A plea to publish/redefine ride requirements.

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BegoneThoth
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A plea to publish/redefine ride requirements.

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:48 pm

Contributor Kirito wrote;
Rather than you all complaining, why not play the game and explore. Grab a horse with 6 ride and see how you do. Fall off? Well put another point in when you level.

Rinse and repeat.
Benchmark values have been given. 6 and 33 ranks. You can even guess that somewhere in the middle... say 16 ranks... you'll have a middling ability. Your ogre might not be able to ride that elven warhorse through the gates of hell but a sober human not heavily laden or with a crippling balance problem should do alright fighting ogres on a horse meant for fighting outside Cordor most of the time.

Why? because all the variables. you've been told this many times before and can read the example found earlier here demonstrating this.
Except haste spell is a fixed point. It's always a level 3 spell (editors note; incorrect). It isn't a moving target based on your environment whereas ride requirements are. Consequently giving lower and upper bounds are the only workable solution to player builds.

You want to ride perfectly on any horse, in and out of combat? it's 33 ranks. You want to ride down a safe road with your friends on a nice docile horse? 6 ranks.

You want to ride a horse? 6 ranks, an elven horse? 15 ranks, with a dwarf? 20 ranks... who is mildly inehibriated? 22 ranks... in combat against a badger? 24 ranks, the badgers on fire? 26 ranks, you are fighting the badger in avernus? 33 ranks whilst being heavily encumbered with 3000lbs of coal ? 0 ranks... you broke the horses back...now you gotta walk.
Is that combat against badgers? Combat against orcs? Combat against dragons?

What about the number of ales you want to drink before riding into combat?

Where do you want to fight?

What about combat against torch wielding foes?

How much weight do you want to be able to carry?
Why are there so many variables to riding a horse? Why isn't it a simple d20+skill vs a static DC based on the kind of horse you're trying to ride? Why is the DC hidden at all?

Ride is -not- a class skill for every class, and it is simply not an option to max the skill on many builds, due to rogue, bard, wizard, and other classes not getting access to the skill. The suggestion, therefore, of "Fall off? Well put another point in when you level" is cruel and bad design, as many classes simply do not have the opportunity to do that, and heavily punishes those without access to Discord where such things are openly discussed anyway.

I take specific umbrage with the first quote by Kirito in particular, as I feel it is an insane position for a D&D game, and makes no sense at all when used on other mechanics. Take a look;
Rather than you all complaining, why not play the game and explore. Grab some armor with 6 AC and see how you do. Get hit? Well put another enhancement bonus on when you craft.

Rinse and repeat.
Rather than you all complaining, why not play the game and explore. Cast a spell with 6 concentration and see how you do. Lose the spell? Well put another point in when you level.

Rinse and repeat.
Rather than you all complaining, why not play the game and explore. Grab Drow with 6 SR and see how you do. Spell resisted? Well put another point in spell penetration when you level.

Rinse and repeat.
I do not like this position, much more-so when applied to something as benign as riding a horse that has, all to itself, so much going on behind the scenes it actually cannot be explained. Why is it like this? What is gained by this? Why is riding a horse so singular in its mechanics compared to literally every other system in D&D 3.0, which NWN emulates?

This is a request to please explain the ride mechanics to the player base, and explain why the decision to make riding a horse was made so supremely complicated and what benefit to the server and playerbase comes from such byzantine obfuscation.

Dev quotes all from here; viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16167
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Re: A plea to publish/redefine ride requirements.

Post by Queen Titania » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:58 pm

The Ride System is still being further defined. I would really wait until it is complete, and then it is up to the Dev's to explain at that point.
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BegoneThoth
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Re: A plea to publish/redefine ride requirements.

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:10 pm

You may be right, but this still has me concerned;
You want to ride a horse? 6 ranks, an elven horse? 15 ranks, with a dwarf? 20 ranks... who is mildly inehibriated? 22 ranks... in combat against a badger? 24 ranks, the badgers on fire? 26 ranks, you are fighting the badger in avernus? 33 ranks whilst being heavily encumbered with 3000lbs of coal ? 0 ranks... you broke the horses back...now you gotta walk.
While I'm sure this post must be farcical, what is the plan? Is the plan to make horse riding consider player race/sobriety/location as well as horse breed/ride ranks?

If it is going to include things like race and sobriety and location, why? What's gained by such an elaborate system?
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Re: A plea to publish/redefine ride requirements.

Post by Shadowy Reality » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:29 pm

What is the point to knowing how it exactly works, so you can min max over that Ride skill?

Just max the skill if you want to ride horses, it should do fine.

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Re: A plea to publish/redefine ride requirements.

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:44 pm

Can't always max ride, the popular wizard/bard for example never gets a chance to pick it up. So suddenly 'how much can you do with 16 ride' is very relevant.

Given that summon stats are published in detail I don't see why making public how much of a skill you need to engage in an Arelith specific content is unwarranted.
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Teshil
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Re: A plea to publish/redefine ride requirements.

Post by Teshil » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:45 pm

I think the decision to make ride complicated and secret was a good idea and made in good faith, but should be reconsidered. Thanks.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: A plea to publish/redefine ride requirements.

Post by BegoneThoth » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:47 pm

I agree with you.
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Re: A plea to publish/redefine ride requirements.

Post by Liareth » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:54 pm

D&D mechanics are well defined. You look them up and build a character based on them. Vague and mysterious mechanics are the antithesis of this. I think it would make sense for the exact DCs to be properly documented.

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Re: A plea to publish/redefine ride requirements.

Post by roy rutan » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:57 pm

Even in table top your not going to have every character able to maximize riding to the point that they can participate in all content such as fighting from the back of a horse. so there should be no issue here. we dont need to know every stat from the back end of the game to play. part of playing the game is learning these things in game.

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Re: A plea to publish/redefine ride requirements.

Post by Baron Saturday » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:58 pm

While I generally like the idea of mechanics that are a bit mysterious and learned through doing, I think that NWN is the wrong platform for them. I've got to agree with BegoneThoth on this one.
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Re: A plea to publish/redefine ride requirements.

Post by Nitro » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:02 pm

roy rutan wrote:Even in table top your not going to have every character able to maximize riding to the point that they can participate in all content such as fighting from the back of a horse. so there should be no issue here. we dont need to know every stat from the back end of the game to play. part of playing the game is learning these things in game.
You don't learn it in game though. There's nothing telling you if you failed because you have too little skill to ride the horse, if you're wearing too much armour, if someone nearby has a torch or whatever other modifiers are in. We don't even know what those modifiers are.

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Re: A plea to publish/redefine ride requirements.

Post by Cortex » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:49 am

neigh
:)

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BegoneThoth
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Re: A plea to publish/redefine ride requirements.

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:52 am

In base 3.0 and 3.5, the 'ride' skill is explained very simply.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/ride.htm

I do not see why we need a system any more complex then the base game provides.
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flower
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Re: A plea to publish/redefine ride requirements.

Post by flower » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:12 am

I would just add that usege of mount is so much limited to few areas, that following things should be avoided in design:
- falling on roll of 1 on d20 check
- adding tons of modifiers making you vulnerable to fall off in combat (torches and other) further making riding even more useless
- rework how mounting / dismounting happens and change it from dialogue to something able to do in combat
- remove the re-size of character when mounted, set it to medium size.

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Re: A plea to publish/redefine ride requirements.

Post by Harasha » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:53 am

I'd add that, making a feature that's a puzzle to figure out is cool.. But there are caveats. One, you ought to know the mechanical requirements to even try. If your character can't do it, you should know as a player not to bother trying.

Two, figuring out this knowledge should generate RP. A character who knows how to use something like the Deck of Stars can teach an apprentice in-game. Or the new enchanting system, even, seems to be knowledge that can be shared thus generating RP. I don't think a character can explain to another character, easily, how many ride skill points you need. The modifiers, maybe.

Three, it shouldn't be a cool kids club thing where those with OOC knowledge have the upper hand and a new or casual player is shut out completely. This seems like the sort of OOC knowledge the elites are going to PM each other on Discord and a newbie or casual isn't even going to know how to begin to access.

This is none of those things. I don't know the requirements to even try to ride a horse. It doesn't seem possible to learn from a knowledgeable character in game, even if they know themselves.

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Re: A plea to publish/redefine ride requirements.

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:29 am

roy rutan wrote:Even in table top your not going to have every character able to maximize riding to the point that they can participate in all content such as fighting from the back of a horse. so there should be no issue here. we dont need to know every stat from the back end of the game to play. part of playing the game is learning these things in game.
The issue here that is being highlighted has nothing to do with whether or not every character is able to maximize ride.

The issue is that in tabletop, you know 15 ranks in ride will be sufficient to cover conditions A, B, and C, but not conditions D and E. In fact, forget table-top, let's talk NWN. You can math out how much discipline a melee character needs in a level 30 environment to never get knocked down. You can math out how much discipline is too little discipline to be a worthwhile investment. You can do the same for lore, UMD, spellcraft, hide, move silently, open lock... see a trend here?

Whereas from what I'm reading, the issue here is that if you are race A with class B who tends to be at C sobriety, you have no idea what conditions 15 ranks will and won't cover. Regardless of whether or not you can max the skill, you may still invest cross-class ranks.

If a mechanic is so obscure that someone can level to 30 before finding out they just threw away 30 skill points, it should be given more transparency, because in the above situation, I would quit rather than risk discovering something else may be similarly undocumented on a new toon.
Last edited by Aelryn Bloodmoon on Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A plea to publish/redefine ride requirements.

Post by MoreThanThree » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:39 am

ALRIGHT FAM.
PM me RIGHT NOW. We're gonna make lvl 3s and we're going to powergrind EVERY POSSIBLE BUILD to test what is most optimal at riding BECAUSE
Harasha wrote:Two, figuring out this knowledge should generate RP.
AND
Shadowy Reality wrote:What is the point to knowing how it exactly works, so you can min max over that Ride skill?

Just max the skill if you want to ride horses, it should do fine.
AND
Rather than you all complaining, why not play the game and explore. Grab a horse with 6 ride and see how you do. Fall off? Well put another point in when you level.

Rinse and repeat.
ALL SAID WE SHOULD
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Re: A plea to publish/redefine ride requirements.

Post by Harasha » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:40 am

You are, uh, misquoting me there.

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Re: A plea to publish/redefine ride requirements.

Post by MoreThanThree » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:49 am

o rly
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Re: A plea to publish/redefine ride requirements.

Post by RamblerTeo » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:49 am

lol

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Tarkus the dog
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Re: A plea to publish/redefine ride requirements.

Post by Tarkus the dog » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:32 pm

if you roll one while riding a horse your character falls off and breaks his neck pking himself

add this to the game please

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Re: A plea to publish/redefine ride requirements.

Post by Imperatrix » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:08 pm

The main thing that doesn't make sense about the current implementation is that you need epic levels to get enough ranks in ride to even competently ride a horse in any kind of remotely strenuous situation

This implies that only near-demigods are capable of riding a horse.

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Re: A plea to publish/redefine ride requirements.

Post by Dreams » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:23 pm

I could ride a horse when I was 6. The horse was a cranky shit, middle-aged, bit people and tried to throw people all the time. I never fell, neither did anyone else. This horse isn't the norm. Most horses won't randomly try to throw their rider by the time you're riding them. They get trained. Most trained horses are very easy to ride. Even the cranky ones are easy to ride.

It is an easy skill.

I kind of feel like we've gotten Snuggle a Bugbear with horses every time it gets changed. I rolled my two horse reward characters because I was upset with how they were no longer able to ride their horses without falling off every few rounds for no discernible reason. There's no real reason to even try to make something horse-related anymore. Unless you like the frustration of having no idea what is going on, or forcing another bit of RP that is "Haha yeah I fell off my horse and then it charged the huge group of gnomes that scared it? So now it's dead cool"

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Re: A plea to publish/redefine ride requirements.

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:32 pm

Imperatrix wrote:The main thing that doesn't make sense about the current implementation is that you need epic levels to get enough ranks in ride to even competently ride a horse in any kind of remotely strenuous situation

This implies that only near-demigods are capable of riding a horse.
I agree with you, except that I don't think a ride DC of 25/30 is out of line if we're talking about planar horses, like the Nightmare.

I'd propose the following

DC11 to attempt to ride anything. Can ride ultra-basic horses with no problem.
DC16 to ride a warhorse with no problem.
DC21 for a race-horse if you're the incorrect race (such as a dwarf on an elven horse, etc)
DC26/31 for 'special' horses.

(Each DC is 1 higher then the investment because rolling a 1 should not be an auto-fail/auto fall off horse)

This would be clear, easy to understand, allow literally anyone to ride terrestrial horses w/o taking a class that gets ride, and allow for 'epic' riders to tame the more epic horses around. The ride feats would also be disabled as it's nothing more then a useless feat tax for no reason imposed on characters that want to ride a horse, and I don't see any RP benefit to making people take feats that are useless in caves or indoors just so they can be on a horse, and that requirement just makes horsemanship impossible on feat-starved builds.

It would ideally ignore 'ride' skill gear and only count raw character skill investment. I know there's some code already in the game that apparently also boosts your ride speed based on ride gear, and that can stay I guess, but I don't know the specifics (nor does anyone else) so my opinion is subject to change.

Thoughts on my alternate ride suggestion?
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Re: A plea to publish/redefine ride requirements.

Post by Cybernet21 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:34 am

BegoneThoth wrote:
Imperatrix wrote:The main thing that doesn't make sense about the current implementation is that you need epic levels to get enough ranks in ride to even competently ride a horse in any kind of remotely strenuous situation

This implies that only near-demigods are capable of riding a horse.
I agree with you, except that I don't think a ride DC of 25/30 is out of line if we're talking about planar horses, like the Nightmare.

I'd propose the following

DC11 to attempt to ride anything. Can ride ultra-basic horses with no problem.
DC16 to ride a warhorse with no problem.
DC21 for a race-horse if you're the incorrect race (such as a dwarf on an elven horse, etc)
DC26/31 for 'special' horses.

(Each DC is 1 higher then the investment because rolling a 1 should not be an auto-fail/auto fall off horse)

This would be clear, easy to understand, allow literally anyone to ride terrestrial horses w/o taking a class that gets ride, and allow for 'epic' riders to tame the more epic horses around. The ride feats would also be disabled as it's nothing more then a useless feat tax for no reason imposed on characters that want to ride a horse, and I don't see any RP benefit to making people take feats that are useless in caves or indoors just so they can be on a horse, and that requirement just makes horsemanship impossible on feat-starved builds.

It would ideally ignore 'ride' skill gear and only count raw character skill investment. I know there's some code already in the game that apparently also boosts your ride speed based on ride gear, and that can stay I guess, but I don't know the specifics (nor does anyone else) so my opinion is subject to change.

Thoughts on my alternate ride suggestion?
Why not make it DC 10,DC 15,DC 20,DC 25/30? It feels better that way

EDIT:Actually,DC 5 for the first one might be better.And the way i presented is better for a lot of builds that would want to use ride effectively since many of those builds stay at 8 DEX wich means -1 to Ride.

Maybe pull the others a bit lower as well? Like this: DC 5,DC 10,DC 15,DC 20/25
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