Artifact removal discussion.

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nobs3
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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by nobs3 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:51 am

greatfanfare wrote:
nobs3 wrote:
greatfanfare wrote:Awww... the object with X charges of Z it's done already, ...
Dont think you can compare a portable portal to a ring of Ghostly Visage... have you read the suggestions?
I did, and my post stands, many more "1 use/day" or "x uses until it breaks" doesn't provide an incentive for high epic.
One of the best quests I did with an charcater of mine was placing a DM item next to Bendir that did spawn endless undeads and caused a big mess and provided much fun for plenty of players.
For some players this could be a higher incentive than some better statts.
And it would have positive side effects if its used well. You would just have to think about good ways to use that items. (And maybe invite others to join the fun.)

I watched characters (several) that did one artefact hunt after the other (for many months now) just looking for that one single object (special armor, special skill boost ...). Maybe there could be more that gives lvl 30s a reason to go out adventuring. What about gaining fame?

Still I also think there might be a mixture of all of this. Empic runic items. Dev/DM made items. Special single use potion "Luck" (next crafting or enchanting role will be a 20) or nice rp items that grants you the power to interfere into the environment... or even to shake the server a bit.

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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by StumpyParagon » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:29 am

I don't agree with removing ail artifacts for a lot of us its not a bandage that's ripped off but a stab in the coin pouch. I have a +4 ac belt so I enchanted a helmet. Now if you remove the belt. Not only is my belt gone but I have to unfairly enchant a new belt.. and buy a new helmet? It's just a recipe for absolute grief.

When you got an artifact you tended to have to purchase and enchant around having that. Sacrificing in a lot of cases skills and more.

By removing that item you mess up the gear selection we invested in. This is not as simple a situation as 'hah remove them they are op.' It's so much more complicated than most people seem to be realising and my example is probably the cheapest out there.

A +4 str item? That player has to replace 4 items to make up for it.

It's potentially devastating to people's enthusiasm to keep playing a character that your hard work has been gutted.

I favour the see over time the fade of artifacts option

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Tarkus the dog
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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by Tarkus the dog » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:25 am

Honesty being one of the traits I value the most, I'm going to pour some of it in my post and hope that community doesn't hang me for it:

I have been avoiding posting serious posts in the OOC section for some time now for a few reasons most people can figure out on their own, but seeing as artifacts are the latest trend and they are one of the major reasons why I have been playing this game for this long - I feel compelled to make a post about it and hope that somebody takes notice, seeing as if the team decides to remove them entirely it may led to me quitting ( which I would hate to do, for a few reasons that now with the EE update involve other people ) or to find other reasons to play.

But yes, it is true. Getting the best artifacts or equipment has been one of the major OOC 'goals' in the game for me for some time now, and believe it or not it led to some interesting roleplay paths that my character ended up regret taking later on. This is because having played it non-stop I quickly grew bored of the server and I needed something 'new' to become a good chunk of my motivation to play. I understand that each and every one of us has a reason for playing this game, and this has been one of mine. Past term, because I have a character that is stacked on them and "artifact hunting" has lost it's charm for obvious reasons. In comparison to most players, I have not been playing Arelith for that long. Meager two years, or a year and 11 months to be exact. The problem is that I have been playing it constantly, until recently where most of the people I have played with decided to focus on other things or to leave the place ( and with the school being a thing now ) I can't really play as often as before, and I have little will left( for the reasons I just started + all the new updates that are making Arelith's future very uncertain ). And thus, I have seen much of the content. Both the IC and the OOC, the good and the bad. And the ugly. It's no surprise that a game loses it's 'touch' over time, especially if you grind the hell out of it and I have reached that point in meager two years. It may also be that I'm not creative enough and that I play similar characters with similar ideas, goals, personalities and wishes - or it may be something entirely else, but it is what it is. The current character that I play I do enjoy, and I do not feel like rolling her any time soon or if ever. Every time I would get something done, it always feels as if 'that is not it'. As if it's just a smaller part of a larger story that I haven't even discovered yet. Now, since I made it sound as if "Getting OP" has been my single reason for playing Arelith for the past few months ( and while I am tempted to make an elven sexy elven fun times meme in a serious post )... I think that I'm free to claim that there is a lot more to Arelith than farming strong items, and I have not been ignorant of these opportunities. Since the character in question is the one that is 'loaded' on artifacts, let's quickly get back to the topic.

By removing the system you have essentially already removed the artifacts. It will take time, and believe it or not eventually they will be rooted out and the few that do remain will actually become true to their name. Yes and, sadly so, OOC is a huge factor on Arelith and these items will be passed on for as long as they can be passed on. But, I dislike repeating other people's points here - People do get lazy, and people do forget to pass them over, people shelf their characters and never unshelf them and people get banned. That is what is going to be their bane, and that is how they will fade away.

I don't deny that characters who have them are stronger than those who don't, but more often than not it doesn't really matter. I, to some degree, know ( thanks to the people I have been pestering for the past two years to explain to me why X is not Y, and why are clerics OP ( they are, and then they are not... but then they are again? ) how the NWN and Arelith work. That said I'm nothing special when it comes to PvP, and I have lost some matches ( If I may call them such on a RP server ) purely because I'm bad, while otherwise I could have easily won if I used my brain properly. What does this mean to those of you who dislike some characters being more powerful than the other? It means that, if you really, really care about that, you can beat the artifact-stacked Jim if you are better at the game than him. This is because, at least in my opinion, skill > gear ( at least on Arelith ). Indeed, in some situations this does not matter and - indeed, some players are already 'skill' capped, if I may say so... RP gods forgive me for using this term. I should probably add that I'm a huge p when it comes to PvP. Anyone who knows me better can confirm this. I would never get in a fight with my character if there isn't some essential reason behind it, and a third of my fights have been people ganging up on her. The other third was her following orders, the obsessed follower that she was, and the last 1/3 was when it simply wouldn't make sense if she did not otherwise engage. I can also count down all of these situations down in my two hands, which should further prove that PvP and I don't really get along because I hate feeling like a nervous wreck.

On the decision to remove artifact system:

It is good, but it is also bad... and it also... kind of for the best? It's strange like that. Why? Because Arelith keeps following the trend of removing things they may or may not find a solution for later in the future. The system was strange, and some change was indeed in order for a very long time now. And while it has been somewhat flawed, it wasn't really... Unbearable. I'm not on the team, and I can't speak for any of the members, if it was my trigger to pull I would have come up with a solution first before hitting some members of the community ( especially fragile me ) with the "for now" statement. What does that mean, for now? Are you going to, eventually, entirely remove everything both myself and my character has worked for? To remove her artifacts ( or reshape them) would be a strange thing to do, considering they are ( surprise surprise ) a part of her. And I don't mean... they are in her inventory and she has them equipped, but that she has made some questionable decisions to get the job done and I would hate to discover that all of that was for nothing, or some twisted version of it that would make no sense at all. I seriously dislike publicly discussing any of the characters I play ( or to write their descriptions. If you encounter one of mine and examine them you can notice that I tend to include only what is not visible in the game (partially because I'm terrible at descriptions) ) but seeing as I will need to, in order to further prove my point - It changed her. It changed the person that she was and it led her to a path she may not have taken if these "shiny, pretty things" were not on display for 'free'. Because they weren't for free. It may not be entirely visible, but she is mentally scarred because of these 'overpowered' things. They came with a price, and I may be a moron for having roleplayed that 'price' for all this time now. And while a single item did cost a considerable amount of gold ( which I worked her Snuggybear off in character to create the said money ), I don't speak about the coin.

So with my character's future ( and my own, at least on Arelith ) being in the hands of a team now, having made this obnoxiously long post on how I feel about the current topic, one thing I believe I have the right to ask of the team, as a player, is to be very considerate. Without implying that you have been doing the opposite in the past. I had pleasant experience with the DM team ( and a single dev at the time, I believe.) on an occasion or two where they had every right to screw me over, but they didn't. Because it wasn't the correct thing to do, and I'm still thankful for that. If it may not be too greedy or rude of me to ask for the similar treatment again to but thoughtfully consider what this may mean to a few of us that don't see artifacts only as means to mechanical power, but something more than that, or simply because we like and prefer them as they are. It's not a hard thing to elaborate.

I think that I, to some level, understand those of you who are advocating that the current ones become removed as well. Of you I ask, if that I can, that you consider whether our loss will become your gain. It sounds a little bit edgy, but this not being my first tongue I'm somewhat limited here. I hope that I made my point, and I'm thankful to those who actually took their time to read this.

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FoxyPigeon
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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by FoxyPigeon » Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:54 am

Dragon PC's didn't get deleted when the reward was removed, and neither should the remaining artifacts. If someone is really going about on a pvp-spree simply because they are covered in broken op artifacts, they can just be banned.

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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by Ork » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:19 am

Arelith: where every change is a new discussion post

The artifacts were, honestly, a pretty lazy addition (sorry to whoever added them.) Having random stats with wild parameters and random intervals of time in which they could be found was already a borked mechanic. This needed to be done sooner, and I look forward to whatever is added in its place.

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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by Rivace_Silver » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:49 am

Mouthy Expert wrote:
Venach wrote:As long as there is some reason for level 30s to go out and adventure with something besides ((gold)) being the main motivation.

Otherwise, Arelith will continue to degrade into a social RP 2nd life-esque game.
thanks for the insightful social commentary, guy who registered two minutes before making this post.

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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by BegoneThoth » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:02 am

FoxyPigeon wrote:Dragon PC's didn't get deleted when the reward was removed, and neither should the remaining artifacts. If someone is really going about on a pvp-spree simply because they are covered in broken op artifacts, they can just be banned.
it's not so much going on a pvp spree as much as it is being unable to be pvp'd because you can max 3 stats and have +9 or so to most saves with arti gear. if your friends have access to artis with +3 stat rings/belts/amulets you can do builds non-arti people can't, and it becomes really imbalanced.

it needs to go. i don't understand how leaving things like +4 dodge ac +4 stat boots in ONLY for the lucky/connected ones is a position anyone can justify.
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Seekeepeek
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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by Seekeepeek » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:55 am

i only think there is one active dragon pc atm, who play really rarely. Do correct me if iam wrong.. but most people move on to new characters even if they have a 5% in their character vault whom is collecting dust.

the muling script prevent you from passing it down to far between friends anyways.

What's stopping you from trying to be the connected one anyway? it's fun and lead to a lot of roleplay. That someone reward you with an old item just make it better. You need to work to get these things off strangers hands, and it can be quite fun.

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greatfanfare
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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by greatfanfare » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:05 am

nobs3 wrote:
greatfanfare wrote:
nobs3 wrote: Dont think you can compare a portable portal to a ring of Ghostly Visage... have you read the suggestions?
I did, and my post stands, many more "1 use/day" or "x uses until it breaks" doesn't provide an incentive for high epic.
One of the best quests I did with an charcater of mine was placing a DM item next to Bendir that did spawn endless undeads and caused a big mess and provided much fun for plenty of players.
For some players this could be a higher incentive than some better statts.
Now you are the one adding apples to oranges, a DM quest it's a DM quest, it happens and that's it.

99,9% of active characters were not involved nor affected by that DM quest, are you proposing a system of DM privilege now?

Because that's how the server I played before coming here about a decade ago went under.

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Terenfel
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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by Terenfel » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:03 am

what if artefacts was picked up from a corpse as gold is? ohh no they stole our familie heirloom.. we gotta get it back.. that fosters RP.. right?

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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by Nitro » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:11 am

Terenfel wrote:what if artefacts was picked up from a corpse as gold is? ohh no they stole our familie heirloom.. we gotta get it back.. that fosters RP.. right?
I don't think artefact hoarding ganksquads are where any of us want to go.

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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by Durandal » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:41 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:it's not so much going on a pvp spree as much as it is being unable to be pvp'd because you can max 3 stats and have +9 or so to most saves with arti gear. if your friends have access to artis with +3 stat rings/belts/amulets you can do builds non-arti people can't, and it becomes really imbalanced.

it needs to go. i don't understand how leaving things like +4 dodge ac +4 stat boots in ONLY for the lucky/connected ones is a position anyone can justify.
I'm still a noob, and I remember when I joined the server months back and learned about legacy characters, I got a little annoyed because they had access to an extra gift and more build flexibility then me. I don't recall them getting wiped tho and really I stopped caring.

I never found any artefacts, but saw a few that were really nice. I think it is a good idea to replace the system with something new, but removing artifacts from people who did manage to get them sounds like we're punishing a lot of people for doing nothing wrong and that's not cool. If you're going to avoid pvping someone ic just because they have something you don't well, that's dumb. You can still beat them, maybe not as easily as you like versus someone who does not have artefacts, you may have to gather help ic or come up with a new more challenging strategy. They have some better saves or AC? You can't 1-click implode or evo-combo them? Deal with it ic. It's the same as a rp build vs a power build, but the rp build can win.

Yes some artefacts were broken as has been said, but I really think people are blowing these out of the water, because they're not the ones who have them. Removing them is very petty imho and ppl should care less about them in general.

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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by yellowcateyes » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:10 pm

It's well worth remembering that the artefact system encouraged the worst sort of farming.

During it's heyday, several characters would remain logged out at artefact chest zones and log in right after reset. When the random delay in artefact spawning was introduced, characters would do the same but check multiple times after a set period.

When artefact chests were moved to where the bosses were, there were characters who would log in, and use a BBoD / Gsanc combo to safely bash the artefact chests before logging out and waiting until the next cycle.

Even those farmers who didn't exploit via login tricks ended up barreling through the dungeon invisible and hasted, just to bash the artefact chest and go.

While such behavior did not encompass everyone who found or obtained an artefact over the years, the most egregious case of artefact stockpiling can be traced to these activities.

As far as the comparison to grandfathered characters go, letting individual characters fade is not an issue. Items, however, can be passed on to fresh characters and new stories. In this regard, the system rewards OOC coordination between social groups who can swap items between each other to avoid the muling scripts.

"Passing on an heirloom," after all, is just an in-character excuse to gift a powerful item to friends or your own future characters.

Not all artefact-owning players engaged in this kind of activity, and many artefacts were obtained quite legitimately. But this really is the case of a few bad apples ruining the bunch.

We'll see what the future holds.
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Seekeepeek
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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by Seekeepeek » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:33 pm

Didn't mitheras add log files? The artifacts did have that text. Found by x at place y. If so.. just search for whom names often turn up and delete those. Surely ppl that does that will have thier names on most.

edit: nevermind that... it would hit way to many innocent people that got them from shops and such in good faith..

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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by Xanos950 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:21 pm

deleting existing artefacts would just cause an uproar similar to the... hey y'all 'member the brief death timer? yeah, that one. Because you would effectively kick a lot of innocent (probably more innocent than guilty) people in the groin for doing absolutly nothing wrong other than to enjoy the server.

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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by BegoneThoth » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:25 pm

+4 ac +4 strength helms existing and never entering the open market once found do a lot more damage.
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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by WinkinBlinkin » Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:06 pm

Could you somehow mark them as plot, so that whoever owns an artefact now cannot pass them on? It doesn't solve the issue of those having them being overpowered, but it would prevent entire groups of ooc buddies being overpowered forever. They would pass out of circulation a lot quicker that way.

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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by BegoneThoth » Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:22 pm

Why not just solve the issue of them being overpowered forever by culling them

It's not like the good ones are even close to what you can get through normal systems. +4 ab freedom weapons? You can't get close to that.
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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by All The Sinners Saints » Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:32 pm

Unlike things like old 3 +2 gift characters, or other things of that nature that are contained within a single character, artifacts pose a far more problematic issue, as unlike properties on a character sheet, the artifacts can easily remain a lasting ooc adventage for a group of friends that other less connected players cannot hope to obtain, so at the very least they should be untransferable/sellable.

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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by Tarkus the dog » Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:37 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:+4 ac +4 strength helms existing and never entering the open market once found do a lot more damage.
It seems that your biggest argument is "I cannot PvP this person because he has artifacts" and I was seriously hoping that I would need not make another post again, but to dispel some incorrect statements:
it's not so much going on a pvp spree as much as it is being unable to be pvp'd
This is not true, people that have them are not gods on earth and I have seen them die ( my character being one of them ) both in group fights and duels. I'll leave this at that, and you to figure out how to ( if you really, really want ) kill these characters. This should be an IC thing, but since you brought it OOC.
if your friends have access to artis with +3 stat rings/belts/amulets you can do builds non-arti people can't, and it becomes really imbalanced.
With enough effort you can have the +3 gear yourself ( I am not speaking about artifacts). People who have artifacts have it easier, such as CHA clerics that got terribly nerfed ever since the 3 gift system was removed. You can actually play them again now with the transmutation changes.
i don't understand how leaving things like +4 dodge ac +4 stat boots in ONLY for the lucky/connected ones is a position anyone can justify.
4 AC 4 Stat boots likely don't exist ( and I would not mind being corrected since the system was somewhat chaotic ). I have seen two of them ( 4 AC boots ), one which was swallowed by a server crash. To claim that only lucky/connected ones get to have shiny stuff is equal to claiming that only lucky/connected people get to play the 5% characters, but I don't see you complaining about those. It's actually pretty similar. If you get a major reward from a roll, you can give it to somebody else - the same way you can give an artifact to a friend. Why is this allowed, but handing over artifacts is frowned upon? You need to either work hard or to be lucky to get both artifacts and 5%. Look up "gohlock" and you'll know how desperate people can be to get something they dearly want, I absolutely do not blame them for that. It should not come of as a surprise that both luck and OOC plays a huge factor on Arelith, and if you think that punching random people in the gut who haven't done anything wrong is the way to fix things then I believe that you are wrong. I support the team if their decision is to crack down on the OOC on Arelith ( which is near impossible, may I add ) but carpet bombing everybody and hoping you hit these bad fruits is not the way to do it considering you'll also do harm along the way. As for luck - Luck is a factor in both DnD and NWN. I agree, as I have said so already, that the artifact system was flawed. But we should contribute to making it better. Removing everything from everybody, both white, black and gray, is not making things better and I have seen far too many times Arelith doing this in the past.
+4 ac +4 strength helms existing and never entering the open market once found do a lot more damage.
To who? You ought to elaborate, unless you intend to make similar PvP points then I don't need to repeat myself here. I agree with yellowcateyes that there has been a lot of dirt going around the gathering of said items, and I am going to join him in the "waiting for the future" and hope for the best. Not only for me, but for everybody else. Again, and the last time I'm going to say this - Do not suppose that the best way to get rid of the problem is to target absolutely everybody who is related to it - whether they deserve to be targeted or not. I can speak for myself and I can state that I haven't done any of the frowned-upon methods to gather any of these items. If you decide to include me ( or anybody else who does not deserve to be included) with the rest of the bad apples, I have the right to state my concerns and complain.

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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by Beernerd81 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:46 pm

https://i.imgur.com/BDPAZ3b.jpg

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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by Conversations With Your Car Alarm » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:06 pm

Tarkus, you can sum up the argument for keeping artifacts as 'I just want to keep my stuff' as easily as you can the argument against by saying 'You just care about PVP.' It's not that simple either way.

I do not think the server needs to make decisions on the basis of, 'this will make people mad.' I think the server needs to make decisions based on, 'What is best for the server'

I think all artifacts should be removed. I think this because it's a more fair way of doing things. We all assume that, with the release of EE we are going to have quite a few new players on the server. If I was a new player and found out that there are items that I can not find but old characters have them, and a lot of them, I would not think that was fair. Will it piss off people with artifacts? Yes, it will. Will it move us towards a more balanced server than if the artifacts remain? I think so, and I think that is what we should always be doing.

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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by Nitro » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:15 pm

Welp, I guess those who bought artefacts for millions of gold or ran hundreds of dungeons to get a single good artefact are just going to get shafted then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I don't see why we'd need to remove the artefacts still in circulation. Tons of loot has been grandfathered away over time. Anyone remember the famous rings of regeneration? (Not the Lantan bands). There are still a couple of those floating around and it was well over 10 years since they were removed from the loot matrix, but you don't see anyone going around shouting for those to be removed. Same with the old greensteel armour, that's still around and kicking, factually better than the current greensteel and only so many of them around in the world.

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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by rookie » Sun Dec 10, 2017 6:24 pm

Eh, I mean every time there is a major class change people talk about wasted time as they may need to spend effort reworking their character to the new mechanics (or just reroll). While removing old artefacts might hit more characters it is pretty much the same end result, and blocks artefacts from being passed down within a clique as characters are rolled.

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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by BegoneThoth » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:22 pm

Nitro wrote:Welp, I guess those who bought artefacts for millions of gold or ran hundreds of dungeons to get a single good artefact are just going to get shafted then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I don't see why we'd need to remove the artefacts still in circulation. Tons of loot has been grandfathered away over time. Anyone remember the famous rings of regeneration? (Not the Lantan bands). There are still a couple of those floating around and it was well over 10 years since they were removed from the loot matrix, but you don't see anyone going around shouting for those to be removed. Same with the old greensteel armour, that's still around and kicking, factually better than the current greensteel and only so many of them around in the world.
Because while things like green steel are a leg up they have nothing on 4 AC 4 stat items, or 4 ab freedom items, or the 4 dodge 4 fort boots, which are so much better then anything else you can get, and stack with one another, so it's just not a fair comparison.

I mean if you're decked out in artifacts you can get ten or more saves, about 15 extra stat points, and five or more ac then anyone else, and there's no reason for it. It's simply not fair and disrupts the balance, Moreso when some builds only become possible if you can max three separate stats w/o buffs, which you can do only with artifacts.
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