Kensai removal of freedom of movement

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Oshido
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Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Oshido » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:58 pm

So, what does this mean exactly?
I am really starting to suffer from class update and change depression lol.
I havnt made a serious toon in months because I keep waiting for things to settle down so that the toon I make has some semblance of the toon I envisioned. I thought for sure at least my Orog Kensai pure Fighter would be safe. For better or worse even this concept has gone through so many changes in the last 4 months.
:evil:

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flower
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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by flower » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:02 pm


JediMindTrix
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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by JediMindTrix » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:20 pm

The constant rebalancing does make it feel like we're playing an open beta. But it's pretty necessary as well

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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Nitro » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:23 pm

I'd recommend playing one of the base classes. Most remain mostly unchanged, or only receive very sporadic balance changes with most of the changes/reworks happening amongst the paths and custom classes.

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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by TimeAdept » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:30 pm

Play a rogue, they never change

:D

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flower
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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by flower » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:33 pm

Nitro wrote:I'd recommend playing one of the base classes. Most remain mostly unchanged, or only receive very sporadic balance changes with most of the changes/reworks happening amongst the paths and custom classes.

...like ranger...? :lol:


They are sadly, boring, and often on receiving side.

But base classes saw numerous changes past month....barbarian, BG, paladin, ranger...

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Dreams
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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Dreams » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:42 pm

Let's be honest though, permanent Freedom of Movement is a ridiculously OP feature. (But you can still find it on various items.)

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Oshido
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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Oshido » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:59 pm

Built a fighter pdn cot, class change. Built a druid, class change. Built a few Kensai builds, spent a reward on an ogre barbarian, class change. Built a ranger, class change. Waited for spellsword to go through the process, built one, class change. I am literally sitting on a stable of mid level toons i am afraid to invest time in lol. Do I love the game?Yes. Do I appreciate the team? Big yes. My pure Fighter orog Kensai had a lot of quirks to work around d, no umd or inevitably saves, no class dips for perks, and never ever felt op for having FOM. Which if it is on items negates the point made above by dreams. Compared to my wild mage the orog is severely under powered.
:evil:

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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Improv » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:41 am

I think rebuilds ought to be allowed to kensai who want to compensate for the loss of FoM.

"Experimental" or no, major class tweaks don't jibe well jibe with the D&D system of slow, linear advancement. It's not really fun to have the character you built legally and with the best information you had at the time made suddenly made worse or even broken. Not that free rebuilds for everyone who's bored ought to be a thing, but with something like this it will at least make the players feel a little more in control.

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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Xuuldar » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:02 am

Built a fighter pdn cot, class change. Built a druid, class change. Built a few Kensai builds, spent a reward on an ogre barbarian, class change. Built a ranger, class change. Waited for spellsword to go through the process, built one, class change. I am literally sitting on a stable of mid level toons i am afraid to invest time in lol. Do I love the game?Yes. Do I appreciate the team? Big yes. My pure Fighter orog Kensai had a lot of quirks to work around d, no umd or inevitably saves, no class dips for perks, and never ever felt op for having FOM. Which if it is on items negates the point made above by dreams. Compared to my wild mage the orog is severely under powered.
heh, my experience is similar. Feylock...nerfed to oblivion and has broken features with no fix in site..still play it occasionally but meh. Favoured soul....let's not go there. Kensai Barbarian, first Kensai got nerfed but had some things added that made it ok even though it was less fun to play..ok...then Barbarian gets ner...err.."balanced" and can't do half what it used to be able to...switch to playing it occasionally....now Kensai gets nerfed to uselessness. Made a DS druid.....nerfed far past the point it makes sense to continue. started playing a Kensai F/WM/DD, figured if Barbarian was remade as a bursty WM...I might as well play a WM....DD breaks...no fix in sight....now Kensai nerfed. Goblin druid for some fast leveling fun.....goblins nerfed... druids changed....Wizard....not nerfed but so many changes have happened that make playing the current path I was on less attractive. Oh and Artefacts killed which, though I had none of the crazy good OP ones, several of my characters had an artefact that my gear was kinda built around so to play any of them I would first have to fix their gear. So I am down to a Cleric that I like but was an early character so wasn't really quite built right and a TF that I absolutely love but can't do anything at all by itself. I find myself disheartened and afraid to play anything. I contemplate just rolling most of them for multiple chances at a major but then think "what the heck would I do with a reward??" cause I would be super upset if I blow a major or even greater on a character that ends up screwed by a nerf. I guess it's either time for a break till the dust settles and EE is out or make a Rogue since there is no where to go but up for them LOL

Xuuldar
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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Xuuldar » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:05 am

I think rebuilds ought to be allowed to kensai who want to compensate for the loss of FoM.
Not even sure it would need a rebuild but maybe a couple NPCs could be added to the world where you could talk to one of them and they could remove the Kensai stink. Like re-attune you to magic stripping you of Kensai. That would be cool.

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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Freyason » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:54 am

If you were building a pure fighter today you wouldnt make him a kensai?

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Dreams
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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Dreams » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:50 am

Having FoM or not doesn't change how you would build a kensai character though.

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Lorkas
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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Lorkas » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:35 am

Xuuldar wrote:
I think rebuilds ought to be allowed to kensai who want to compensate for the loss of FoM.
Not even sure it would need a rebuild but maybe a couple NPCs could be added to the world where you could talk to one of them and they could remove the Kensai stink. Like re-attune you to magic stripping you of Kensai. That would be cool.
The big problem here is that kensai is a big boon in early levels and becomes more of a liability in later levels. It can't really work as a path if it's something you can remove--the whole point is trading faster early progression for a lower power ceiling later.

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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Ebonstar » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:02 am

Dreams wrote:Having FoM or not doesn't change how you would build a kensai character though.
actually it does after the perma haste and disc bonus were removed. it took a char who was fast but not monk fast and very hard to knockdown to a character not as fast but could spot things a little better while still keeping a swiftness of foot being immune to tangle slow and the rest from FOM. now this drops nothing to even attempt to replace it.

so now you have a melee base built for utilizing permahaste with the attacks and ac and FOM reduced to a melee base that is still in under tenth level can be salvaged into something else.
Mine for Instance is sitting at 24th three classes chosen all used for before the nerfs that now has huge holes in how and who the char had been played and evolved to current.

so yes this does change how a kensai is built or has been built to basically making him an unplayable mess
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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Terenfel » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:59 am

i know the feeling. was just starting to play a kensai barbarian, did not loss much for taking kensai as i would not take UMD on him anyway as it does not suit the character koncept.. but anyway, i was also like i lost 5 damage out of rage and around 10 damage in rage from this update, looks like a lot, but then again, getting 2d10+6 damage from just being a level 12 barbarian was kinda high, now i get +8 damage on top of being a Strenght based beef, +8 damage is still kinda high for a 12 level karakter really.. he still has 250 HP.. in level 12?! so rage gives 125 Temp HP!.

so what used to be a overpowered unstoppable killing machine.. is now just a killing machine, still fun to play, but yes, no longer clearly outshines everyone else he parties with, still better then everyone i met so far, but not as far ahead as before..

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Dreams
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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Dreams » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:31 am

Ebonstar wrote:
Dreams wrote:Having FoM or not doesn't change how you would build a kensai character though.
actually it does after the perma haste and disc bonus were removed. it took a char who was fast but not monk fast and very hard to knockdown to a character not as fast but could spot things a little better while still keeping a swiftness of foot being immune to tangle slow and the rest from FOM. now this drops nothing to even attempt to replace it.

so now you have a melee base built for utilizing permahaste with the attacks and ac and FOM reduced to a melee base that is still in under tenth level can be salvaged into something else.
Mine for Instance is sitting at 24th three classes chosen all used for before the nerfs that now has huge holes in how and who the char had been played and evolved to current.

so yes this does change how a kensai is built or has been built to basically making him an unplayable mess
I disagree. I think the main draw to Kensai after the rework is really the bonus APR which can still be taken advantage of to do some amazing damage and fulfill the niche that Kensai has. And the absolutely amazing thing that Kensai still has is: access to haste. It stacks with all the goodies.

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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by flower » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:56 am

Dreams wrote:Having FoM or not doesn't change how you would build a kensai character though.
This is very bold statement when many people built it without reflex save, as clarity + FoM cancelled out many disable spells. Now they are left with sucking saves without ability to use FoM on themselves trough items.

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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Twily » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:10 am

What I've always liked about Kensai was that it didn't need to prepare.

It was a warrior that could be ready to go instantaneously. This was fitting for the lore of the class, an almost monk-like warrior class. (somewhere between monks, fighters and weapon masters).

After the first Kensai change, this became a bit less so. They became more reliant on wards than they were before, as without wards their AC, Discipline and Movement speed were all lower than they previous were. People called it terrible as it was before, and if you're unwarded, you became worse than the terrible everyone called it. (Sure the peak was stronger than it was before, but the minimum was lower; It was a trade off)

This newest update only further pushes Kensai away from it's roots as a path that allows you to be ready to go all the time.
There are so many things that can lead to a kensai's death now, that they didn't have to worry about before.
One such example, FoM makes the user immune to heavily encumbered speed, this saved me so much time, and saved me from multiple deaths after being pegged by Crippling Strikes, Strength traps, NegEnergyBursts, or Rest/Thirst/Hunger debuffs mid-fight.
A few more examples off the top of my head, creatures that shoot paralysis touch attacks, entangle touch attacks, death attacks, and slow traps.

All of these may have counters in their own ways, but not having to worry about these things was nice, for me, this lack of worry is what made the path still worth it.

Things like the movement speed of the original kensai and Freedom of Movement made playing a dex based, pure fighter, without uncanny dodge, actually viable. I had the speed needed to escape from PvE and heal when my health was getting dangerous. The current state of Kensai does little to make such builds viable.


TL;DR/Conclusion
I ultimately feel like the class has changed from its root as an almost monk-like warrior path that is always ready for action, to simply being an alternative to multi-classing a UMD class(which I will admit is a good thing to have, I personally just wish it were added as a different path, rather than a change to the existing one).


I do appreciate the effort the devs put into making changes, but this one does confuse me greatly. I wish I could understand the devs view on why the change was made and what they envision a kensai being.

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Oshido
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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Oshido » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:23 pm

What Twily said x2. Any toon can be played after any update regardless of bane or boon. I'm not sure why we pretend like everyone is so fluid with our build progression that things like this shouldn't matter, if you were a better builder or player being insinuated. Again. What Twilly said x2.
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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Jack Oat » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:00 pm

You argued that right after they got their buff the first time, Twily. It held just as little weight/validation as before. Kensai was a trap class that sounded good in theory but was actually trash in any upper-level engagement, easily thwarted with simple tactics like darkness, Word of Faith, or invisibility. Then they got good. I understand you don't like preparing. That's fine, play a Palemaster. You press one button and are good to go. The way the class is set up now though, it actually can be a feasible option in even higher-tier PvP and Epic dungeons, instead of a detriment to the party.

Let me say it again, but slower: the Kensai changes are a good thing. The removal of Freedom of Movement is also good, because there was no reason or consequence for them to have it. From my understanding Freedom of Movement potions will soon be added into the game, allowing Kensai to have the same counter-play options that other builds have. This means that they will still be good.


As for Oshido and your comments about making chars, the base classes getting changed, and then moving on to something else, that's kind of on you. The recent class changes haven't been that debilitating unless you were going for a Dragonshape Monk/Druid, in which case I have zero sympathy for you because that build is cancer. Barbarian lost a few damage points, but is still quite viable. Ranger got buffed, and is also fairly viable. Spellsword lost a couple of AB, some dispel DC (which was there for ??? reason to begin with), and the Fire imbue got a bit nerfed because it was silly, but it's still fairly potent, and definitely viable. PDK should never have been released in the state it first was, and the nerfs were a good thing. Also, still viable.

You say that you played a pureclass fighter and never felt OP for having freedom, and that's fine, but that's also your class decision. If you had played a fighter/Weaponmaster with perma-freedom and all the Kensai bonuses, or some other class decision that was fairly heavy-hitting, you may have felt differently. Or not. Maybe it'd take you being on the receiving end to feel that way.


All in all, the complaints being voiced here don't seem particularly valid when the number-crunching comes down and the high-tier character/class combos come into play. Instead of viewing it as "Oh no they're nerfing my suboptimal build," look at it as "Oh good they're keeping someone from steamrolling an entire faction/city/server with a broken build." Because that's what the changes are made for, to keep people able to play with relative enjoyment without some overpowered numpty (thanks Nekonecro) piledriving the entirety of Cordor John Cena style.

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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:36 pm

There are so many standard builds that were viable 10 years ago and remain to be viable now. Arguably, if you look at what classes have been balanced and tweaked the most, are classes that have previously been tampered with heavily (barbarians, warlocks, kensai, etc.)
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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Scurvy Cur » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:49 pm

And that's natural.

Basically, there are two approaches we could take to balancing the server.

The first is to never introduce new content, essentially focusing on tinkering with existing classes. This carries a pretty low risk of creating something that's unhealthy for the server, but is restrictive from a design standpoint.

The second is to introduce new content, but update it as needed. Sometimes, balance changes that looked good on paper won't be so good in practice. Sometimes, we'll overestimate how badly a class or path needs to be buffed, and the buff we give them will be too significant. Sometimes we'll introduce something that is too weak because there's a worry about introducing a new class that's drastically OP. In all of these cases, it's necessary that the team retain the ability to aggressively adjust mechanics as needed.

We've consciously decided that it's better to introduce new stuff that's imperfect and subject to rapid change than it is to restrict the team to tinkering with existing content. As a result, we'll miss the mark now and then when we release new content. This was done with Kensai, which were significantly buffed because old Kensai were bad.

They were given 1 apr that stacks with haste to give them a buff that is unique to the path (Old Kensai were plagued by the fact that other classes could replace their main class feature easily). They were given +6 saves vs spells to help ameliorate their lack of access to death ward, FoM, and mind blank. They were given access to clarity and other potions because these are such staples of gearing and running any melee class that lack of access seriously hurt their viability. They were given +2 AC to compensate, basically, for the bonus AC that would be gained from using a barkskin wand instead of a potion, plus the 1 dodge AC given from mage armor. They were given perma freedom because the guy doing the Kensai buff was worried that they still didn't have enough.

In retrospect, that last element was probably not needed to make the path good, and so has been removed.

Regarding the team's vision for Kensai: Twilly actually got it exactly. The intent is to make available an optional playstyle for melee characters that isn't reliant on wands; making this style viable in a fashion that doesn't completely replace the advantages that going for UMD offers. We think we overshot that mark with perma freedom.


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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by StompyKobold » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:04 pm

Just have to say, this really doesn't change the power level of Kensai that much, just makes them burdensome to play.

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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Twily » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:20 pm

You argued that right after they got their buff the first time, Twily. It held just as little weight/validation as before. Kensai was a trap class that sounded good in theory but was actually trash in any upper-level engagement, easily thwarted with simple tactics like darkness, Word of Faith, or invisibility.
Let me say it again, but slower: the Kensai changes are a good thing.
Opinions are not fact, and you're stating them as a fact. (and also directly saying my opinion is invalid.)

To you, kensai was a trap path that became trash in upper levels, to me it was a path that could let me solo all of Minarous, bosses included, without a single buff.
The point being everyone has different experiences, playstyles and builds, which inevitably results in different people having different opinions.
Just because one player's experience was it being bad, doesn't mean it was always bad. And just because one player's experience was it being great, doesn't mean it was always great.


My only point in the present, is that kensai is becoming more and more reliant on magical buffs to get through places.
This is what many, myself included, liked about the original kensai, and to an extent the current kensai before freedom was removed.
Wards, potions, wands, etc, were all un/less-necessary for the character to get by. This reduction in items needed and micromanaging was something I, and others, enjoyed.

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