Growing sights of racial inequality in game

[caldura firebourne]

it may help to look at it not as a segregation of races in the setting, but closer to being a segregation of species, whiles elves halflings gnomes dwarves and half orcs are "humanoid" they are not a subtype of human

one might liken this to a city IRL allowing apes to come in, and live as citizens.

[DarkDreamer]

There are those that do feel that way, and Jadoth pointing it out, does not make it a baseless statement just because you haven't seen it, and yes I do agree that things like that should be reported.

[Sab1]

Also trying to force everything open goes against many races traditions, elves for one have a long history of trying to be isolationist and wanting to be left alone. It wouldn't make any sense for myon to suddenly be open to everyone to just wander about in.

[Teshil]

Forgotten Realms has racism as a big part of the setting. This is forgotten realms. It’s not real life. That’s the end of the argument for me.

[Griefmaker]

The underlying issue of this topic is something we see posted often...this being "my character is ICly restricted for some reason and I OOCly think it is unfair".

With that being said, I think it is great that there are small secluded areas locked away from everyone and their brother being able to access it and have their way with it. There are some larger safe and secluded areas that I believe would be better if they were changed to be smaller...but that is another topic. But these /small/ areas allow for specific racial or a certain group's ideology to exist without constant issues such as destruction of fixtures and the like, which is the primary way for a foe to "combat" such things apparently.

What DM Titania was talking about in regards to merging areas like Brog/Bendir would be great as well, I think. Andunor with its districts is something I see working well, since the districts can have their own separate flavor depending on who controls them, but the close quarters forces the various races and groups to encounter each other more often instead of allowing them to only exist away from everyone else.

Like DM Grumpy and others have mentioned too...I have been feeling that another general open-raced area would be good. It does not have to be huge, but something that has a full array of services, quarters, resources, and allow a faction/group to thrive which is not good/evil or a specific race would be welcome.

But in the end, the racism and mistrust of other races and all of that is pure gold and is generally the rule, not the exception in the Forgotten Realms. I am glad to see dwarves being dwarves and elves being elves and hin being hin again. It may mean that other races are excluded from "racial activities", but that can be the same for any faction, such as Cordor's Guardsmen or the like. It happens and one simply has to go and do something else. Fortunately, there is a LOT to be involved in on Arelith, though sometimes it can be hard to find.

[caldura firebourne]

racial inequality is one of the bigger catalysts that drives conflict that pushes the story forward, if we start taking away the things that make conflict, it doesn't take long for things to become rather stale

sure people can be upset that elves treat other elves better than the other races, complaining about it on the forum out of character does nothing to further a story

whereas a human protesting the lack of inclusion Myon has towards other races opens up alot of roleplay avenues, it doesn't even have to be outright PVP, Conflict does not always end in wars and death, try a diplomatic approach, garner support from the other settlements, and if need be, cut them off from trade and travel if they don't comply, but do it in character.

[BegoneThoth]

Isn't getting barred from roleplay due to being the incorrect race a form of roleplay?

[caldura firebourne]

Isn't getting barred from roleplay due to being the incorrect race a form of roleplay?

if it's rephrased into more of an IC viewpoint, being shunned or ignored due to your race being different, then yes

[Xerah]

I had a character who was on the wrong side of the racial thing. People were attacking her for trying to be open. I ended that line of RP because it wasn't something I enjoyed, but I don't think the players were doing anything wrong for it.

I think it's important to decide if you want to deal with that line of RP in both an IC and OOC basis. For me, it wasn't going to help my character tell stories I thought were interesting, so I just removed myself from the situation.

[DM Always This Late]

Some of my thoughts on the matter would be,

That I am in favor of more...Isolationist approaches from races, especially regarding elves. I consider things like an elves age, cultural differences, and mindsets, I think they are all quite unique and while Elves may circulate freely in the open world when it comes to their homes and cities? That's a different matter.

If Myon were more open, the sensation of 'awe' or honor when one is finally allowed into the city would be entirely lost. Myon would lose a lot of its magic in my opinion.

Hin, gnomes, and earthkin in general all have their own social traits to follow. I've really enjoyed seeing the Earthkin races, dwarves and gnomes especially, approaching humans with a measure of caution if not outright denial because they do not trust their intentions. And that's fair! Humans are short lived fireballs of fast moving passion where as Dwarves are generally longer lived with a more stout approach to things.

I'd support these segregations because when the RP that does unite races or cities happens it becomes way more relevant and important. If the standard was for all settlements to be open and accepting then I think things would get a lot more dull. so if you are a human that gets accepted to say Bendir, then you've obviously done them some considerable honors! And I think players are OOC receptive to that but it all depends on the RP and the characters involved.

I also think things are really open already, and players are very receptive to accepting new people/races into their societies and groups. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But I think racial segregation is an important dynamic in the stories that are told and adds a lot of depth and flavor that would be lost otherwise if it were not maintained. I do not think just because a character desires to be apart of X society, that they should be on the merits of desire alone.

Here's some quick lore links that I think are relevant and are important to consider when interacting with other races

Dwarves

Dwarven friendship was hard to earn, but was strong once won. Naturally dour and suspicious, the stout folk were slow to trust others, specifically towards those outside their family, suspecting the worst of an individual until the outsider proved many times their good will. Once this trust was gained, dwarves held their friends to it and viewed betrayals, even minor ones, with a vicious propensity for vengeance.[4] A common gnomish oath, remarking on this dwarven sense of justice, was “if I'm lying, may I cross a dwarf.”[5]

High elf

Due to their longevity and strong ties to the otherworldly magic of the Feywild, high elves have a detached view of the world outside of their sphere. High elves as a whole have difficulty believing that the events occurring over mere "years" affect them in any major way,[5

Elves in general

Elves tend to make strong and uplifting friends. Most elves love simple joys such as dancing, singing, footraces, or contests of skill. They have a natural aversion to that which they see as uninteresting tasks and are fun-loving by nature. However, despite how unpleasant some things such as war can be, elves can become grimly serious if a threat to their friends, family, or livelihood makes such actions necessary.[5]

Those are just some references I might use when gauging the mindset of other races and how I would expect them to treat my character being whatever race I was outside of their own culture.

So I guess that'd be my thoughts on the matter.

[Hammerwell]

A very strong theme in the RP I've seen so far. Also a strong drive behind most of the stories I've seen happening in the Earthkin community. Lots of those stories are fun (and sometimes super intriguing!), but others can be rather annoying.

I personally try to remind myself that I am playing in a fantasy setting, and that my character's prejudices are my character's, and not my own.

[Liareth]

Not everybody should be involved in everything, IMO. Being inclusive is great and bending RP to that end is commendable - but it is possible to go too far, and the setting can be diluted as a result. To me, in game racial inequality is an important part of the setting. Conflict is key. Remember, you aren't your character.

[Echohawk]

Rule 1 - Be nice, obviously keep your stuff in character. If there's an out of character issue specifically report it. Otherwise, this really isn't much of a discussion, just a reminder.

(Unrelatedly feel free to bash my corpse because I'm a stinky infernalist doo doo head )
((Does this topic really need to continue.))

Edit - My great show of maturity aside.
If you don't have challenge, danger, opportunity to fail, then rewards are meaningless.
If you don't have rivalries, predispositions, conflicts to overcome then this whole thing becomes a giant tea house simulator.
This is not a place for you to have your own personal fantasy lived out, you create your persona, you try to put on their thoughts their understanding of the world and like a wind up toy see where it goes.
Sometimes it falls off the table, sometimes it makes it to its goal, there are so many factors in place to add to the thrill of it. If you get to go wherever you want it's because you earn it not because you just feel like it.

[Improv]

Anybody can make any race or class they want. Some are restricted but not inaccessible, you just have to work for it. But there aren't any settlements completely blocked to any *player*. If you are intrigued by Myon.. make an elf or half-elf alt. Otherwise, you gotta make friends or generate some reason to be involved.

But racial equality isn't going to happen, and probably shouldn't. Play a Duergar and you have it pretty bad, few others of your kind and no real home base. Play an Outcast human and you can go almost anywhere you want. Play an imp or pixie and you're a little weirdo who doesn't belong anywhere. Play a gnome and you have the Grotto plus most of the surface. It's all part of the varied experience, no one class can do everything either. It sounds limiting but it also means a new character can have a 100% different experience than your last, unlike a game like Skyrim where you can make someone who's godlike at every single thing.

[Umskiptar]

Hey man, please

[Dovesong]

Essentially, understand that one's racial choice may make some things easier or more difficult, I.E. Tieflings may find outright inhospitable treatments, a hin may get falsely accused of theft, the elf made fun of during their participation in their dwarf's patrol. It's part of the choice. Embrace the tension. And if you find it too frustrating, take a step back. Remember it's just a game.

I'm all for more cohesiveness, but I do think the racial flavor of things shouldn't be lost, especially the tension

This. Racial bias and inequality are absolutely supported by lore. Evermeet, Thay, Hillsfar, most Dwarven citadels, ANYthing Lolthite. The "tolerance" mindset is ABSOLUTELY our 21st-Century-Earth mindset at play.

While you shouldn't be a jerk to the point of going out of your way to shut down RP, RP that expects racial groups to change how they tend to look at a race should require a lot of work and dedication imo. It's hard. It can be frustrating. But the payoff can be incredibly worth it.

[The GrumpyCat]

I find an amount of racism really fun to bounce up against honestly, it makes relationships born through it matter more. Great example is Legolas/Gimli from Lord of The Rings. Neither particularly liked the other to start with, but in the end they became friends. And the friendship means more because it breaks sociatal bounds. But for it to break it, it has to be there.

[Xanos950]

it feels like this entire thread is bait

[If Valor Were Inches]

Some of my favorite moments from my personal characters surged off of racial animosity. My ooooold Aasimar Jacob with Dog/Hound(?) and another tiefling I can't remember, and Bernadette and...pretty much anyone not Bernadette. Bernadette's entire RP was based off of racial inequality, so it being how it is set is important to her character.

[Dreams]

I feel like people wouldn't see this as an issue if they were able to properly separate IC issues and OOC issues/thoughts/ideals?

The Forgotten Realms has a lot of races. Most of them have their prejudices. It's not just race, it's also regional. All of the racial behaviors you're seeing in character are exactly that, in character, a part of the game, not anything personal on an OOC level.

[Ork]

If you run into a race that is openly hostile or prejudicial to your character - that's good.

If you leave that encounter thinking that that prejudicial character was mean to you - that's bad.

Disassociate from what you're playing - you are not your character.

[Tyrantos]

Did this entire thing get resolved? Feels like it did. Uh. And not to hijack the thread but.. This is also a fedual/reinessance settning. So some of the concepts that gets.. moved about can be quite foreign to some charathers. Kinda. (We just happen to live in venice, on arelith.)

[A little fellow]

I welcome the growth of racial inequality (a sentence I thought I'd never speak). Racial inequality in FR is /not/ racial inequality in real life .. It is more species inequality in a barbaric and unforgiving setting that in influenced by many assets of historical life which is pumped up with steroids and let loose to play.

If you are upset by rampant species inequality because it mimics racism in real life then I take it you also are upset by the fact that the Forgotten realms is full to the brim with murder, devil worship, etc ... Well you shouldn't be, because nobody is being murdered during our play sessions, and nobody is subject to racist slurs during them either - and If they are, they are quick to be banned, I hope.

In my experience with players who are OOCly offended by species inequality, it is largely because the player who is getting the hard end of the stick in the exchange isn't committed to seeing out a full story which might lead to acceptance and greater equality. That's their perogative, but it doesn't make my character evil, nor does it make me an enabler of actual racist undertones in this game.

My character is racist when held against modern day standards. But that hasn't stopped me playing with dirty Orcbloods, or contemptuous Humans .. Especially those who commit to RPing with me and my Dwarf friends. These stories can be all the richer because of lengthy obstacles to overcome, these obstacles can't, and should not be overcome in a single conversation .. Unless you like stories written by 4 year olds.

[One Two Three Five]

fedual/reinessance settning

[Borin Drakkmurl]

This subject comes up every once in a while. And though I might understand the reasoning behind it, it is in the end counter intuitive to the whole point of D&D roleplay.

Remove species/racial tension, remove well defined boundries, remove the notion of "other", and we lose much of what makes roleplay fun. Not to mention that characters are, very often, defined more by what they cant do, where they can't go and who they can't speak with, than the other way around.

The way I see it, the more tools the community is given to form well rounded, solid and interesting groups/cities/nations, the more diverse the game world will be, due to the way these hubs interact with and oppose each other, plus the gray spots in between them.

So,and as odd as this might sound to modern ears, the way to avoid "racial inequality" in game is not to just open everything up, so that playing a 4'6 beard-braided shield dwarf or a 5'9 wizard of thay provide the exact same experience and opportunities. It is the other way around. We need to have a wide puzzle made of many pieces of many shapes and sizes and colors that form a whole. A bloody, messy whole.



Tl;dr :

When we log onto Arelith, we are living here:



And not on a culture-of-outrage & micro-agressions twitter feed rpg.


*Goes back into hiding.*