs don't do much, except maybe give you slightly higher leveling when you aren't out grinding. Which is good.

Except with the fey thing right, cause you gotta be super special to play them. Even though its been repeatedly suggested, and commented that it being the only thing being the RPB wall is really silly, cause that again adds to the fact you need to be super special in the eyes of DM's to be allowed to play them, or roll a 5% which is in itself ridiculous. I wouldn't mind playing one, I know about 10 other people who wouldn't mind paying a normal reward to play them, but we don't meet the "special" DM quota to make them.

Also, I know for a fact its been suggested, cause I have made that suggestion repeatedly which is either continually ignored, or just they want it to be kept to the special quota. *shrugs*

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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by The GrumpyCat » Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:56 pm

The behavior that RPR 30 and 40 players habitually show (note not always, but often), tends to be less motivated towards levels, and less inclined to 'Grind' but more inclined to rp.

This means that, if left to their own devices, 30 and 40 rpr players often (but not always) to not level at the rate of other players. Because they are more concerned with making good story, and interesting worldbuilding activities, and good character interactions.

So that such behavior can be reinforced, we give a bonux to XP, so that the guy who is carefully roleplaying someone who makes fun for a lot of the server, making this an immersive, story driven, character depth world can level at a similar rate to the guy who circle grinds every time they log in.

the other way of reinforcing good roleplay would be something akin to gating off certain aspects of the game. E.g. Races, Classes, so on so forth.

This is no longer done as much, though there is arguments both for and against it. But the major argument against it more or less what DD say.

So you either have
Extra xp for good roleplayers
Exclusive perks for good roleplayers
No reward at all for good roleplayers.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by Nitro » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:00 pm

I guess we can all cross "RPR discussion" off our bingo cards with this derail.

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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:02 pm

Is there a way to offer incentive to roleplaying besides RPR and a kudos?

I think it would be neat if there could be a system on Arelith that allows for significant or quasi-significant characters to have more lasting impressions on the environment.

I.e. Sasha Silverscales was a player. Nautilus Lane in Cordor is named after Nautilus.

Previously, and I think currently, the only way to enter into the server is through the 5% system. Or, you can have character legacy from books in the Book Matrix.

What if:

- Characters who exist after a period of time enter the Cordorian "Hall of Adventurers" as just a name on a fixture
- Officially recognized faction leaders can be recognized on "Faction Genealogy" Boards that are handled by Devs.
- Characters who "make a significant impact" or are otherwise "memorable" can make application to the DEV/DM Team to add a small touch to the server that honours their character's legacy. This could be just a tombstone, or could be like a tree, or an artwork that is given that "invulnerable" status.

This is going back to the Waypoint article, and I've often wondered if there's better systems to honour character achievements in-game beyond trying to get a 5% to try to get your character turned into an NPC.

I think stuff along these lines could be nice touches. Still totally subjective. I don't know if it reinforces ideas that factions leader = most important. But some way of letting characters to semi-automatically leave something in their wake.

edit: Big example is when characters are rolled during dramatic events, like War of Wharftown, Fall of Benwick, etc. It'd just be a nice touch if there's a little plaque or something (I know there are for some), that doesn't have to fall upon player initiative all the time.
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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by DarkDreamer » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:07 pm

Lots of people do that Grumpy, hell most of my chars never reach lvl 30 even after being on the server for a YEAR in the make, mainly because they all focus on RP solely, yet except maybe 2% of the people I see, they have a RPR of 20. Also, RPR doesn't reinforce anything, this is LONG proven that stuff like that doesn't do anything except cause hurt feelings and the feeling of players shacking up with specific people to get special goodies. For as MANY times as this has been brought up, and repeatedly ignored/ignorantly justified regardless of statements otherwise/brushed off, it keeps being a thing. You might think that the fact this keeps getting brought up and not only by me 7-8x a year...might show there's clearly something wrong with the system.

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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by Cataclysm of Iron » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:08 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:
flower wrote:
BegoneThoth wrote:...

Think less of levels. Less of grinding. What is wrong with people in those days demanding equality in totally all things? Do you play to be equal to others, or do you play for fun? What do you play for? How someone with RPR 40 ruins your fun that much?
When a system encourages the exact thing it's made to prevent, it's time to re do the system.

If you run grind so much you go down to 10 rpr, you do nothing but add a few more hours to the run grind for that character, as opposed to finding a way to make a power grinder grind less.

This is why rpr does the opposite of what it should. Penalizing people with less xp for grinding too much or whatever only begets more grinding.
I think you're fundamentally missing that what most people are on Arelith to do, and what RPR as a system is designed to reward, is treating it as a collaborative storytelling exercise rather than a race to Lv30.
Xerah wrote: People have a very weird possessive nature over a lot of things in Arelith.

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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by DarkDreamer » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:11 pm

So what, set where you can only roll a char for a reward once per 30 days, if you do any more then that, you get Minor or if over lvl 26 normal with no chance for the 5%. That will slow that crap down.

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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by Cataclysm of Iron » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:14 pm

DarkDreamer wrote: Also, RPR doesn't reinforce anything, this is LONG proven that stuff like that doesn't do anything except cause hurt feelings and the feeling of players shacking up with specific people to get special goodies.
I'm not trying to be facetious or to bait you here, I am genuinely willing have my mind changed. In what way has it been proven (i.e. not just an opinion)?
Xerah wrote: People have a very weird possessive nature over a lot of things in Arelith.

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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by Cataclysm of Iron » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:16 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote: I.e. Sasha Silverscales was a player. Nautilus Lane in Cordor is named after Nautilus.
Were these 5% rolls? I always thought it was just a dev-level decision because of how fundamentally huge those characters were in terms of shaping the server.
Xerah wrote: People have a very weird possessive nature over a lot of things in Arelith.

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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by DarkDreamer » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:24 pm

Cataclysm of Iron wrote:
DarkDreamer wrote: Also, RPR doesn't reinforce anything, this is LONG proven that stuff like that doesn't do anything except cause hurt feelings and the feeling of players shacking up with specific people to get special goodies.
I'm not trying to be facetious or to bait you here, I am genuinely willing have my mind changed. In what way has it been proven (i.e. not just an opinion)?
https://hbr.org/1993/09/why-incentive-plans-cannot-work

Here you go, a literal study into it.

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Re: Policy change regarding rewards for interactive RP

Post by PinataPlethora » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:29 pm

@Septire

Going back to the original post, RP is its own reward for those initiated, but I'm strongly in favor of any system that incentivizes new or disenchanted players to try it, and especially get involved in group RP. I also think that any cookies given should be focused on beginning this group RP at low levels, rather than giving sufferers of Wandering Epic Syndrome something else to do.

I've always seen the most positive results from friendships and organizations that get started with low level characters that have not yet developed and figured out who they are and what they're about. It's a time when they're in need of help, and are more likely to stick around for the benefits even in the face of adversity, than wander off when ideologies clash, because they're already geared up.

The Blades Encarmine is a good recent example, which mirrors the success of your old buddy Salasker Dusk and The Dragon Cartel. A lot of the time, (most often, actually) low levels are about grinding up to teens so you can survive outside of Cordor, but these characters were giving lowbies something to do, which didn't necessarily require mechanical power. That's what I'd like to see the DMs encouraging and assisting with, and what I'd like to see treats and boons targeted toward, whether it's a burgeoning island wide mercenary company or buddy cop misadventures with just a small handful of knights errant.

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