Artifact removal discussion.

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caldura firebourne
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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by caldura firebourne » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:33 am

I for one welcome this, it'll go a long way towards balancing the player economy to closer to reasonably priced items, as it was you could go to just about any shop and find an artefact that may be moderately useful to some rare niche build priced like it was the best thing ever, +3 ac artefacts priced higher than adamantine simply because it was named artefact instead of adamantine. So many shops are stocked with these and priced too high to be worthwhile has ruined the player market for me.

Sure, some of my characters will lose out on some decent gear, but overall I think it's about time.
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Ork
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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by Ork » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:38 am

Dovesong wrote:If your artefacts are the only thing here that you think brings you joy, or gives you a reason to play, maybe examine why you've chosen -this- place?
Amen.

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Xanos950
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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by Xanos950 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:44 am

BegoneThoth wrote:
Xanos950 wrote:
"Existing artifacts remain in place (for now)."
Here's praying it stays that way. Just because one character out of a few thousand have the perfect stuff doesn't mean i want my character literally gutted.

As said before, Smash the chests but keep the existing artes.
If your character gets "gutted" because of a loss of artifacts its likely those types of gear situations that were a major part of the decision to remove them.

What did you have, that's so good the loss of it will "gut" you?

edit; wording, fixing mobile typos

only one or two pieces with minor uni saves. but most people build their gear around those things, without that you'd have to again get yourself custom stuff enchanted which again costs a ton of money. as a lot of people already mentioned in this topic.

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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by Wytchee » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:22 am

Everyone spends gold on enchantments. It's the standard for late-level play here. So yeah, in addition to what BT said, if your build is gutted by the removal of artifacts you have a bad build.
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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by pigman » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:33 am

I love my +2 dex, 2 unisave, 10 fire resist gloves. they are brilliant utility for a squishy rogue but knowing that 95% of the server (unless some hidden statistics say otherwise) will be unable to obtain equally useful gear for their characters makes me perfectly happy for the devs to poof them away. RNG jesus dictating who gets to have more "fun" with their build is crappy.

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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by Black Wendigo » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:53 am

Someone getting a super rare item and enjoying it is great. People compaining because they lose something that no one else has is not.

Your char isn't going to be "gutted" because you lost a very nice item. Because your char shouldn't be defined by items, bbut RP. Let's face it. There will be times when there will be changes that radically change our chars. It's not the end of the world nor the end of your char when it ha[[ens. (It has happened to me more than once and likely most of us have experienced this , especially in recent months).


Two words define why I am happy to see artifacts go: Power creep. I have noticed that more and more powerful items had been getting into the loot matrix one way or another and artifacts are the main cause. It's hapooened before : this is why certain items are no longer found, like bags of holding. Sometimes items that used to be found can't be anymore. (I have a char that has a regen ring - when was the last time someone found one of those?)

So let's all just step back and relax. THer will always be a way to powerbuild are "problems" like these.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by BegoneThoth » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:13 am

JediMindTrix wrote:
BegoneThoth wrote: What did you have, that's so good the loss of it will "gut" you?

edit; wording, fixing mobile typos
+4 attribute items that let you get a wider stat spread. yea, that can gut a character if they're suddenly gone and they're not an enchanter.
But +4 attribute items are crazy OP, cannot be replicated outside wild RNG odds, and need to go.
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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by JediMindTrix » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:55 am

BegoneThoth wrote:
But +4 attribute items are crazy OP, cannot be replicated outside wild RNG odds, and need to go.
Then let them die the same way as everything else legacy dies

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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by BegoneThoth » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:32 am

No, that's a bad practice when stuff is OP, and we're seeing a big shift away from that mentality. Con-biteback barbarians wen't even given a rebuild.

Grandfathering 'broken' things is a bad practice and im glad it's going away.
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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by flower » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:35 am

I wonder how item on some character damages YOUR fun so badly you demand them to be taken away from those people.

That is a clear nonsence and the only thing which ruins your fun is yourself and your feeling you do not like it.

I do not really care if these items stay or go but i am shocked by the great deal how people force something becuase of being green with envy.

Characters have impact on story because of how are rped not how well stocked with artefacts are.

Edit: I already deleted two characters with minor artefacts and right now own none, before you would blame from being artefact holder :lol:

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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by TimeAdept » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:04 am

I wonder how item on some character damages YOUR fun so badly you demand them to be taken away from those people.
It's less this, and more that we, together, the people who make up this community, are capable of seeing things in the bigger picture, and understand that these items existing isn't great for the community. The world has to be looked at with objective balance and fairness in mind. A weavemaster still existing doesn't break the world, but numerous characters with the sort of items like Liareth posted absolutely does - these items will not leave the game world at any fast pace, and will dictate conflicts as long as they exist, in a much more real manner than a Weavemaster or a Favored Soul will.

Envy has nothing at all to do with it. It's about making decisions for the betterment of server balance and long term enjoyment. I think the artifact system is great - but simply because of the effects it produces, grandfathering it creates a much, much more drastic divide than 'ride gift is grandfathered' or 'nobility is grandfathered'.'

You don't grandfather +4 AC 10/- elemen resist +4 stat +3 fortitude armor. People's RP can dictate story flow, but like has been shown in game very, very clearly recently - the ability of your character to bash someone else's head in absolutely dictates story flow as well, and artifacts massively skew that, even one midrange decent one, let alone the RNGesus roll.

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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by Liareth » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:59 am

If I were in charge of fixing this, I would do something like degrade the properties of existing artifacts over (logged in) time until they reach some sort of cap - for AC, 2 (on boots), for uni saves, 1, for specific saves, 2, for stats, 2, freedom and fear immunity goes, etc. That gives time for people to adjust and leaves items that are marginally better than what you can get otherwise. Nobody gets screwed but some characters get power decreases.
TimeAdept wrote:A weavemaster still existing doesn't break the world, but numerous characters with the sort of items like Liareth posted absolutely does - these items will not leave the game world at any fast pace, and will dictate conflicts as long as they exist, in a much more real manner than a Weavemaster or a Favored Soul will.
By the way, the gear I posted belongs to one of my characters. It's possible to have a near best in slot set of gear and still want the balance of the items fixed. (not addressed to you, but to those who claim this is about jealousy)

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Dovesong
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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by Dovesong » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:40 am

Literally none of us are "green with envy". I don't honestly understand or care enough about mechanics to bother, and my playtime is so limited that even getting to where I can POSSIBLY get an artefact is almost impossible.

What we are is cognizant of the fact that these things are simply ridiculously overpowered at times, and I personally am sad at the entitled tone a lot of these posts take on. It's fine to disagree, but it's possible to do so with a little grace, and at least some understanding that no one here is actually trying to screw you.

Scholar's gear alone shows how ridiculous it can get, and WHY someone with the kind of time to get either these artifacts or the gold to get them has a decided mechanical advantage over those who don't. Mechanical knowledge can be learned. PVP/PVE skills can be sharpened. Time, however, can't be gained.
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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by Dr_Hazard89 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:07 am

flower wrote:I wonder how item on some character damages YOUR fun so badly you demand them to be taken away from those people.

That is a clear nonsence and the only thing which ruins your fun is yourself and your feeling you do not like it.

I do not really care if these items stay or go but i am shocked by the great deal how people force something becuase of being green with envy.

Characters have impact on story because of how are rped not how well stocked with artefacts are.

Edit: I already deleted two characters with minor artefacts and right now own none, before you would blame from being artefact holder :lol:
Unfortunately it's a multiplayer game and so it's not nonsense. I doubt it has anything to do with jealousy either. Personally I'm glad this change has gone in, I've literally been wanting artifacts to go away ever since they came into existence. I knew it would cause all the problems they've caused, and while I don't want anyone to lose what they have, I think some sort of decay script would be appropriate considering how broken some of the items are.
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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by Black Wendigo » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:09 pm

It's awfully presumptuous to say people who want to eliminate OP items and artifacts want it because they are envious. You are defending people who seem to think they are -entitled to keep things that are getting removed. People having things I don't have doesn't ruin my fun. People who think they are entitled to things I don't have do. Not the same thing. This isn't the first time OP items have been removed. I am certain that everyone who had a bag of holding andwanted the oem to be "grandfathered" too.

People do not want to get rid of things just to annoy people who have them. They want them gone because they never should have been there to begin with. Again my issue is power creep, not envy.
Last edited by Black Wendigo on Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by frightnight » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:30 pm

personally the most enjoyment i get in playing dnd is finding dungeon loot.. i am of the belief that crafting ruined that.. i dont feel much motivation in grinding coins just to make another generic +2/+2 stat +2/+2/+2 skill gear... part of the fun lies in “how can i make this build work” with the plethora of unique and varied loot drops available in the matrix and creates a fun open market

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Xanos950
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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by Xanos950 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:55 pm

Guess everyone's going to be running around with the same "BiS" enchanted gear then. (+1stat/+1stat/save/+2skill/+2skill/ and +2skill if lucky).

Fact that so many people make it their crusade to basically answer to almost any new disagreeing post just to again slap their opinion about how bad they want the items gone, despite the team not even having mentioned their possible removal is what boggles me.

"Fair" would be if every one had the same gear or chance to get gear (Here it would be endgear custom enchant stuff) like on PvP/Arena servers or... gods forbid.. MMO's. Also let's make everyone the same race while we're at it, different scores always forced people to build around a certain concept to stand out, we don't want that. Jokes aside...

I'm not saying i justify the nonsense +4+4+5 ratio of the listed and honestly ridiculous items, trash 'em or mark everything as plot so it cant be traded again and fades when people shelf/roll/whathaveyou, that's all fine.

- There's a bit above the norm, like simple artefacts with only one +3 score on it, or an item with only one enchant of +3 uni on them.
- And uber ridiculous one in a million drops of what Liareth posted.

The former is what people build their character concepts and rp around and separates them without having to take a cookie-cutter build, taking all of that away simply and only forces them to come up with another nonsense excuse to justify the change in RP, hurts their bank accounts as now they may have to replace their entire equipment (trust me a single +2 or +3 item could do that), and unifies them under the same "Everyone's equal = Balanced" shtick.
The latter, should be removed either over time like was Miskol already mentioned (mark as plot essential if possible), or downgraded to properly fit with other "slightly stronger than basin" stuff, as otherwise that simply elevates characters above the norm to a level which breaks balance and makes them virtually untouchable unless that player fights really, really badly.

I trust the team fully to either rip the bandaid off or come up with a solution that comes to terms with both apparent sides of "Just delete em" and "Dont take our stuff" supporters.

Thank you.

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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by BegoneThoth » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:04 pm

Like I said, a big pool of hand-crafted items replacing the randarts would make exploration/bosses exciting and be balanced as well.
I'm not saying i justify the nonsense +4+4+5 ratio of the listed and honestly ridiculous items, trash 'em or mark everything as plot so it cant be traded again and fades when people shelf/roll/whathaveyou, that's all fine. There's a bit above the norm, like simple artefacts with only one +3 score on it, or an item with only one enchant of +3 uni on them. And uber ridiculous one in a million drops of what Liareth posted.
Just remember that items at least twice (sometimes more!) as good as normal items can all be stacked, leading to a character getting +15 saves, 5 or more AC, and/or +12 or more free stat points which allow them to do M.A.D. builds as they can max 3 stats which other players simply cannot do. It's so imbalanced who you're OOC friends with can actually make a build functional as opposed to trash, and it's something you see going on if you level in the primo leveling areas, which is where I saw most of my arties.
The latter, should be removed either over time like was Miskol already mentioned (mark as plot essential if possible), or downgraded to properly fit with other "slightly stronger than basin" stuff, as otherwise that simply elevates characters above the norm to a level which breaks balance and makes them virtually untouchable unless that player fights really, really badly.
The former is what people build their character concepts and rp around and separates them without having to take a cookie-cutter build, taking all of that away simply and only forces them to come up with another nonsense excuse to justify the change in RP, hurts their bank accounts as now they may have to replace their entire equipment (trust me a single +2 or +3 item could do that), and unifies them under the same "Everyone's equal = Balanced" shtick.
This suggestion to 'mark as plot' only means the imbalance in the system stays. It needs to be removed with no compromise.

And, as has been said, it's really really terrible if a character is only functional due to OP items.
Last edited by BegoneThoth on Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by Griefmaker » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:05 pm

frightnight wrote:personally the most enjoyment i get in playing dnd is finding dungeon loot..

This is a huge part of adventuring in any game, not just DnD. Sadly, this is something Arelith struggles with in a huge way, mostly for the sake of keeping everything balanced (I understand both sides of the argument and agree and disagree with both as well).

I do hope that whatever the devs come up with, it is something good. Because adventuring is still the heart of NWN and Arelith and the heart of adventuring is still the hope of finding something remarkable and wonderful at the end of the dangerous dungeon.

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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by Ramza » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:02 pm

Eh, I just love folk said that previously grandfathered species/Options are not relevant to the discussion of Artefacts. Kind of makes you think. :P

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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by Shadowy Reality » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:27 pm

I could be wrong, but I don't think there is a precedent in Arelith on outright removing items that PCs already have.

There are, however, plenty of cases of items removed from the matrix or toned down.

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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by BegoneThoth » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:02 pm

Ramza wrote:Eh, I just love folk said that previously grandfathered species/Options are not relevant to the discussion of Artefacts. Kind of makes you think. :P
Not really. Because you can't stack race templates like you can with +4 con +12 saves rings or belts or whatever.
Shadowy Reality wrote:I could be wrong, but I don't think there is a precedent in Arelith on outright removing items that PCs already have.

There are, however, plenty of cases of items removed from the matrix or toned down.
Time for a change then.
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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by Scurvy Cur » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:18 pm

There's a helpful set of hypotheticals that may be illuminating here, regarding the persistence of artifacts:

A and B sit down to discuss builds. A observes that B's build is pretty MAD, but that he can probably get away with it if he swaps out conj focii and epic dragon knight for transmutation focii and one other feat. B's response is that, yeah, that would be a concern for most people running this build, but it's okay in his case to go for the much greedier set of focii because he knows his friend, C, has a trove of artis that will safely let him cap out a third stat.

A and B sit down later to discuss another set of builds. B asks A if he is worried about some of the usual melee counters to his class. A responds that he is not, because a friend of his has a quad set of AC artifacts that give him 7 AC more than is typical for his build, and he is expecting to get those items when his friend rolls the character.

D comes to A and B later and asks for advice on choosing between rogue and bard on his weaponmaster, as well as choosing between save feats and OWC. He expresses concerns that he is not comfortable relying on clarity and wands to protect himself from DC spells. "Not to worry", A and B reply, "While this is a concern for most people playing a 20/7/3, we have a set of artifacts that will cap your str/con and give you a combined +12 to your saving throws. You can go for the maximum damage route and have all the saves you'll ever need".

If any of these seem problematic to you, then you should probably not be okay with leaving existing artifacts be. If none of this seems problematic to you, you probably need a quick crash course on why we already prohibit OOC transfers of items between characters (it's just stinkingly difficult to catch, so people get away with it all the time).


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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by Diilicious » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:29 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:
Shadowy Reality wrote:I could be wrong, but I don't think there is a precedent in Arelith on outright removing items that PCs already have.

There are, however, plenty of cases of items removed from the matrix or toned down.
Time for a change then.
oooh hoho no no, no it isnt time for a change in this regard, if the staff are going to start reaching into peoples characters pockets and taking things that were gotten fair and square, with a lot of effort to either get the item, or get the gold to buy the item, they delegitimise all of the time spent doing either.

At which point it is clearly time to move on from Arelith, such a subject goes way beyond a discussion of artifacts... A slope that slippery doesnt need standing on.
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Re: Artifact removal discussion.

Post by Scurvy Cur » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:40 pm

It's purely fallacious to assert, completely absent support, that effort expended creates an interest in retaining artifacts that supersedes the interest the server has in both improved balance and removing the issue of OOC artifact passing.

The main reason characters with no-longer-available classes/subraces/triple stat gifts get grandfathered is that they cannot be passed on to subsequent players. These eventually have a shelf life, since, Roland Asen analogues aside, most people eventually retire their old characters.

When they do so with artifacts, however, they almost always pass those items along. Artis do get removed on occasion when they get accumulated by a character whose player gets hit by a permaban (players dodge these often, but doing so requires a new CD key, which leaves the old character and the artis limboed), but this is a pleasant exception, not a rule.


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