IC Terms For IC Hatred and Prejudice

[Rockstar1984]

So with the recent announcement about the use of the terms "racism" and "racist" on Arelith it got me thinking. Conflict between different races in Forgotten Realms is a regular thing, and if we aren't allowed to say the words "racist" or "racism", then there need to be IC alternatives that mean the same thing but without the rl connotation that it has. In fact I have actually icly used those words for one Bernadette Dolores, who was a Zarite, although that it is the only case in which I've ever used the words ic. I simply because I had no other word to describe "A hatred for every other race that isn't your own". So I believe a discussion that I believe is worth having peacefully of course, is a discussion about words that we can use to describe such things.

Something I was thinking that could possible specifically to describe humans is the term "Zarist". A Zarite is the already established term for someone that worships Zarus, but a Zarist could perhaps be a term for a human (or a half-human in denial) that believes in the Zarite ideology without actually being a Zarite. And similarly, Zarism could be the term for the ideology itself.

And this also begs the question, what are terms that could be used to express hatred towards humans, elves, dwarves, etc.? One thing that Bernadette Dolores made rather infamous when she was around stirring trouble, is the term "knife-ear" to describe elves. So in addition to terms that could be used to icly call prejudice and hateful characters out, it would also be valuable to discuss terms for targeting and insulting characters ic.

There is now a defined policy on the use of terms that have an rl connotation, but "racism" in the sense of humans vs. elves vs. dwarves etc. is still going to be a thing and we need to find new words to use when identifying or perpetuating it. And policy or not, having unique words that make sense in the setting helps with our immersion anyway. So, thoughts? Ideas?

[StandingOnTheShouldersOfGiants]

D and D was never meant to be this immersive. I play a drow who is supposed to hate every other race other than their own. Not once has this come in my rp. I still feel my character is a drow in all regards without having to overtly rp such a topic. Did we not learn from Roland and his nonsense? I would recommend not broaching this subject matter in rp. It is a real life issue and this is a game. If the rp of your character is centered around racism, take a different angle or play a different character. Just my opinion.

[Xanos950]

We don't need to find new terms, we don't need to find new words.
Stop making new problems to solve issues that don't exist.

Simply don't bring in irl politics into the game, it ain't that difficult.


Some elf offend you with their disgusting presence? Call them a "bloody disgusting knife-ear!"

is it racist? heck yea it is, are people going to call you racist now? heck naw, they're most likely going to killbash you though if they can because you're rude a f.

[MoreThanThree]

Knife-ear appears to be from Dragon Age.

[Dr_Hazard89]

Grandpa is a bit of a Snuggybear.

[Kuma]

Star Wars uses the terms chauvinism, humanocentrism, xenophobia, and speciesism, which could all more or less work - chauvinism as a term for specifically male superiority is a modern interpretation, and it's perfectly fine to use it for religious, racial, political, or national bigotry. So "elf supremacist", or whatever, seems p ideal. As for the term to call people like that, well, we already know those: bigot, prejudiced, sectarian, extremist, zealot, asshole...

Further, things like elves wanting to genocide or curtail all humans isn't "real world politics", it's part of the setting, and then you have Hillsfar, which is human supremacist, fiercely xenophobic, and bans all non-humans from entering. HOWEVER, it's also not... you know. The main point. If your character is built around hating other species then you've got a boring one-dimensional character who could probably be replaced with a Pepe meme to much the same effect. "Race conflict" is a tired and overdone trope by this point.

I now more or less consider the addition of Zarus a mistake and a meme scapegoat for transplanting IRL racist terminology and thought onto the various D&D races as caricatures of real-world ethnicities, but at the very least we can acknowledge that the FR setting HAS inter-species conflict, always has and always will, and that to handwave it as RL politics and not allow anyone to delve into that is childish - but also that there is a fine line before it just becomes shallow.

[DM Always This Late]

I had initially written a larger post with my opinion on this subject but I think it would have largely over complicated what I wanted to communicate. So I want to break it into some short points and sort of offer some general statements.

1." prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."

This is the deffintion of racism from the dictionary, and when deciding whether something is racist In DnD I'd consider an example like this,

An ogre claims to a human that the only reason the human wants to kill him is because the human is racist.

That is false. The human does not believe his race is superiour to the ogre, but he knows 99% of ogres would eat him, his wife, dog and kids for a mid morning snack. The human is not being racist, he is being smart.

2. In my opinion the announcement was less "Don't use these words" and more, consider the context in which these words are being used. The post specifically clarifies what situations these words are being used incorrectly. The Hand Of Hummanity is a great example of an IC racist order. As is the common conflict between Elves vs Dwarves.

Racism between races exist in DnD and this isn't explicitly wrong or evil. I would encourage this for Rp situations. I love a good dwarf vs elf squabble. More then that, it is entirely fair to assume X race has X qualities. Like a silver dragon most likely personifies certain qualities because it is in their blood to do so. Where as a red dragon portrays the opposite. It is not racist to make these assumptions

3. This is a tough subject to communicate about because there are a lot of perspectives and opinions. So to provide a statement that properly communicates to everyone's different views is difficult. Luckily Irongrons statement is well rounded, fair, and clear. So my advise would be,

Re-Read Irongrons announcement.
Consider what it means to you. Does it affect you? Or maybe it doesn't?
If you have questions, PM the DM team and we can give you a concrete answers or opinions.

[I hope you got money]

Maybe I misread the statement but i took it completely different then a lot of people in this thread. I read it as "calling someone a racist for having an initial reaction of mistrust and disdain to a tiefling/goblin/half-orc doesn't really fit the setting", not an issue with the word racism. The cool thing (and likely somewhat frustrating thing at times) about playing a good aligned drow or whatever is the expected animosity, and while the server obviously allows you to play an enlightened adventurer that believes in that gobo out to prove he's just one of the dudes, if the majority of the server were like that you are actually taking away from said gobo's player's experience.

[BegoneThoth]

As I understand it, the rule accomplishes almost the opposite of what some people think it's meant to. It's why I initially thought the rule was the dumbest thing I've read on these forums outside of me->elves->sexy elven fun times posts, but now I think it's a great decision.

The concern was people being called, IC, a 'racist' because they didn't treat drow/kobolds/evil things as they would humans or elves. Ergo, people were getting 'shamed' for playing correctly, and it doesn't make sense here. Unlike real life, FR has race deities (among other things) that literally punish members of their race for not acting like murder-jerks all the time, so the term isn't applicable in a derogative context. Additionally, also unlike real life, this information is independently confirmable because you can just (with a Cleric or something) open a portal and literally talk to a God who will just tell you how awful other (or their own) race is.

The term 'racist' may have been used to subvert the actual race-relations thing FR has going. It could have been used as a determent to the setting.

This is also why other synonyms work and are permitted.

[DM Always This Late]

The concern was people being called, IC, a 'racist' because they didn't treat drow/kobolds/evil things as they would humans or elves. Ergo, people were getting 'shamed' for playing correctly, and it doesn't make sense here. Unlike real life, FR has race deities (among other things) that literally punish members of their race for not acting like murder-jerks all the time, so the term isn't applicable in a derogative context. Additionally, also unlike real life, this information is independently confirmable because you can just (with a Cleric or something) open a portal and literally talk to a God who will just tell you how awful other (or their own) race is.

The term 'racist' may have been used to subvert the actual race-relations thing FR has going. It could have been used as a determent to the setting.

This is also why other synonyms work and are permitted.

I think that was an insightful post and describes part of the reasoning for the anouncement in a great way

[Dovesong]

Sociologically, racism is also considered SYSTEMIC oppression. It's not just hating other races, it's using a social position of power against them. That isn't the case here. Cordor is presently led by a human and while the nobility are probably all human they aren't the oppressors of most PCs and if they are, it's socio-economical, not racial.

[Durvayas]

Contrast with Andunor, where the drow and duergar are literally racist by all definitions against virtually everyone that isn't them. Also xenophobic, because they hate everyone from every other settlement.

I prefer the term supremacist to racist though. It has a better ring to it.

[Quoth]

My own two cents:

the reason racist/racism isn't applicable to this setting is because good and evil are also absolutes, there's no grey area if an action is good or evil. killing a drow is -always- a good action regardless of the drows personal alignment, moral code or age and disability. killing a drow that's crippled and unable to defend themselves is a good action. killing a drow newborn is also a good action, killing a drow paladin of Eilistraee is a good action. these things are -monsters- not people which is why you can't be called a racist for doing it.

[One Two Three Five]

killing a drow paladin of Eilistraee

killing a good aligned creature with no subtype is an evil action in d&d but you were doing good for a while there. (There's been decades of discussion on this sort of 'but the race is evil!' thing, but I don't really buy it. Mostly it's used for alignment gotchas anyway.)

Now, killing a falxugon paladin of Torm could arguably be a good act, because devils have the evil subtype and are thus literally a physical manifestation of the concept of evil regardless of alignment. Smite evil, rules as written, should work on such a creature.

[gilescorey]

Devils can never be anything except for Lawful Evil. If they somehow change alignments, they cease to be a devil.

[MoreThanThree]

hygienic removal of problem elements

killing a good aligned creature with no subtype is an evil action in d&d

Nice try, but
1. No Drow are good
2. Eilistraee is a Drow
3. Therefore, she can't have paladins

[Kuma]

1. No Drow are good
2. Eilistraee is a Drow
3. Therefore, she can't have paladins

I mean. Drow can be good with the right Award, and Eilistraee is good-aligned. The REAL issue is that she's Chaotic Good, and thus can't have Paladins. Get your "nice try" gotchas right.

[MoreThanThree]

I mean. Drow can be good with the right Award, and Eilistraee is good-aligned. The REAL issue is that she's Chaotic Good, and thus can't have Paladins. Get your "nice try" gotchas right.

Just a deflection. For all you know, "Eilistraee" is as evil as a real drow.

[Kuma]

I mean. Drow can be good with the right Award, and Eilistraee is good-aligned. The REAL issue is that she's Chaotic Good, and thus can't have Paladins. Get your "nice try" gotchas right.

Just a deflection. For all you know, "Eilistraee" is as evil as a real drow.

sourcebooks can't lie

[MoreThanThree]

sourcebooks can't lie

Appeal to authority fallacy.

[Nitro]

sourcebooks can't lie

Appeal to authority fallacy.

Fallacy fallacy.

[Kuma]

sourcebooks are the literal factual truth of the setting and without them (or if they become of questionable accuracy) then there is no setting

[One Two Three Five]

Is there a Godwin's Law but for people bringing up googled fallacies?

[MoreThanThree]

sourcebooks are the literal factual truth of the setting and without them (or if they become of questionable accuracy) then there is no setting

look at me
I am the setting now

[Kuma]

Is there a Godwin's Law but for people bringing up googled fallacies?

Waher's Law. Also covers general setting ignorance masquerading as knowledge, and sesquipedalean loquaciousness.