Artifact removal discussion.

[Shadowy Reality]

Yeah, I got your opinion by your second post, BegoneThoth.

You seem to think you are as entitled to this as you were to change Cih's playerlist, which I will go ahead and say, lost much of it's use thanks to that. Give other people some credit instead of just calling us idiots.

[Ramza]

Eh, honestly i'm just hearing people complain and want to remove the power of Artefacts to the players that worked hard to get them because they didn't take the time to get them. Though this was addressed earlier and was subsequently ignored as well. Hrmmm... Ah well,

[BegoneThoth]

Yeah, I got your opinion by your second post, BegoneThoth.

You seem to think you are as entitled to this as you were to change Cih's playerlist, which I will go ahead and say, lost much of it's use thanks to that. Give other people some credit instead of just calling us idiots.

Considering you can still use it to find peoples alts, even across different player accounts, which I have done as recently as moments before this post, it still has a long way to go.

[TimeAdept]

Eh, honestly i'm just hearing people complain and want to remove the power of Artefacts to the players that worked hard to get them because they didn't take the time to get them. Though this was addressed earlier and was subsequently ignored as well. Hrmmm... Ah well,

Scurvy Cur wrote:
It's purely fallacious to assert, completely absent support, that effort expended creates an interest in retaining artifacts that supersedes the interest the server has in both improved balance and removing the issue of OOC artifact passing.

The main reason characters with no-longer-available classes/subraces/triple stat gifts get grandfathered is that they cannot be passed on to subsequent players. These eventually have a shelf life, since, Roland Asen analogues aside, most people eventually retire their old characters.

When they do so with artifacts, however, they almost always pass those items along. Artis do get removed on occasion when they get accumulated by a character whose player gets hit by a permaban (players dodge these often, but doing so requires a new CD key, which leaves the old character and the artis limboed), but this is a pleasant exception, not a rule.

There's a helpful set of hypotheticals that may be illuminating here, regarding the persistence of artifacts:

A and B sit down to discuss builds. A observes that B's build is pretty MAD, but that he can probably get away with it if he swaps out conj focii and epic dragon knight for transmutation focii and one other feat. B's response is that, yeah, that would be a concern for most people running this build, but it's okay in his case to go for the much greedier set of focii because he knows his friend, C, has a trove of artis that will safely let him cap out a third stat.

A and B sit down later to discuss another set of builds. B asks A if he is worried about some of the usual melee counters to his class. A responds that he is not, because a friend of his has a quad set of AC artifacts that give him 7 AC more than is typical for his build, and he is expecting to get those items when his friend rolls the character.

D comes to A and B later and asks for advice on choosing between rogue and bard on his weaponmaster, as well as choosing between save feats and OWC. He expresses concerns that he is not comfortable relying on clarity and wands to protect himself from DC spells. "Not to worry", A and B reply, "While this is a concern for most people playing a 20/7/3, we have a set of artifacts that will cap your str/con and give you a combined +12 to your saving throws. You can go for the maximum damage route and have all the saves you'll ever need".

If any of these seem problematic to you, then you should probably not be okay with leaving existing artifacts be. If none of this seems problematic to you, you probably need a quick crash course on why we already prohibit OOC transfers of items between characters (it's just stinkingly difficult to catch, so people get away with it all the time).

[Ramza]

Thoth, something you have to realize is that that passing down of items through personal friends and groups is part of human nature. Its not going to go away.

[Ramza]

But, something I would be ok with and something that would better fit this kind of idea. Is to give Artefacts a triple or quadruple gold value for rolling percentage bonuses.

It would both encourage the removal of them across the board, while also giving the Player 'something' for all the effort they went into getting them.

[dallion43]

Eh, honestly i'm just hearing people complain and want to remove the power of Artefacts to the players that worked hard to get them because they didn't take the time to get them. Though this was addressed earlier and was subsequently ignored as well. Hrmmm... Ah well,

As long as something teoreticaly available to all it is hardly an issue. But when it is stopped being available to all, the above doesn't cover newer players or player with more limited time RL wise.

[Dr_Hazard89]

Thoth, something you have to realize is that that passing down of items through personal friends and groups is part of human nature. Its not going to go away.

There are logs. If you think someone has done this, report it.
"Cheating is human nature, so we should embrace it." is not a very good argument.

[Ramza]

Neither is refusing to admit that people can and have roleplayed for those artifacts, with the possibility to get them in the first place coming from their OOC associations. Something that every group we have on this server does to an extent, either from positions of power or the possibility to start new leadership.

[Weerd]

In regards to the new system. If it works like I think it does, could us players get some guarantee we can keep what we design before this change gets reverted? (If it does)

I'd like to spend this weekend grinding dungeons and enchanting epic gear for my buddies.

[Voidstone Roulette]

In regards to the new system. If it works like I think it does, could us players get some guarantee we can keep what we design before this change gets reverted? (If it does)

I'd like to spend this weekend grinding dungeons and enchanting epic gear for my buddies.

Will trade epic gear for friends.

[Sockss]

I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that people having good artefacts have earnt them. They simply got lucky.

Artefact grinding has never been difficult.

[yellowcateyes]

As far as existing artefacts go, it's unlikely that they will remain as is.

In regards to the new system. If it works like I think it does, could us players get some guarantee we can keep what we design before this change gets reverted? (If it does)

It should remain stable for the time being. You might want to experiment with it to learn its limitations.

[Griefmaker]

Yeah, I got your opinion by your second post, BegoneThoth.

You seem to think you are as entitled to this as you were to change Cih's playerlist, which I will go ahead and say, lost much of it's use thanks to that. Give other people some credit instead of just calling us idiots.

Ah, that is what happened. I was a bit disappointed too when I tried to use that for the first time in a month and saw the change.

[Scurvy Cur]

Thoth, something you have to realize is that that passing down of items through personal friends and groups is part of human nature. Its not going to go away.

Yeah, it's almost like we're fully cognizant of that, and as a result, see why the great arti bonfire 2k17 needs to happen.

[Sailormoon~s No1 Fan]

Sorry, not read all seven pages! Never owned any artifacts myself, but I hope players who do receive some form of compensation. Something on par with what the new system offers, maybe?

[BegoneThoth]

Thoth, something you have to realize is that that passing down of items through personal friends and groups is part of human nature. Its not going to go away.

Well that's certainty a unique take.

[Baron Saturday]

Sorry, not read all seven pages! Never owned any artifacts myself, but I hope players who do receive some form of compensation. Something on par with what the new system offers, maybe?

This would be quite interesting, actually, if artefacts degraded into runes.

Also, guys, this thread is getting kinda heated. Take a step back for a breather, maybe?

[Dalek Caan]

As entertaining as all of this is, I'd honestly be... annoyed, let's say, to see artifacts stomped. I've spent a fair deal of time, energy and gold (5 million or so?) on getting artifacts and trading them with others.

Call it weird but I take a bit of pride in mine.

That said, if the final decision is to have artifacts removed from characters.... Eh. Things happen. Arelith has seen a lot.

[One Two Three Five]

I mean, when I lost my +5 hide/ms stealth suit when the basins were changed, it sucked but I got over it pretty fast. I didn't need that stuff. And I got gold in return! That I used on replacement gear! So it was fine. I'm sure there'll be some manner of compensation.

[CharlesK]

There is already crafting items one can make for extremely skilled crafters, problem is it's another need to spend a fortune to get anything made as ingredients are hard to find so you need to spend a few hundred thousand gold just for the ingredients.

Guess no point in buying any artifacts in shops now since they are most likely going to be removed also.

Agreed, buying an artifact at this point is like take a chance that your throwing your money away.
Hoping the powers that be come up with something nice and fair for artifact owners, isn't the kind of chance I would take with something expensive.

[Black Wendigo]

People. You need to remember that this decision, and any other came from the devs, not posters. Arelith does not decide things on how many people post, as most players simply do not respond to threads like these.

I, for one, have not been posting because I want the devs to do something my way. How many of you who want to keep artifacts or be "compensated" are doing just that?

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Thoth, something you have to realize is that that passing down of items through personal friends and groups is part of human nature. Its not going to go away.

"People are going to cheat, it's not going to go away, by the way, don't take away these items that people are cheating with."

This is what your argument amounts to. You are admitting that people aren't going to stop passing artifacts down OOC'ly. Your stance specifically states that someone needs to realize this, implying it is a majority of circumstances, and you seem to be endorsing it.

Read another way; artifacts are causing to people perform OOC item transfers, which are expressly and explicitly against the rules.

So the items are both overpowered and encourage an atmosphere that makes people think it's okay to break the rules?

Sounds like one more excellent reason to remove them to me.



I understand not all inherited artifacts were passed down OOC. I understand not everyone who found an artifact becomes a villain seeking to get away with breaking the rules. I understand there are hand-me-downs that are entirely in-character.

That, however, is not the frame of your argument- so you may wish to rethink it if you'd actually like artifacts to remain on the server.

I don't have any artifacts, I'm not getting raged that I can't ever find them now. Then again, I didn't make my build around a loot matrix lottery.

And I have absolutely zero sympathy for the people who did.


P.S. Didn't the last announcement say that pre-existing artifacts were remaining for now? Why do we already have seven pages of protest?

[Cortex]

People. YOU need to remember that this decision, and any other came from the devs, not posters. Arelith does not decide things on how many people post, as most players simply do not respond to threads like these.

I, dor one, have not been posting because I want the devs to do something my way. How many of you who want to keep artifacts or be "compensated" are doing just that?

I'll say that arguements for the sake of arguing never swayed my mind either way when I was doing stuff. Don't think that's changed with yce. That said, some debating can be nice when points are presented in a concise manner, at least so the devs and contributors can see both ways. Not to mention that some nice ideas come out at times (concepts, not math formulas).

[Xanos950]

The team has (yet) to even mention the removal of artefacts. Most of it playerbase bring it up like some "fact" that's been announced, and even then only the same four or so people in this topic like BegoneThoth who has like half of all posts in here, starting a witchhunt on he topic.

Why don't we all just relax and lean back a moment. It'll obviously cause an uproar, i'm sure the team knows what they'll doing, when they're doing it.