Is Coffee IC? Yes.

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Cortex
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Re: Is Coffee IC? Yes.

Post by Cortex » Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:57 am

imagine if we sat down and told everything that breaks our immersion
:)

Seven Sons of Sin
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Re: Is Coffee IC? Yes.

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:57 am

So the problem is anachronistic uses of contemporary phrases and perceptions of things?

Huh.

You know, you can't escape that. Anachronism has existed, is existing, and will forever to continue to exist in Arelith.
You can't really expect to introduce much of anything and not expect a modern, 2018 twist on it. I bet we could sit here all day and list all the jarring things about Arelith that don't really make sense, or roleplay that others have conducted that is engorged with modernism. The best we can do is push pass the memes and carry on.

I don't really think we're being especially kind about this discussion, but there is some sense of humour to think anachronistic immersion-breaking antics are being found in discussions of coffee, of all things.
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Re: Is Coffee IC? Yes.

Post by RedGiant » Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:19 am

Morderon wrote:K(aeth)-cups.
Dang it. Beat me to it.
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JediMindTrix
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Re: Is Coffee IC? Yes.

Post by JediMindTrix » Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:26 am

Pretty sure there is a coffee items that raises your rest and sobriety in the server already.

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Dr. B
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Re: Is Coffee IC? Yes.

Post by Dr. B » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:26 am

You've arrived late to the party, my friend.

DM Always This Late
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Re: Is Coffee IC? Yes.

Post by DM Always This Late » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:40 am

* Takes a long drink of Coffee while writing a quest to save the long lost cup of blessed Joe.*

I'm sure by this point if a Dev has been swayed they'll change it. The arguments Don't really resonate with me, Coffee is pretty simple and in my opinion easily and readily explained. We have water and drink water IRL so do we rename water to something mystical, you know?

Maybe more modern approaches to drinking coffee could be something to avoid, but I've never seen any coffee RP really.
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Re: Is Coffee IC? Yes.

Post by DarkDreamer » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:47 am

I have tons of time...you clearly never sit at the Arcane Tower lol, that said, a simple rename to the Forgotten Realms equivalent would fix this.

Cataclysm of Iron
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Re: Is Coffee IC? Yes.

Post by Cataclysm of Iron » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:32 am

This is a bigger picture thing tbh. Some players aren’t here to simulate a pre-modern attitude and are happy to speak in modern vernacular about modern things and concepts in-game. Others don’t like it and find it jarring.

I personally wince when I hear people talking about “mates’ rates” or “felonies and misdemeanours” IG, or referring to people IG as “bigots”, or drinking “hot cocoa with a sambuca shot in it”, but it’s a case of My Fun is Different to Your Fun. No right to expect people to change it, really.

Point is, if that’s how you experience Arelith (and for me it is) it’s just an aspect to make your peace with. Other people are having fun their way and it doesn’t stop me playing mine; using context-specific (as I see it) language, layering my characters in prejudice, and drinking water, wine, and mead. Mechanically magicing away coffee isn’t really gonna change that bigger picture.
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Black Wendigo
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Re: Is Coffee IC? Yes.

Post by Black Wendigo » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:28 am

There is nothing to "fix". This is a problem created by the opinions of players, not something that actually affects gameplay. You people are being far too pedantic about the use of a single word that is not even mocern nor reflects a modern beverage. Coffee has been around for hundreds of years in one form or another. Further I do not see where Forgotten Realms says it does not exist or that the same thing cannot be named coffee.

PLease ask for changes that are actually worth someone's time to make. This is not one of them.

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Is Coffee IC? Yes.

Post by Baron Saturday » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:53 am

How, HOW, is a minor gripe about coffee something that that needed to be dragged out in front of the entire forum for three pages?

Just let it die. The point was made a long time ago.
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susitsu
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Re: Is Coffee IC? Yes.

Post by susitsu » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:45 pm

I think the dev team made their canon decision on coffee when they implemented it and it said "Coffee."

Even if the IG name was changed, my characters know it as coffee and will continue to refer to it as that forever.

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Re: Is Coffee IC? Yes.

Post by The GrumpyCat » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:53 pm

Yeah, I think this has been answered and explored fully.
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Re: Is Coffee IC? Yes.

Post by Huelander » Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:55 pm

I originally made a separate topic because of the thread being locked. But to appease the Grumpy Cat, I will be posting it in this thread instead as per their request. May his litterbox be clean of all unwelcome topics and posts.

The Coffee Dialogues. Part Deux: Roleplay lies in the beans

After monitoring the recent coffee discussion I am inclined to agree with the notions put forth by the original speaker on the matter. But I feel there was more to be said. You see, this affair was actually a segue into a much larger topic that went mostly unvoiced. Undoubtedly it has been brought up before somewhere in Arelith's vast history, but I figured to lay down some babbles of my own.

If anyone here does not appreciate my choice of topic title, then I urge all present parties to please tolerate my impudence. I am simply being cheeky, and my heart goes out to Twily.
Now, onto the topic at hand.

It is often observed that a portion of the players on Arelith aren't too concerned with roleplaying the settings, but just their characters. Casual roleplayers, if you will. Their activities have a tendency among the most invested crowds to invoke a variety immersion cracks. I think it is definitely a topic worthy of discussion, granted that anyone weighing in remains civil and doesn't get offended by a modicum of self-analysis. And also granted that no one actually goes about placing demands on the way that Arelith's players currently conduct their roleplay. After all; every server on NWN that got elitist about the quality of its RP has not survived the trial of time, and that is no coincidence.

So in that light, I would ask for tolerance, and in turn, encourage the clever minds of the people that have indulged in this discussion so far; towards a constructive dialogue that could be of educative assistance to the less RP-savvy players in the community. Who might incidentally gotten ahold of this topic. To lead by example, as it were. So that they too can someday weigh in on the cerebral activity of The Coffee Dialogues.

Here follow some examples of the aforementioned cracks in immersion and my thoughts on each. Some of them, arguably, plead for a concession. And the first two should be familiar to you by now.

- Coffee addiction, as if the character had a 9 to 5 job.
My advice: Give your character a career in Cordorian politics. :mrgreen:
I jest, of course. My real advice would be that you give your character some kind of backstory and reason to indulge in any would-be addictions, coffee or otherwise. Character flaws and habits are potent storytelling tools. So developing them would be a win-win for everyone involved. It gives others something to explore, ask and bond over.

- The use of modern linguistics.
My advice: 'Okay', here I draw a line and make a plea for compassion.
Not everyone is a native English speaker on Arelith, and not everyone who IS a native speaker actually majored in literature or even went to a university. I've also encountered the odd dyslectic here and there. Or a poor soul that got sedated by their shrink and could barely type because of it. So being elitist over language would simply not be fair to the many players out here. Roleplaying is a creative endeavor, and only through practicing it will one's skill at it ever develop.

- Characters having no jobs / societal participation. To the point where they might as well not exist the moment they log off for the day.
Thankfully D&D does offer plenty of murder-hobo careers that adventurers automatically drift into. Arelith is also pretty generous and encouraging with things to do, thanks to its many scripted systems. From its trackless sea registry, its crafting skills and resource gathering systems to settlement politics.

My advice: Look into the classes and skillset of your character, and find some things to do based on that. The moment you start doing this you begin to realize that there are things out there that other characters, and even settlements, can provide for your character. Natural relations with others can be developed on that basis. Alternatively, you can simply pretend your character is off doing X, Y, or Z whenever you log off. This latter suggestion is a particularly oft-employed strategy of the average antagonist archetype. Although, the more sophisticated antagonists tend to put some weight behind their actions.


- Elves that have spent the first 100 years of their lives doing, learning and knowing absolutely nothing about themselves.
My advice: If you can't be arsed to research the elves of Faerun, maybe play a half-elf? Please. This is my pet peeve. Please. JUST. PLEASE. THEY SPLIT THE CONTINENT IN TWO FOR CR-- Ahem. Moving on to the last one.


Bonus Round! At the risk of being incendiary, this piece of advice goes out to a perceivably small group of players out there, to which I send my best wishes and regards:

- Expressing postmodern political ideas of gender equity in a fictional setting that sports vastly different gender relations than our own history. And additionally, complaining that racism and violence between people is a primary theme in D&D.
My advice: Connect these themes to a sensible cultural movement in the realms. A specific kingdom/region/religion that would actually, reasonably, champion these ideals.
My real advice: Indulge less in the consumption of the contemporary American-brand postmodernist media culture, as you may have become trapped in it.

Either way folks, thanks for giving this a read. Feel free to weigh in on this broader discussion in a civil manner. And may the Grumpy Cat smite me down if I did wrong. Amen.

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Ork
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Re: Is Coffee IC? Yes.

Post by Ork » Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:09 pm

If you think this is bad, wait til we transition to EE & inevitably draw into us a large number of players that will be wholly unfamiliar to the setting. Might want to gird those loins now.

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-XXX-
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Re: Is Coffee IC? Yes.

Post by -XXX- » Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:35 pm

So, we have this pixelated beverage that rises your character's "rest" value when they drink it. Please don't tell me that its mere existence annoys you to the point in which you cannot bring yourself to log in anymore and/or that you cannot work with this concept in any other way than to RP it as >coffee<.

As for the setting - Arelith is under a strong Amnian influence. As far as FR nations go I have always perceived Amn as an equivalent of the renaissance Italy. Coincidentally, coffee shows up in RL records approx. back in the 15th century.
Furthermore, merchant ships and exotic goods sound very "Amny" to me, soo... what I'm trying to say here is that, speaking for myself, I do not only consider coffee IC, but I even find it rather flavorful TBH.

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Re: Is Coffee IC? Yes.

Post by Huelander » Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:54 pm

-XXX- wrote:I even find it rather flavorful.
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Twily
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Re: Is Coffee IC? Yes.

Post by Twily » Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:07 pm

Please don't tell me that its mere existence annoys you to the point in which you cannot bring yourself to log in anymore and/or that you cannot work with this concept in any other way than to RP it as >coffee<.
No one ever said this.


Also, Sorry for this, But I need to get it out there.
Directed at no one in specific.

We get it, Coffee is setting appropriate.
Not a single person has been arguing that it isn't for the entirety of the thread.

If people want to discuss coffee or similar themes unrelated to my suggestion, that's fine.
The OP quotes my suggestion as if saying I don't believe coffee to be setting appropriate. While initally true, my suggestion was edited to state I do believe coffee setting appropriate long before this thread was ever made.

These endless posts(some far more eloquent than others) about how coffee is setting appropriate, or all of this sarcasm and rude behavior is not needed.
I won't deny that coffee being immersion breaking for me is a very trivial thing, but one would think there's no harm in posting a suggestion about it anyways. People do such all the time; there's dozens of suggestions of people simply voicing their opinion on small matters.
All of those suggestions are left untouched, and so I figured mine would be as well. Why there's so much backlash against this topic specifically makes no sense.

And here's a quote from Lorkas on a different thread to which he locked. (why this thread didn't receive the same treatment, I have no idea.)
Lorkas wrote:If the admins wanted commentary on suggestions, comments would be enabled in the suggestion forum.

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Marsi
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Re: Is Coffee IC? Yes.

Post by Marsi » Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:37 pm

I think the lesson here is that trying to frame fantasy within the confines of historical reality is both fruitless and a never-ending rabbit hole. Not even "realism fantasy" is ever realistic or historically accurate, so to try and remain staunchly historically informed in what has to be D&D's most generic fantasy setting must be maddening. Not to mention how truth can be weirder than fiction sometimes.

When someone complains about how they need their morning joe, the problem isn't "b-but coffee wasn't discovered in Europe until xyz A.D", it's that the collectively imagined aesthetic has been violated. It's too close to home, which is the opposite of what fantasy wants to be. That's my hunch at least -- how politics discussed with modern language irks most people yet no-one bats an eyelid at the Runescape metal hierarchy we have, the existence of leather armour (or worse, studded leather armour lmao), or swords being worn on backs, or even the very idea of 'adventurers' running around doing odd jobs for people.

Why should the great bell of Beaulieu toll when the shadows were neither short nor long?


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Re: Is Coffee IC? Yes.

Post by Xerah » Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:39 pm

Marsi wrote:metal hierarchy
As a geologist, trust me, I bat plenty of eyes at rotating veins hah, but I just accept it as game-y rather than someone I worry about.
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Xanos950
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Re: Is Coffee IC? Yes.

Post by Xanos950 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:49 pm

Right. Let's translate "Adventurer" to "Mercenary" which we translate to "It ain't worth it to travel many months to die in a war" and let's all go back to potato farming as the peasants we are.

Moral of the story? It's fantasy... Why is this topic not locked yet?

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Lorkas
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Re: Is Coffee IC? Yes.

Post by Lorkas » Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:52 pm

And here's a quote from Lorkas on a different thread to which he locked. (why this thread didn't receive the same treatment, I have no idea.)
I can answer that: it's because I have a one-month-old now which has made my time here quite sporadic. I don't get to read quite as comprehensively as I used to, and Miaou has my thanks for picking up my slack a bit.

As an aside that's more related to this whole multi-thread fiasco, my entire life is coffee now. Coffee and other fluids.

Let's be done with this and move on to the next thing, please.

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