Spellsword - 4 APR?

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Spellsword - 4 APR?

Postby CookieMonster » Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:43 pm

I am not so much crying, but rather curious about the balance of this.

A Spellsword as far as I am aware (Haven't played one or really met one yet) has all the potential of a Melee Build and a Mage build crammed together. Getting similar if not greater AC than most classes as well as a similar AB. But they also possess the ability to cast all of their Magic to devastating effect whilst also retaining so awesome on hit effects.

The class seems to be better than a caster because they don't have the weakness of getting melee stomped and they are better than a normal melee class as they are able to do all caster stuff.

They just seem a little, excessive?
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Re: Spellsword - 4 APR?

Postby flower » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:04 pm

I agree with you. Ability to část several powerful spells with no save (IGMs) and other along with melee capabilities is a bit beyond linie.

But i do not wish spellsword to go, i would prefer instead to add items for typical classes like fighter to buff them.

The adamantite platemail seems very outdated as top gear, for example. I'd like to see more new items outclassing these and tied to high level of fighter / other melee class to make it impossible for spellsword for use (and thus even both things out).
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Re: Spellsword - 4 APR?

Postby Nitro » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:41 pm

Well, they're still a 3/4 BAB class, and they're completely locked out from all summoning and epic spells (bar EMA), so as a caster they're a lot worse. They are also very reliant on their buffs, and given you want access to both tumble/UMD, as well as a full BAB dip for 4APR, they'll end up vulnerable to dispels from dedicated classes.

So in short, a dedicated melee outdoes them in melee, a dedicated mage outdoes them at casting. I'd say they're in a pretty good spot right now, comparable to a cleric or perhaps a little worse.
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Re: Spellsword - 4 APR?

Postby flower » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:50 pm

Nitro wrote:Well, they're still a 3/4 BAB class, and they're completely locked out from all summoning and epic spells (bar EMA), so as a caster they're a lot worse. They are also very reliant on their buffs, and given you want access to both tumble/UMD, as well as a full BAB dip for 4APR, they'll end up vulnerable to dispels from dedicated classes.

So in short, a dedicated melee outdoes them in melee, a dedicated mage outdoes them at casting. I'd say they're in a pretty good spot right now, comparable to a cleric or perhaps a little worse.



Imho actually cleric (melee oriented) is much easier to be dispelled. Cannot afford feats (arcane defense ABJ), does not get bonus against dispels, and once dispelled cleric's powers are really falling apart. Spellsword can still ditch out offensive spells, which use no save or when saving is not that much helping you.
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Re: Spellsword - 4 APR?

Postby Nitro » Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:59 pm

A cleric on the other hand, gets some heavy utility, Greater Restoration, WoF, Divine Power etc. As well as access to high-tier summons for easy PvE clearing. And not to forget, access to epic spells which in themselves add a lot of power.
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Re: Spellsword - 4 APR?

Postby yellowcateyes » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:06 pm

Getting 4 APR with a Spellsword currently entails the same method of gaining 4 APR with any other hybrid class - having 4 levels in a high BAB class prior to level 20.

The impact of the change is largely in build composition. That is to say, you'll see fewer spellswords going over 23 wizard levels. Instead, 4 fighter levels pre-epic and perhaps more in epic for EWS will become standard for non-monk SS.

Making Spellsword compatible with monk UBAB actually might have been too big of a buff. This is being investigated.
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Re: Spellsword - 4 APR?

Postby yellowcateyes » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:16 pm

Also, any claim that Spellswords are merely lesser clerics should be taken with a grain of salt.
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Re: Spellsword - 4 APR?

Postby Opustus » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:31 pm

Spellswords have vastly superior offensive spells compared to Clerks, but they generally deal less damage in melee with a lower AB, making them a less offensive meleer. They reach equal or higher defensive stats on average, though.

Imagine Spellsword27/Bard3 for the purposes of this exercise.

The interesting part, for me, is balancing between melee and spellcasting. While Clerks tend to go melee over spellcasting, I would personally favour spellcasting over melee with Spellswords. As a Spellsword, you can supply the Summon as yourself without investing at all into melee feats and stats in levelups. You will survive PvM, even if it might be slow. The panther familiar might be of use here, because you can actually protect it with smart summon maneuvering (god bless the creators of Tool1).

In PvP, however, you will have more AC, Uncanny Dodge, more Discipline and +3 CL against dispel. This is so good for a caster who wants to play it safe! The trade-off is losing one spell school, losing the ability to summon (not sure if Golemcraft is affected), and losing the flavourful and useful epic spell commands.
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Re: Spellsword - 4 APR?

Postby Weerd » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:42 pm

Filthy unpure sword wielding traitors.
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Re: Spellsword - 4 APR?

Postby One Two Three Five » Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:15 pm

Making Spellsword compatible with monk UBAB actually might have been too big of a buff. This is being investigated.

A theoretical dual kama quadruple imbued 10 APR spellsword/[full bab class]/monk will do some, ah, hefty damage, but I'm not sure if it's more or less than the rogue/monk/fighter or like, a WM.

Otherwise: I really do think they're fine. They're pretty good, but summons (conj and necro) are... real good here right now. If you haven't played a conjurer in a while just, trust me. They're real good. One-click leveling into epic good. Losing that hurts on a spellsword and has been my main obstacle to leveling more than one past six or so. They spend the vast majority of their career as a Not Great Cleric, tbh, and the only 'vastly superior' offensive spell they have is IGMS since you want something saveless if you only have 19 int or so base.

Also, they can't GRuin/Hellball/IGMS Spam people like a normal wizard can, which is automatically a tier drop for me.
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Re: Spellsword - 4 APR?

Postby yellowcateyes » Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:58 pm

Without dismissing anyone's particular experience, I have found that leveling a Spellsword has been supremely easy from one to epics. I am curious about the kind of setup being used that leads to roadblocks in the low levels, as personal experience and observing in-game behaviors has led me to see Spellsword leveling as fairly trivial.
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Re: Spellsword - 4 APR?

Postby One Two Three Five » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:05 pm

I usually just play casters. My last 'quick leveling' char was a druid back before companions got reverted, though, so leveling a melee might be easier than I'm feeling. Negative imbue is hilariously good for pve, though.
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Re: Spellsword - 4 APR?

Postby Scurvy Cur » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:08 pm

I'll go a step further and ask what the heck anyone that's having trouble levelling one of these has been doing.

They're effortlessly easy to cruise through content on.
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Re: Spellsword - 4 APR?

Postby One Two Three Five » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:20 pm

Uhhhh. Dex-based, negative imbue, short sword because I was being a baby about rapiers. Didn't feel like I did much damage for a long while. I'll grant you, I never died. Or really dipped below 50%. You know what? They're fine, I might've just been nitpicky from druids and strengthers.
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Re: Spellsword - 4 APR?

Postby Scurvy Cur » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:22 pm

Both dex and str variants are easy for different reasons. The dex variant has so much AC and lifesteal that they slowly chew through everything and never actually lose HP.

Strength variants are a little chancier, but they also start dishing 80+ damage crits by like level 6, and can work their way though the awkward pre-15 lowish AC stages by hitting areas where ghostly visage is superb and nothing has blindfight, which they clear very, very fast.
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Re: Spellsword - 4 APR?

Postby Improv » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:56 pm

I've only dabbled so far but, at the beginning you just can't overreach too much. Having conjuration focuses does spoil you at level 3 on other casters and you have to choose your battles a little bit more.

Really, Spellswords seems like a quirky class that favors deep Arelith knowledge. Knowing which enemies to fight and when makes a big difference.
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Re: Spellsword - 4 APR?

Postby Dr_Hazard89 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:34 am

flower wrote:I agree with you. Ability to část several powerful spells with no save (IGMs) and other along with melee capabilities is a bit beyond linie.

But i do not wish spellsword to go, i would prefer instead to add items for typical classes like fighter to buff them.

The adamantite platemail seems very outdated as top gear, for example. I'd like to see more new items outclassing these and tied to high level of fighter / other melee class to make it impossible for spellsword for use (and thus even both things out).


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Re: Spellsword - 4 APR?

Postby flower » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:30 pm

Dr_Hazard89 wrote:
flower wrote:I agree with you. Ability to část several powerful spells with no save (IGMs) and other along with melee capabilities is a bit beyond linie.

But i do not wish spellsword to go, i would prefer instead to add items for typical classes like fighter to buff them.

The adamantite platemail seems very outdated as top gear, for example. I'd like to see more new items outclassing these and tied to high level of fighter / other melee class to make it impossible for spellsword for use (and thus even both things out).


The last thing we need is more powercreep.



It happens with each new path and or update. I see no reason why mundane should be left lagging behind spellcasters with abilitity to fight.
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Re: Spellsword - 4 APR?

Postby CookieMonster » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:47 pm

You fail to see the point. This isn't a "Give a boost to Fighters and Rogues so they can be better than other classes" thread.

This is feedback on Spellswords as they currently stand. That they are a little bit to powerful for what they are intended to be Mechancically and RP Wise, they need to be balanced. Not just overlooking them with the notion of "Let's make EVERYTHING that powerful."
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Re: Spellsword - 4 APR?

Postby Wytchee » Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:37 pm

Nitro wrote:Well, they're still a 3/4 BAB class, and they're completely locked out from all summoning and epic spells (bar EMA), so as a caster they're a lot worse. They are also very reliant on their buffs, and given you want access to both tumble/UMD, as well as a full BAB dip for 4APR, they'll end up vulnerable to dispels from dedicated classes.

So in short, a dedicated melee outdoes them in melee, a dedicated mage outdoes them at casting. I'd say they're in a pretty good spot right now, comparable to a cleric or perhaps a little worse.


They also have very few spellslots if you build for strength or dexterity.
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Re: Spellsword - 4 APR?

Postby Sockss » Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:27 pm

A moderate base score of 20, with +12 bonus, compared to 26, with +12 bonus is one extra spell of circles 1/2/4/5/6/8/9.

It's not that much less. Not to mention spellswords excel in the nuke meta with a combination of high base damage, high spike damage (In combination with blackstaff, espescially) and exceptional AC.

I don't think the comparison to a battlecleric is paticularly fair. They're superior. They require significantly less wind up time and don't have the dispel weakness.

Spellswords are definitely top tier right now.
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Re: Spellsword - 4 APR?

Postby Ork » Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:48 pm

Clerics had their reign.
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Re: Spellsword - 4 APR?

Postby CookieMonster » Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:56 pm

Ork wrote:Clerics had their reign.


But how does this nerf Clerics?
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Re: Spellsword - 4 APR?

Postby greatfanfare » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:11 pm

My Character Without focus in Abjuration casts Greater Dispelling
Dispel Magic : Name of Spellsword : Haste, Premonition, Cat's Grace, Camouflage, Mass Camouflage


I've not yet tried spellswords, but it seems that If you want to be undispellable, you have to give up something.
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Re: Spellsword - 4 APR?

Postby Sailormoon~s No1 Fan » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:14 pm

I currently play a Spellsword and my character before that a battle priest. While my priest had to cast certain buffs to maintain damage she had a much easier time soloing with greater conj and other perks. My Sb is having trouble soloing altogether. Epic bosses are a breeze with a dragon.

I have no knowledge of how either fair in pvp! If I wasn't so invested in my current Spellblades rp, I'd go back to my battlepriest in a breath.
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