Why are we suddenly asking for rebuilds?

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Aodh Lazuli
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Re: Why are we suddenly asking for rebuilds?

Post by Aodh Lazuli » Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:08 pm

Seven Sons of Sin wrote:Why is it that we are able to "bend our roleplay" and not "bend our builds"?
Simply put...

Roleplaying is a process of creating fiction. It deals in the subjective, the ambiguous, the interpretive. It is therefore extremely flexible.

Character builds are absolute, unambiguous, matter of fact, and not open to interpretation.

The first can be bent, because it is a social (negotiable) reality which we decide upon collectively. The second cannot be bent, because you cannot negotiate with the numbers - In order to change what the numbers do, you have to change the numbers themselves.
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flower
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Re: Why are we suddenly asking for rebuilds?

Post by flower » Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:46 pm

The only problém is changes are coming each week almost and sometimes get reversed / cancelled.

And while yes, go play new toon, can be a valid argument, it would really suck if that was the only option left for me after some mechanics update :D

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The GrumpyCat
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Re: Why are we suddenly asking for rebuilds?

Post by The GrumpyCat » Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:20 pm

Before I start I want to say that I totally sympathise with the desire for players to have rebuilds when a change happens to various classes and such. Others have spoken correctly when they say it can be frustrating to have a 'thing that your character is supposed to do well' be utterly nurfed.
I wouldn't want to demean their argument by saying that every player that wants it is just doing so just for powergamy reasons.

The recent rebuilds happened for two reasons
1) As someone already mentioned, the previously existing Knights weren't just in a situation where their build was nurferd, it was absolutly unplayable for some. They just couldn't level! That's not a fair situation to leave characters in, so it's very reasonable to allow them a build, to let them continue with the class they chose.
2) There was a fair bit of salt over the Dragonshaper lot, but more to the point there aren't/weren't that many dragon shaper characters outthere, and so the work level was deemed to be reasonable enough to allow a rebuild in this specific situation.

And really that's the centeral problem. Work Load.

Ultimatly there's two obvious ways of allowing rebuilds.

Automatic or DM oversight.

The Automatic way is far, far less work but would also potentially allow huge abuses. An example:

Person: Bob the Wizard! Joe's been kidnapped by Drow!
Bob: Oh no. And I only have epic spell focus Divination, Transmutation and Abduration. Hrn hold on.
Bob: -relevel. Rebuilds for Epic Spell Focus Conjouration
Bob: Right, now I can save Joe!

That's just one of may examples of weird and silly situations that would come from allowing an automatic rebuild.

So then we look at the option of having some sort of DM oversight.

To allow this we'd have to work out first off what we 'would' and 'would not' allow (and there would end up being people upset that we'd said 'no' to about certain relevels, or who missed the window to have their characters rebuilt if we allowed it only on a temporary basis) and more to the point – it's /Work/. Especialy around times when changes happen.

DM's have a chunk on their plate, we run events, change RPRs, do voice changes, head changes, portrait changes, alignment changes, help report/fix bug, unstick people, give out PRC tokens, answer questions, look into rule breaks, check logs, police rp, oversee player events and more! On top of this we have Real Life to deal with, and on top of that sometimes we want to, y'know... play.

To use the example of the recent Ride change. How many people I wonder took just 8 ranks of ride, thinking that would be enough, and now are regretting their decision? How many people would jump at the option for a rebuild just for the ride change? Ten? Twenty? A hundred even?

How full would my Inbox be, and how bored would I be, going through each and every person, de-leveling them and re-leveling down to the right amount, overseeing that they didn't do anything weird with their rebuild? Maybe I'm sounding terribly lazy here but I have to be honest- I don't really went that extra work on my plate.

The other reason why I'm leery of offering rebuilds is that they don't encourage character circulation. Instead they (at their worst) encourage someone to keep playing the same character, but with no 'cohesion' Year one Joe is a fighter, then he becomes a monk, then the player decides to make him a Rogue, then a Wizard for a giggle... until it's not really a 'character' any more, but a collection of memories and a player who just can't let go.

Don't mistake me – players are free to play a character for as long as they like! But it is good to see characters be played out, cast aside, and new ones appear. It's generally a lot healthier for a server if character cycling happens.

Yes this server allows people to de-level and then rebuild by working their way back up with levels. But at that point someone has to be committed to that idea. Rebuilds can't be done on a whim, but can be done because someone believes that the end goal is worth the reward.
This too shall pass.

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Re: Why are we suddenly asking for rebuilds?

Post by Sab1 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:12 pm

Rebuilds is something I think the server would regret if allowed for more and more reasons. Not to mention as changes are constantly happening so a change today might be redone later.

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Re: Why are we suddenly asking for rebuilds?

Post by Improv » Fri Oct 27, 2017 7:33 pm

A lot is being made of characters who are played past their time. I've never done that, but I have had characters who I've dropped in the mid-teens or early 20s who had storylines going and still had potential but I was frustrated because of class changes (or something else.) That's not fun, and telling people in that situation "just make a new character" is about the last thing they want to hear.

Is there really a dearth of new characters anyway? I am almost never alone in the creation screen when I make what seems to be a new alt experiment weekly, and there are constantly names I've never seen before on the player list. The lure of other cool classes, factions, races, settlements etc is a bigger draw for creating new characters than anything else, I just don't get the logic of suggesting a character screwed by changes ought to be scrapped if they're still active members of the community.

Finally, it's also not fun for factions when active members drop out because they're not happy with their characters mechanically. New characters are great but the most important thing to keep a server going is to keep the players inspired and creative at every level.

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Re: Why are we suddenly asking for rebuilds?

Post by Diilicious » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:19 pm

because its an old as game and you cant afford to be building resentment in any shape or form or eventually you will pollute the whole tiny pool of players that still play and you will end up with a dead server.
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Bashagain
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Re: Why are we suddenly asking for rebuilds?

Post by Bashagain » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:36 pm

The World of Arelith is dynamic and much of it is out of individual player’s control. However when we sign on, we do so with the expectation that at least the characters we built ourselves would behave in a certain way. It is one thing to wake up in the morning and find out that the wild fire in California has wiped out the winery you were schedule to visit next week; it is something very profoundly personal and jarring to learn that your retirement fund portfolio has been changed without your consent by someone other than yourself. Is it hyperbolic to compare Arelith class mechanics change to the retirement fund example? Absolutely. Arelith is just a game, albeit a very deeply engrossing one, but no one’s livelihood is jeopardized with player class changes( thank goodness). Nevertheless, as you manage and develop your characters with the expectation that choosing A will result in B a year or so from now (when the character hits level 30) only to discover that the basis for your choices have been made irrelevant six-months-in due to numerous class mechanics changes, it’s only natural for you to ask for some reparation: In this case, a rebuild.

So why are we suddenly asking for rebuilds? I think we’re asking for rebuilds because we play on a fair and equitable server where DM’s and DEV are exceptionally responsible, where they would acknowledge that breach of good faith occurred upon the impacted players during their admirable and awesome updates.

BTW I am personally against rebuilds. C’mon, it’s a game. Suck it up and play already! ;)
Last edited by Bashagain on Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why are we suddenly asking for rebuilds?

Post by dallion43 » Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:51 pm

Because lvling a PC takes months of real time for average person that can log in for 3-6 hrs a week due to RL, and wants to push some RP into those hrs, if possible.
Because even the most hard to the core RP will fell...unhappy if some of his PC tools/features became different to worse/irrelevant not due to his mistake but due to "sudden change". Yeah, he can suck it up and..RP it..but..the unhappy feeling will came back each time you will miss that missing PC feature.
Yes things can change in years, and a shelved PC from a year ago can be different, but when a class undergo many drastic changes in 2 months without having a "early access" mark near it a one time relevel will make those PCs much happier person ).

Not to mention a group of players that will relevel the PC if even one SP/feat is missing or can be better. I am not sure how big is that group, but even 10 active PCs is 10 active PCs..).


The current relevel policy, in my opinion, is fair for all sides.

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