Kensai removal of freedom of movement

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Ebonstar
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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Ebonstar » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:27 pm

Scurvy Cur wrote:And that's natural.



They were given 1 apr that stacks with haste to give them a buff that is unique to the path (Old Kensai were plagued by the fact that other classes could replace their main class feature easily). They were given +6 saves vs spells to help ameliorate their lack of access to death ward, FoM, and mind blank. They were given access to clarity and other potions because these are such staples of gearing and running any melee class that lack of access seriously hurt their viability. They were given +2 AC to compensate, basically, for the bonus AC that would be gained from using a barkskin wand instead of a potion, plus the 1 dodge AC given from mage armor. They were given perma freedom because the guy doing the Kensai buff was worried that they still didn't have enough.

... with perma freedom.
the trouble with these two additions were this imo... your looking at this save bonus which only happens once a char hits level 30, the time for progression seems forgotten when you dont have +6 saves vs spells, the +2 ac to compensate forgets that removing the permahaste drops your AC by 2 so thats no compensation it simply means your slower you lose the disc bonus and now have to rely on having a caster haste you. And the statement of kensai with permahaste being slower than hasted party members I had found never came to play because the Kensai was your melee beast in the front and noone who wasnt scouting wanted to run out from to far.

I think the biggest problem is when these changes are made your only balancing on what will exist at level 30. thats great but what about all the time spent prior. Not everyone rushes to level 30.

sometimes balance changes effect those who are not rushing the levels to get to 30, but take more time and invest in the growth and evolution of the character and that is where these things hurt the most.
my char plan was F WM Kensai on creation before any of the recent changes, speed and beyond. this gave me plenty of leeway for my third class if i even took one, which i did with CoT, but the point is it wasnt all set down on paper to level 30 on creation, and these balance points while good for some have totally wreaked havoc with mine, and a few others im guessing who just shelved of deleted and moved on
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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Cortex » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:28 pm

Kensai are actually a lot stronger than most of their peers on the road to 30.
:)

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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Ebonstar » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:30 pm

maybe get some players who play kensai alot in the past in a chat with the dev who is working on it sort of like we are with EE and make it so everyone is included for input, then everyone can be happy with a concensus and not just here ya go
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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Ebonstar » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:32 pm

Cortex wrote:Kensai are actually a lot stronger than most of their peers on the road to 30.
Cortex i understand your logic behind it, but not everyone wants to play a magic reliant melee. I for one always loved Kensai because most people saw whoa no magic heck no not playing that, where I saw it as heck yeah i can make a quick footed battle beast designed to break through and kill mages hiding in the back
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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by BegoneThoth » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:37 pm

Losing things like time stop and word of faith no longer offsets kensai, it was already a tough sell but losing fight winning buttons and gaining so little killed the class for me, personally.
\

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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Scurvy Cur » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:00 pm

Ebonstar wrote:maybe get some players who play kensai alot in the past in a chat with the dev who is working on it sort of like we are with EE and make it so everyone is included for input, then everyone can be happy with a concensus and not just here ya go
We call that routine kensai player Cortex.


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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Ebonstar » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:02 pm

well I posted in the suggestion box as well, but im sure we can get everyone together for a sit down with Cortex so maybe we can find something that keeps the masses happy
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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Cortex » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:07 pm

i dont speak for all kensai players

but i speak for kensai

kensai says he wants fom pot

literally all it needs
:)

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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by flower » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:39 pm

Cortex wrote:i dont speak for all kensai players

but i speak for kensai

kensai says he wants fom pot

literally all it needs

Just with some decent duration not only few rounds, please.

:D

Already fell victim to the change. Suddenly found out Hamatuli devils spam hold person and had the pleasure to roll twice 1 on save :|

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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Astral » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:01 pm

flower wrote:
Cortex wrote:i dont speak for all kensai players

but i speak for kensai

kensai says he wants fom pot

literally all it needs

Just with some decent duration not only few rounds, please.

:D

Already fell victim to the change. Suddenly found out Hamatuli devils spam hold person and had the pleasure to roll twice 1 on save :|
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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by dallion43 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:16 pm

Doesn't kensai can use clarity, remove paralysis and haste potions?
Or there is mass entangle lowers around? )

Seriously, free Apr max ab adds around 20% damage to any melee, +6 saves plus spellcraft +a bit of item unisaves can and should get your saves kinda high, if they get all relevant pots available aren't every WM will marry them after the TS nerf..or I missed something?:p

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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Mithreas » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:15 am

There's a lot of understandable frustration here - two themes emerge.

Firstly, there have been a lot of mechanical changes in a short period of time to some characters. Barbarian Kensai in particular, since both class and path have had a lot of work recently. This is really feedback to the development team about pace of change and communication (e.g. in the past, where I was unhappy with the balance of something, I made it widely known that I was looking at changing something so that expectations were set well before the changes happened - though I would rarely trail details in advance, since they wouldn't be finalised until the change was ready to go). None of us have time for big interactive sessions, but something simple like maintaining a watchlist of game features that you aren't happy with can go a long way, especially when you've made changes and something still needs to be on the list.

Secondly, there is a bunch of feedback around "what does kensai stand for now". Twily quite accurately summarised my original intent for kensai - a warrior who does not and cannot use buffs (simple anti magic RP), who is ready to go immediately at a decent level of effectiveness but who cannot reach the peaks of classes that use buffs. From a playstyle perspective, it was a way to play a very simplified version of Arelith combat, for players who don't enjoy or embrace the tactical combat nature of NWN's mechanics, and would rather not have to learn to get good at it.

I have a lot of sympathy for the view that the "new kensai" no longer caters to that group of players.

It's been said over and over again (most often by Hunter :)) that the original kensai was a trap path. For anyone willing to spend time learning how to work the combat system better, that has always been true. But there have always been players who have no interest in combat mechanics and no appetite for maximising their combat effectiveness - those players are poorly served by the ability to (say) take Clarity potions right before fighting a creature that sometimes throws out Hold spells.

The new kensai, even without FoM, is objectively better as a NWN combat class/path. However, it has also moved away from the no-magic theme (potions are buffs, they even have the same VFX as the equivalent spells) and become more complex to play, getting rid of the ultra-simple option for those who enjoyed being able to ignore most of NWN's combat mechanics and wanted to purely focus on roleplay and exploration. (The addition of mundane items for healing and effect removal, OTOH, was a great example of working with the theme to deal with some of bigger viability problems of the path).

Hence, the strong reaction is understandable.
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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by susitsu » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:39 am

flower wrote:
Dreams wrote:Having FoM or not doesn't change how you would build a kensai character though.
This is very bold statement when many people built it without reflex save, as clarity + FoM cancelled out many disable spells. Now they are left with sucking saves without ability to use FoM on themselves trough items.
people build non-kensais without what you're referring to as "reflex save." I assume you mean "the spare human feat that always becomes power-attack."

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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Tarkus the dog » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:50 am

It is not that bad, really. CoT for example? It gives you extra saves, and recently-...

...oh.

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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Barradoor » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:06 am

Mithreas wrote: get good
/Thread
Mithreas wrote:get good
eters wrote:I will try to resonate with you in a way you can understand
Peppermint wrote:if Barradoor is the voice of reason you know things have taken a horrible turn
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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Mithreas » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:12 am

ROTFL
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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by King_Of_Aquilonia » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:20 am

so... if freedom of movement is getting removed from kensai... am I entitled to a free rebuild for Gallows? It's not worth it without it

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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Lorkas » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:45 am

Entitled? No.

There may be rebuilds or there may not, but entitlement is a bad starting point for a conversation about that.

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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Cyanide_bullet » Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:29 am

Too many changes are being applied too quickly. Ive already shelved my mage because the runesystem disrupted its rp. Now im gonna shelve my orog pure fighter that i made back when it got perm haste and fom because it is nothing like it used to be. To be honest, it seems all these changes are made with the focus of lvl30 builds and Balanced around that. Im giving up on arelith, used to be that what you made you would have untill you yourself decided to roll or shelve it.

The fun has been removed, and i dont have the time to make a new char every 2-3months. The devs really need to look over the development process, it has come to a point that its hard to find information on the wiki because the changes happen quicker than the wiki updates.

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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Freyason » Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:33 am

Cyanide_bullet wrote:Ive already shelved my mage because the runesystem disrupted its rp.
Could you please elaborate on this? My curiosity is killing me and I might not be able to fall asleep cos I keep coming up with theories.

Was he an artifact dealer?

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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Barradoor » Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:37 am

Mithreas wrote:get good
eters wrote:I will try to resonate with you in a way you can understand
Peppermint wrote:if Barradoor is the voice of reason you know things have taken a horrible turn
Barradoor wrote:
!!HIGH LEVEL MECHANICS BELOW!!

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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by dallion43 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:14 am

Cyanide_bullet wrote:Too many changes are being applied too quickly. Ive already shelved my mage because the runesystem disrupted its rp. Now im gonna shelve my orog pure fighter that i made back when it got perm haste and fom because it is nothing like it used to be. To be honest, it seems all these changes are made with the focus of lvl30 builds and Balanced around that. Im giving up on arelith, used to be that what you made you would have untill you yourself decided to roll or shelve it.
You can't really balance different build concepts lvl by lvl. It is already not easy to balance right on lvl 30, not to mention that most builds have *roles*. Even trying will hurt variety and uniqueness immensely.

Shelving a PC due to RP is..eee..can't you just RP change of its powers due to X God or whatever? RP comes out of interactions PC creates with others.. not that I am a big expert :p.
Shelving/remaking due to miscalculated 1 SP on lvl 30 or due to mechanical change making your PC 98% optimal instead of 100% is nothing new to numbers people :p.
I shelved 3 characters until now on Arelith due to changes so I completely get the feeling but same changes allowed for new mechanical and surprisingly fresh RP options for new PCs.

Regardless, changes, even rapid, are better then stagnation when it comes to NwN shards.

Imho, of course.

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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by CragOrion » Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:21 pm

Are Kensei not still supposed to be immune to slow? Mine just got hit with it

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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by Hunter548 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:22 pm

No, they're not. That's what "Permanent Freedom Removed" means.
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Re: Kensai removal of freedom of movement

Post by RedGiant » Sun Jan 07, 2018 9:21 pm

Though some of mine are irretrievably broken, I would be happy with the class again if it shifted the skill back to discipline. Making them worse against melee characters and enhanced against stealth-based characters is one of the most confusing aspects of the current configuration. I think the former made perfect sense with the concept of a "sword saint", the latter not so much. Thus my high school guidance counselor jokes, because why should they be good at listening???
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