Growing sights of racial inequality in game

[DarkDreamer]

I am posting this because it is something I am noticing growing strongly in our community and its slowly something that's pushing me away from wanting to play various races. While most answers are a "Resolve Ingame" I feel this is something that needs to be looked at from an Out of game point of view.

More and more the ideal of racism is being considered a good thing, groups able to seal themselves off from the rest of the server creating an ooc ideal of xenophobia that is carrying on in game. Two strong examples of this are the Grotto and Myon. Playing around the server I am also seeing racism in Bendir and in Brogendenstien. While you might consider this a fun aspect of the server, that is four of six settlements on the server that are cut off from other players. One of my alt characters has been trying to change this perspective in one of the four settlements, but the constant response is always the same, "You don't see Myon opening the Mythal to let people in, or the Grotto, or Brogendenstien" as if this is a great reason for racial exclusion.

I want to say that some players are accepting the ideal of change, and are open to the prospect, but others completely shut you down instantly that their communities traditions bar outsiders as a traditional town. The problem is, Bendir, Brogendenstien and Myon are not traditional settlements at all. Bendir is in the center of the isle, meaning ninety percent of the human/elven/hin/gnome and dwarven people are going to flock there. While I agree somewhat with "tall ones" not owning the houses in the city, the ideal that they cannot be accepted as part of the community, cannot be citizens, cannot be any real part of Bendir or Brogendenstien or Myon, is actually rather upsetting and bothersome.

I have repeatedly appealed to the Admins, and to Irongorn to remove the Mythal, unlock the Grotto, and work to make the server more inclusive as at this moment, its beginning to feel like a clique for specific groups and I do not believe that is truly the way Irongorn nor the admins want to take the server. Just my two cents.

[Lorkas]

I've always seen exactly the opposite problem--it's a way, way bigger problem for the setting when people say things like "Don't judge this drow by their race!", while I've always seen Brogendenstein and Bendir/Burrowhome as communities with good cohesion based on the race of those who live there, and more than one human/elf/half-orc have become well-accepted in those communities when they actually put the work in to prove themselves.

You're not going to walk into Brogendenstein as a human and be given a kuld badge immediately, and that's a good thing. It's setting-appropriate for it to be difficult for a human/elf/half-orc/other to become accepted in any of the places you mentioned, but it is absolutely possible through careful longer-term RP.

[DarkDreamer]

I agree MONSTER races should not be accepted, and have repeatedly pointed those chars out to DMs when they get far too surface happy. Playing as one in Bendir that is not a Hin/Gnome/Dwarf, I have found your answer actually incorrect Lorkas, im not the only one to see it either. It was someone else even pointing it out to me that encouraged me to make this post.

[One Two Three Five]

Have your character decide this far no further and start putting the boots to racists IG. Also, wouldn't the word be like, speciesist? Humans and elves aren't the same, like, type of creature. They just share a weirdly prolific phenotype.

Although does the fact that they can interbreed make them close enough genetically to be considered the same 'race'? What about dragons, in that case?

[DarkDreamer]

Doing that unfortunately would increase the issue of segregating the races. Sadly rather then decrease it.

[Miaou]

This is a really touchy subject, as "racism" is an issue and actively being fought in the real world, and is viewed as bad generally. The thing is, the world of Forgotten Realms is not our world, and racism, bigotry, and hate is a general aspect of it's world. It's a detail. Even the default descriptions for some of the races talk about how they come to this place to show the other races who's boss, or stand strong on their own. I don't see the distrust/loathing/hate/mistrust of different races other than your character to be a bad thing. It is apart of the world and separates it from us.

I also believe there is a mindset that for one to roleplay or interact with something, they must be accepted in it's entirety. I have a character who is actively denied having any sort of standing or even allowed around certain communities, yet I've had loads of roleplay and interactions spawned from it. One does not need to be told "yes" or allowed to do something for it to be considered allowed.

For the examples give, Bendir lets anyone come in, trade, talk, and for the most part engage in it's events. It is, however, a hinnish focused settlement. A goal for a human character, for instance, is better off being "I want to be involved" rather than "I want to be their mayor!". Dwarves keep to themselves, but you can easily interact and roleplay with them. Myon as well. They have a Mythral, sure, but you can do something to interact with them other than standing by some couches.

All in all, I feel is it more an issue of expectations of what it means to have an interaction and engage in roleplay. A "no" is not bad roleplay. A character hating another character, or conflict in general, is not bad roleplay.

[MoreThanThree]

A goal for a human character, for instance, is better off being "I want to be involved" rather than "I want to be their mayor!".

Integration is conquest.
The human mayor of Borrowhome is the human overlord of the hin.
The human who tears down the mythal to let humans into Myon is the human dictator of Myon.

[DarkDreamer]

Fairly Miaou, your character is denied those areas, because of things your character ICly has done to earn that, I have never tried to have my character as Mayor. But a closed door, is still a closed door. Also to get to the couches in Myon, you have to be let up. Just sayin.

[Nitro]

I love seeing some actual racial tension among the surface races, it's a staple of the Faerun setting that I feel has previously been underrepresented in the "Let's all hold hands and fight the mean cave-dwellers" (paraphrasing) that's been going on until now.

[Cortex]

this thread is lovely comedy gold

[flower]

I am, rather upset, by total different way it is going. Most people want to be friends with anyone, regardless of race or class.

I wish to see more class and racial stereotypes. Elves acting like Elves not excusing their human like behavior by common story "raised by humans...growing up in human city..." and alike.

I wish to see Elves actually worship Seldarine, and not non elven gods.

I love Brogenstein and the good job their Thane and his crew are doing.

Svirfneblins are secluded race. They in lore avoid others, are almost secresy society. It is CORE of their race. It is the thing which makes them interesting. It can be hard to play, being secluded, but it is totally not on you to force change on them.

And very same with Elves. They are not humans, neither Dwarves. Mythal allows to elven players to sit in their city and do elven like role play. If mythal was taken away, daily people would run in Myon with goal to kill Elves. Leaving this fact aside, elves being secluded is part of their lore too. There is totally no reason for their players being punished for playing xenophobic characters. And it is not totally on you to decide how others would play their characters.

And i would like you to také note, on the announcement regarding racism IG. And, you, to také it into account and act according to it.


Thanks.

[Miaou]

Integration is conquest.
The human mayor of Borrowhome is the human overlord of the hin.
The human who tears down the mythal to let humans into Myon is the human dictator of Myon.

It's entirely the mindset, goal, of both your character and the other characters. If you have a non-earthkin trying to be active in and around Bendir or Brog, you can most likely get tons of roleplay. If you are trying to get into a spot of leadership, it should be understood that there will be opposition to that. It can be viewed as conquest, or it can be viewed simply as some weird tallie trying to be a hin.

A closed door isn't a bad thing. Being told "no" isn't a bad thing. People can still be inclusive and keep it within reason of the setting.

[Queen Titania]

One of the bonuses of EE is Skal is not really a racial settlement, nor has a settlement system, and so might appeal to you.

On the subject itself, I actually agree with Lorkas very much here.

Bendir is an earthkin village with strong cohesion of alliance to Brogendenstein, allowing opportunities for gnome, dwarf, and of course, halfling characters, with a bit of understandable extra difficulty for the non-hin ones given its more dominant halfling population, but there have been at least four gnome mayors in Bendir, and a couple of dwarven ones. There have been several human/half-orc/elf citizens as well that have lived harmoniously with them. Given Brogendenstein's Strongheart population and Grotto beneath it, it also has the potential for some similiar flavor, if one wanted to flower those seeds with the same possible outsider (Human/Half-orc/Elf) special citizens given patience and continued careful RP, even AFTER they have gain their say, Kuld post.

Speaking of, I believe Myon, despite it's Mythal, has allowed non-elves into their own militia. I do believe there may be ways around the Mythal as well that are FOIG, but not 100% sure.

Essentially, understand that one's racial choice may make some things easier or more difficult, I.E. Tieflings may find outright inhospitable treatments, a hin may get falsely accused of theft, the elf made fun of during their participation in their dwarf's patrol. It's part of the choice. Embrace the tension. And if you find it too frustrating, take a step back. Remember it's just a game.

I'm all for more cohesiveness, but I do think the racial flavor of things shouldn't be lost, especially the tension.

[Irongron]

Changed the name of this topic, is it REALLY made it look like something else was being suggested.

[Twily]

I actually don't mind racism in the Forgotten Realms setting, as some have said it is quite lore accurate.

That said, I do wish there was some more consistency.
To use one genuinely non-specific example, If your elf hates halflings that's fine, but they shouldn't be perfectly okay with a halfling living in Myon(even if it is an NPC with uses). Begrudgingly tolerate sure, but there's plenty of chances to speak up about it/complain even if it is an NPC who ultimately won't be leaving.

In short, PC Racist and Racist are a bit different.
For me, this inconsistency can be a bit immersion breaking and not fun to be on the receiving end of.

[flower]

Sadly, you usually have no rule over NPCs.

Majority of PCs is also not talking to every single NPC they deal with, you could call that also inconsistency...

[Sockss]

this thread is lovely comedy gold

+1

[Miaou]

-words-

Titania says it as I wished to. To add on, suddenly losing a position isn't a bad thing as well. Change in an ongoing story like Arelith is what makes it enjoyable.

Also, there have been non-elves in positions within Myon. Same with every other settlement with racial settings. They have been allowed, removed, snarked at, loved. It's all interaction, and all worth while.

[The GrumpyCat]

I also agree with Titania - though I will also add in that sometimes I do miss the presence of a third 'human/none racial' settlment, such as Wharftown provided. Whilst I'm not neccesarly in favour of returning wharftown, if one day a new settlment is added to the server... (If numbers allow it) It would be nice if it were a racially open settlment i think.

[cptcuddlepants]

The main issue I have with the “hatred between the races is good!” thing is that it goes to OOC racial hatred waaaaay too often.

For example: I have been told outright that it’ll be a good thing for Myon to turn into a demolition derby/24-hour PvP arena/grind spot, because “elves deserve to be griefed.”

It’s also too often used to just shut down RP entirely. Getting barred from roleplay because you play the “wrong” race happens, refusing to talk to someone IC (and even OOC) happens too. It might fit thematically, but it isn’t really fun to be on the receiving end of.

[DarkDreamer]

This I agree with Grumpy, right now the server is beginning to feel rather closed off regarding races, again I am not the only one to see this, but the other person will be adding in later. Also yes, I agree with Cptcuddlepants very much on his posts too.

[PenguinNinja]

Race has, and always will be a huge part of DnD and FR games in general. It has been stated by Ed Greenwood and other lore writers that racism is prevalent and acceptable in DnD and FR, and that in most cases, races that are feared are done so rightfully, it's not anything like IRL racism, and I feel people put too much of IRL into the game as far as race is concerned.

As for mechanical and social differences between the races, that's... Sort of the point in playing different races. If I want my human to get along with the dwarves/hin/gnomes or something, I will go through roleplaying becoming their friend or ect, but that difference will always be there, that he/she is not an Earthkin. People should not just accept other races offhandedly unless there are precedents to suggest otherwise, if in your backstory or in the lore of the race you're playing.

That said, ignoring someone OOCly, or putting little standing on their roleplay due to their race is not acceptable IMO. A big one (that I personally have encountered) is goblins. People generally view goblins as a joke race, and any member of the species to be indeterminate from other goblins, which is fine ICly, as that's not an unwarranted stance from your characters view, but considering every goblin as a faceless nothing OOCly isn't cool IMO. That said, there was a recent rash when the -1 ECl was announced, of random, faceless goblin characters made simply to grind up and delete, so I can understand that stance in some parts.

[Queen Titania]

The main issue I have with the “hatred between the races is good!” thing is that it goes to OOC racial hatred waaaaay too often.

For example: I have been told outright that it’ll be a good thing for Myon to turn into a demolition derby/24-hour PvP arena/grind spot, because “elves deserve to be griefed.”

It’s also too often used to just shut down RP entirely. Getting barred from roleplay because you play the “wrong” race happens, refusing to talk to someone IC (and even OOC) happens too. It might fit thematically, but it isn’t really fun to be on the receiving end of.

The first part should just be ignored as a baseless statement. I understand the second part a little bit. This is why I am a fan of:

1: New Guldorand update down the road, as it forces Myon to interact with Guldorand with the elf district (IF it sticks around in the final release) and allows a bit of a larger place.
2: Skaal! It's not a runnable town but allows more options, though it would be neat if it became one.
3: Merged Bendir/Brog : Ends the idea of individual racial settlements and allows more cohesiveness, while still keeping a racial settlement. I'm a huge fan of a Big Three Rivalry idea, Myon/Guldorand, Earthkin, Cordor, competing over land like Darrowdeep and resources.
4; If the server gets really big after EE, a New Wharftown, just for more options. I miss Wharftown too.

As general RP advice, if someone shuts down your RP, look for someone that won't. And if you are playing a xenophobic, always allow an opportunity for a narrative to extend a bit. Let the plot happen, rather than crunching down on it right away. You'll find opposition gives your character drive and activity, versus a character that might struggle to find something to do.

[DarkDreamer]

1. I dont think any part of Jadoths statement should be ignored as Baseless, since he speaks fact, not to mention its extremely rude.

2. I look forward to some changes.

[Queen Titania]

1. I dont think any part of Jadoths statement should be ignored as Baseless, since he speaks fact, not to mention its extremely rude.

The below should be regarded as just a silly statement IMO, yes:

"It’ll be a good thing for Myon to turn into a demolition derby/24-hour PvP arena/grind spot, because “elves deserve to be griefed.”

There is a difference between saying something silly OOC that is a poor, if rude, statement, and doing something silly. If it becomes the latter, please report it, and the former, just ignore it unless it gets serious.