Word of Faith changes?

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iria_huntress
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Word of Faith changes?

Post by iria_huntress » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:45 pm

Most of us know that when PvP starts, the first spell you can expect to be hit with is "Word of Faith". A spell without a save, and your only personal chance of getting past it is spell resistance, spell mantles, or already having true seeing cast. 2 of them are rounds per level. With the remove of infinite casters, that makes this highly unlikely.

It is a 7th circle spell that removes summons, blinds players, and can sometimes stun or kill them. The arcane equivalent would be Banish, which is a DC save at 8th circle. Clearly banish is far inferior.

The PnP equivalents would be Word of Balance or Word of Chaos. Each having their own limitations (ie doesn't bother chaotic or neutral), and are 7th circle. Word of faith ignores those limitations, but remains within the same circle. Sadly you can't change a spell circle without the use of haks, or I'd just suggest moving it to 9th circle to fit its strength.

It is common to see it cast 2-3 times during the opening of most player engagements. Generally the side that casts it first wins, as the one that is hit is stuck dealing with not only blindness, but any temporary meat tanks to assist are also all removed. It has won me more than a few fights :)

I was hoping to get a little thread going on suggestions for mechanical changes. My thought was limiting it to caster level, like many of the other spells. You can remove/affect say 1d4 HD of creatures per caster level, or something along those lines. That would help it fit more nicely within the 7th circle, and it would still retain most of its strength.

Another idea might involve cranking the piety consumption to that of a resurrection. That might at least reduce the spam of this very spam-worthy spell.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Word of Faith changes?

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:00 pm

Word of faith is a mandatory cornerstone of pvp balance and will be changed around the time WM's do.
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High Primate
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Re: Word of Faith changes?

Post by High Primate » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:30 pm

If you think Word of Faith is overpowered, play a cleric who gets into a lot of fights. You will soon come to realize that it is not.
Generally the side that casts it first wins
This is simply not true.

WoF is more likely to hurt you if you are not properly warded against it or don't have the means to remove blindness, yes. This is like complaining that fire is overpowered upon seeing someone run into it without wearing firefighting gear. Nothing about that situation is imbalanced.

Also note that WoF scrolls are also pretty easily resisted, and many of the high-level summons have spell resistance.
Some builds I've worked on (not recommended):
Charisma Battlecleric
"E-Dodge Brycer"

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Word of Faith changes?

Post by BegoneThoth » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:41 pm

You can also pray. Which does not take an action.
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High Primate
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Re: Word of Faith changes?

Post by High Primate » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:43 pm

Honestly, I don't even think WoF is all that awesome in and of itself. It can be part of a more complex strategy, but it's only devastating if the people you're playing against are inexperienced with the game, or very underequipped. This is why battleclerics are famously called "noobstompers": one depends on the other player to sit there in their chair and panic upon being blinded.
Last edited by High Primate on Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Some builds I've worked on (not recommended):
Charisma Battlecleric
"E-Dodge Brycer"

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Cortex
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Re: Word of Faith changes?

Post by Cortex » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:45 pm

Potion/Scroll of Remove Blind/Deaf.
:)

iria_huntress
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Re: Word of Faith changes?

Post by iria_huntress » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:46 pm

Instead of devolving into a debate where people throw down opinions without any facts to back them, let us look at this in a mechanical sense. Just because some people can pvp, and some can't doesn't mean anything in terms of mechanics. That is a matter of how skillfully it is applied.

Word of Faith is a combination (at epic levels) of banish and mass blindness/deafness. That is 2 8th circle spells that have a DC save condensed into a saveless 7th circle spell. How would one balance this?

Perhaps make it not apply to people of similar lawful/chaotic, or good/evil alignment (to preserve the flavor of the PnP). Or those stated before. Or something completely different!

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High Primate
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Re: Word of Faith changes?

Post by High Primate » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:47 pm

iria_huntress wrote:Instead of devolving into a debate where people throw down opinions without any facts to back them,
We are backing our positions up with facts, Ira, though there's a lot more that can be said on this subject. Perhaps the "git gud" crew in the "Builds n' Mechanics" subsection of the Arelith Discord can give you some tips.
Some builds I've worked on (not recommended):
Charisma Battlecleric
"E-Dodge Brycer"

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High Primate
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Re: Word of Faith changes?

Post by High Primate » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:54 pm

How would one balance this?
By providing various spells to increase SR or make one immune to spell levels.

By providing the means to counter blindness in 0 to 6 seconds, depending on the method.

By designing the game so that WoF scrolls have a low enough CL that they can be somewhat reliably resisted.

By designing summons who have spell resistance of varying levels, such that some will be more easily affected by WoF and some not so much, especially depending on whether it is cast from a scroll or by a high level cleric.

By including a selectable feat called "Blind Fight", which makes the effects of blindness much less awful than they would otherwise be.

These are some ways to balance WoF, all of which are in effect on Arelith.

You wanted facts, right?
Some builds I've worked on (not recommended):
Charisma Battlecleric
"E-Dodge Brycer"

iria_huntress
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Re: Word of Faith changes?

Post by iria_huntress » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:56 pm

High Primate has nothing helpful to say. Euphemisms are not "facts". That's like the new definition of literal being "figurative". It's not constructive, or informative. It is asinine, as is your statement about the builds and mechanics (which is a helpful thread for new players).

A spell with 2 effects that are that strong and can't be saved, while being a low circle with low cost is lacking in balance.

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High Primate
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Re: Word of Faith changes?

Post by High Primate » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:03 pm

iria_huntress wrote:High Primate has nothing helpful to say.
I will leave it up to mechanics experts to decide whether my points are good.
Euphemisms are not "facts".
I do not know what usage of the word "euphemism" you are relying on, but I do not believe you are using the word correctly, as nothing in my replies to you so far has been euphemistic. On the contrary, I am being rather blunt.
It's not constructive, or informative.
There is information in my thread which could be of use to someone if they applied it, thus making it both constructive and informative.
It is asinine
I have no opposition to this thread being locked, so please, feel free to cut loose with the personal insults.
A spell with 2 effects that are that strong and can't be saved, while being a low circle with low cost is lacking in balance.
If it can be countered, resisted, and/or mitigated through a variety of methods, then it is probably balanced.
Some builds I've worked on (not recommended):
Charisma Battlecleric
"E-Dodge Brycer"

Ecstatic
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Re: Word of Faith changes?

Post by Ecstatic » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:09 pm

Hoo boy.

Implicit in posting suggestions to the board is that you will get feedback that may take the form of "Hey, I think your idea is bad".

When you react to that feedback with personal insults, it doesn't help anyone. Shutting this down with the suggestion that, if you want to have an earnest discussion about this, you take a step back from your position and ease up on the mad.
TANSTAAFL

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