Why are we suddenly asking for rebuilds?

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I think the amount of forum posts that plead for the ability to rebuild or grandfathering has reached an unprecedented number. The DEVs have even gone so far to add -relevel for PDKs (and while this has been noted as exceptional, I still think back to the warlock changes, and feylock nerfs). People constantly gripe about "mechanical change" affecting their characters, and there have been community and contributor efforts to make the upcoming pipeline more transparent.

But I remain absolutely confused as to why individuals insist that DEV-led change - drastic change - should warrant that your individual play experience requires special attention, or, a rebuild.

I think there's some fundamental issues going on. Maybe the DEVs want to chime in on this, but I'm going to assume DMs/DEVs have an agenda separate from ours.

I am trying to understand why there seems to be a significantly vocal group of Arelith that thinks rebuilds are a thing. They never were really a thing - only when there was a bug or a glitch. We've had significant "buffs" and "nerfs" before, in the change to itemization, mechanics, or mobs before. We've had the pendulum swing drastically, from fighter/WMs being useless, to battleclerics ruling all, to epic wizards being the best, but never has their been an insistence that you should get a rebuild.

Now, granted, a lot of the change in the mechanical ecosystem occurred gradually, as people caught on to new tricks and systems. While this seems to different from an update Announcement that says, "significant changes to Dragonshape", I think the principle remains the same.

And that principle, is that Arelith is a place of dynamic change. The Liberated Territories popped up overnight. Benwick fell in a day. Cordor expands/contracts in the matter of minutes. Yet, there is never such vitriol there, compared to when contributors target class mechanics.

I find this particularly incongruous with the current Arelith because leveling has never been easier, and more exciting. AdventureXP is a great (and addicting) system that rewards exploration, crafting, boss-slaying - and adventure. You can catapult through the low-levels with greater ease, and in a matter of time, gain the necessary experience to go almost anywhere and be self-sufficient - both are vital to engaging in a variety of roleplay.

Yet, a rebuild still feels warranted.

I think it also goes to the idea that when you click "Create Character", and plan out your 30-level build, there is somehow a sense of entitlement that your pre-made character will be able to achieve, unhindered, the fulfillment of your plan. It seems somehow preposterous that we sign up for a dynamic world, but not dynamic characterization.

Why is it that we are able to "bend our roleplay" and not "bend our builds"?

Maybe the discourse on building has seeped too deeply into our pores, maybe the concern about "mechanical optimization" has become too predominant - or maybe there's a greater sense of self-entitlement. But anyone who has been around long enough should know (and appreciate) that nothing on Arelith is taken for granted, and that's what makes it such an exciting place.

Ride ranks aren't safe, Kensai isn't safe, Dragonshaper isn't safe, Monks aren't safe, casters aren't safe, scimitars aren't safe. When you go through the Portal entry, you're subjecting yourself to the gameworld, and in a short manner of time, can be changed drastically. Maybe we need to post a disclaimer somewhere now.

I think there's steps we can take that reward more fluid build paths, but that's a discussion for another time.

But I suppose I should reiterate the topic question:

Why are we suddenly asking for rebuilds?

[gilescorey]

because if i can't play the same character for eight years..... why play at all.......?

[Dr_Hazard89]

Games are for fun. When it is not fun, you stop playing. Sometimes compromises need to be made to ensure people are still having fun and feeling good about their time investment, or they will quit.

[Hunter548]

because if i can't play the same character for eight years..... why play at all.......?

t. Local man who has never played longer than three months on one character.

[CookieMonster]

I couldn't possibly agree more with what you are saying Seven.

I had a Staff-Warlock that Overnight turned into something very very different, I still played it to my hearts content because I enjoyed the RP of the Character more than the build.

I had a Fighter / WM that was Mundane, to suddenly gain 15 AC, 5 AB and the possability for a lot more SKILLS and ABILITIES on Bronze weapons.. To then go back to being Mundane.. I carried on playing that Character to my hearts content..

I have a BattleCleric that is still probably oneof the strongest Characters on the server, yet I was not happy with the RP and I can't even bring myself to log into that Character now to see if things have changed for me...

This is an RP Server, a majority of these PvP-You-Dead Builds last until they can be rolled for a Major Gift, some never even get into PvP and some become so nutorious for doing so that they are valued so lowly at what they can bring to the table RP wise, they are simply excluded from things...

Yes, it is nice to have a Character that can force their opinions on other people via PvP, it's nice to have a Character that when someone tried to force their opinion on you, can just shut down that RP via PvP... But what the hell is the point in playing if you never experience "Balance"

In so many scenarios, I would have Rosalie be beaten and captured just so that the other players had their oppurtunity to win, to let their plan unfold and RP things the way they want to and I would absolutely, posatively enjoy myself 9/10 times because loosing is just as much fun as winning... In some cases more so.

[Cortex]

Generally I try to avoid situations where a full rebuild would be necessary, but it's not guaranteed.

PDK was an extraordinaire case because requirements and scaling was changed altogether, which if left unattended could result in characters with PDK levels not able to take more levels in PDK.

How I personally view each rework I've overseen:

Kensai: A straight buff. A side effect of people that built toward the haste and discipline being left behind.

Barbarian: I did what was possible to keep CON relevant, but at the same time, give reason to not neglect AC. I imagine a few barbarians felt outdated by this, but not marginally so to the point they'd require a rebuild to be functional.

Dragonshape: Druid/monk remains relevant, but people may opt to delevel to 21 to pick other feats over Great Wisdom and DS.

[One Two Three Five]

In the simplest terms I can put it? For a good, solid.. gosh, eight years? Longer? Mechanical changes were mostly few and far between. Once giga left there was very little, and when Mithreas picked up it was a while before we got warlocks. Then totems, then the ranger specs, and a couple others I'm probably forgetting. But, and I know you were around for this: The vast majority of mithreas-introduced subclasses were, like, one and done.

So, if I made an Original Fiendlock, With Staff (I played one of the first ones neener neener), I could be sure that they had more or less the same chassis for a good long time. (In fact, I think it was.. gosh, 3-5 years? before the original 'staff with animate dead, gate, chain lightning, etc' warlocks got turned into the first iteration of infinicasting warlocks, wasn't it?)

So, for a long time, for most of the server's history, rebuilds weren't really that necessary. Changes to classes were usually additions that were, again, one and done (see: kensai, and how it stayed the same for so long before the new team). So you could make a character and not worry about much other than like, small spell tweaks or new items changing the meta. Then! The new team took over!

Our devs/contributors are dilligent, comparatively speedy, and- this is important- there's more of them now than I think I've ever seen on Arelith. I think we have more contributors than most NWN servers combined at this moment. But this does mean one thing: In a span of 3-4 years, there have been more iterations on certain things than there have been in the better part of a decade.

For instance:
Barbarian's gone through two, three? Near-complete revamps over the last year or two.

Feylock got almost completely rewritten, twice, in the span of three weeks over the summer.

Kensai's gotten two do-overs recently.

Purple Dragon Knight? Two major revamps.

It's not even about having the best powerbuild, which I find to be reductive and fairly misrepresentative of one's fellow players, it's about the fact that in the past couple of years, we've moved from an environment where you can play the same palemaster for nine years with little to no changes, to one where your character's entire ability to perform the tasks for which they were built, roleplayed, and written as able to do, can get removed overnight. And where once that change happens, there's nothing saying that if you delevel yourself down to 3 or whatever to fix it, you wont check the forum a week later and see that the change was reverted and replaced with a different change, invalidating what you did again.

It's about not wasting time and being able to play effective characters, because as much as the 'but roleplay' (we KNOW its an rp server, stop bringing that up for mechanical discussions) mentions want to ignore it, NWN is an adventure RPG based on a dungeon crawl tabletop game based off of wargames with non-existent roleplay, and being an adventurer is an important part of the entire deal. And you can't be an adventurer if the class you played needs dex one day and wisdom the next. (hyperbole) None of this is to say the dev/contributor team should in any way stop, just that..

Okay, look at it this way. There are two ways a huge change can go, right?
1. Change happens. No rebuilds. People told to suck it up, make a new char, or quit, by various snarky forumgoers and essentially, the same by the dev team, through silence or inaction. This causes a forumstorm that sucks up dev/contributor/admin resources, see the dragonshape change, foments player dissent, and might actually lose us people.

2. Change happens. Rebuilds. People are maybe displeased but they also don't have to worry about a character they've worked hard on getting turned to slime because of a random mechanical change they had no way of knowing about. Less forumstorms, less self-righteous rebuild-askers are giant babies I'm a better roleplayer threads.

And also, the new team made a -relevel command over the summer for the feylock change, which means that the (once precious, back in the jj/artos/giga and then mithreas eras) dev/dm resources don't need to get spent hand releveling people, which was one of the arguments I saw against it back in the day.

Also, like, we were the only NWN server that didn't do them. Seriously. get with the times.

Why is it that we are able to "bend our roleplay" and not "bend our builds"?

This has never been how NWN works, is why. A certain amount of fun for most people is playing a character than can do things with other people, and Arelith's pve, while fairly easy, is more fun if you aren't air-swinging a shitty wifflebat while other people actually contribute. A pile of thrown together feats might work for things like a pure-classed wizard, but for people who don't have 9th level casting to fall back on, bad/random feat, stat, and class-combination choices are the difference between a fun and relaxing video game time, and deciding that combat is too much of a slog and doing something else. No one's under any delusions that this isn't a roleplay server, so I don't understand why some of us seem to be under the delusions that this is some sort of High Theatre Simulation to be experienced as Purely As Possible and not a video game to have fun on for a couple hours a day.

[Improv]

If a class is mucked with why can't the players be allowed to keep up? That doesn't seem such an outlandish question to me. It's pretty standard gaming practice actually.

I'm not sure gimping existing characters is how you get people to not play the same character for 8 years. Taking away their characters viability is how you get people to quit in frustration. Cool and fresh changes to an old game and a vibrant community is how you get people to make alts, which are two things Arelith certainly has.

Anyway as it's obviously something that's happening, the question isn't whether rebuilds should be allowed, it's "to whom." I think any time there's an update for any class involving feats and stat requirements they ought to have a window of time where they get one free relevel, that seems like a fair limitation to me. Even in cases where the changes seem minor, because a minor change to one character might not be to another.

[Manabi]

Why is it that we are able to "bend our roleplay" and not "bend our builds"?

This has never been how NWN works, is why. A certain amount of fun for most people is playing a character than can do things with other people, and Arelith's pve, while fairly easy, is more fun if you aren't air-swinging a shitty wifflebat while other people actually contribute. A pile of thrown together feats might work for things like a pure-classed wizard, but for people who don't have 9th level casting to fall back on, bad/random feat, stat, and class-combination choices are the difference between a fun and relaxing video game time, and deciding that combat is too much of a slog and doing something else. No one's under any delusions that this isn't a roleplay server, so I don't understand why some of us seem to be under the delusions that this is some sort of High Theatre Simulation to be experienced as Purely As Possible and not a video game to have fun on for a couple hours a day.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. This is the most truthful thing I've seen on the forums in some time. I am giving you one internet point for having the courage to actually type this out.

My input:

For some people, getting to level 20 is no big deal and can be done in a week or less, others may take months to get here, it is all individualized. If you spent 3 months getting to level 20, and your character is all the sudden changed to a bag of dirt that will cripple anything other than a 8xp circlegrind, then you're not going to have much fun, at least, most people won't. I know some people care about the RP experience with adventuring, but I would say a damned majority of us see adventuring as a trivial task, regardless of what sort of buzzes and whirrs you put on it. Going into that cave, the same cave you've been going to for real life years, is still a drag 100%. leveling sucks. Leveling sucks worse for people who actually care about the role play experience in adventure.

Here are some reasons why
1. You have to find people who are williing to role play adventures by bringing all the props there (Tents, fires, whatsayyou) and are willing to actually role play more than an emote every 5 minutes for the sake of emoting. Maybe some people only play with a certain crowd, but the majority of players DO NOT do this. They are on a highway of literal dung doing the same thing they've been doing for years for a level, and they know the enemies and traps 100%, not because they want to know, because they have just done it so much - I'm not even talking about the haste-run circlegrind types, I'm talking about your average player. To the RP heavy person mentioned above, this is a rarity outside of their circle.

2. Other players are silently sighing that they have to do something other than mindlessly click a button and hitting their hotbar for that emote/phrase. Don't throw stones at me here. If you think that a "small minority" of players behave in this way you're lying to yourself or stick to a select crowd. It's not even a bad thing, really. Some people have their "RP" time and their "EXP" time. RP time is when they are developing their characters, bringing life into the server, and doing all that wonderful crap that makes Arelith great. EXP time is wanting to get some damned EXP so you can level up some before you go back to actually role playing. Sitting around talking in a dungeon puts these players at a disadvantage because not only are they getting less exp, they run the risk of other EXP parties coming along and then there being a huge mess that sometimes ends in PVP (It's unfortunate, but it happens.) Maybe not everyone gets this and they are totally in it for the role play, and for those players I give you an internet point - but that isn't for everyone. Dungeons and bosses are simply a way to ensure you're character isn't going to get ganked as they climb their way up the faction ladders. I went off on a little tangent, but what I'm trying to say here is that their style of play doesn't fit the majority of the server.

3. Roleplayers typically have builds that aren't suited for dungeons. The interesting thing about Arelith is that it encourages role play and role play builds, but the dungeons do not. Some of them are actually pretty damned hard even for an optimal party of mechanically optimal characters.Not only do they have to deal with having to reduce their fun-rp time by being around subpar dungeon dwellers like me, but they also have to find a party that is willing to accept their less than supbar build. Now, I've personally never done this, but I know people who have and I don't fault them for it. Having to use a raise-dead scroll on someone who is constantly *looks around the corner for something, and looks to the party* "I don't see anything, what do you think we should do?" gets expensive.

Notice: I am not in any way dissing these players - I actually have more respect for them than anyone and I would not hate on them in any way if they joined my party and would actually give them my 100% IC moments for being awesome. Notice over-

So, why shouldn't get they get a chance to rebuild their characters? Those people who are 100% immersion only have it very very rough for the balance police to screw them over and undo months of trying to make a good character while giving solid RP. All of the sudden, their RP build is weaker than it was, and they are a faction leader with enemies because they are solid at RP. Rebuilds don't mess with the people it should mess with, it messes with the people Arelith needs more of.

[Cortex]

Ultimately, I don't make the call.

[BegoneThoth]

I don't see anything wrong with a rebuild when there's a major change, assuming the goal is to just be almost the same build just an updated version to reflect new balance changes.

Then again you can just de-level down and do most of that shit yourself.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

PDK was an extraordinaire case because requirements and scaling was changed altogether, which if left unattended could result in characters with PDK levels not able to take more levels in PDK.

And also, the new team made a -relevel command over the summer for the feylock change, which means that the (once precious, back in the jj/artos/giga and then mithreas eras) dev/dm resources don't need to get spent hand releveling people, which was one of the arguments I saw against it back in the day.

@OP
Because the staff has established that there are some instances where mechanical changes completely shaft whole swaths of people in a way that leaves a permanent bitter taste in their mouths- and then they made a -relevel command so they didn't have to do a bunch of re-levels by hand.

It's not my call but I happen to agree that Dragonshape is one of these (since you now need up to five less epic feats to get to it). There's no genuine argument to be made that changing the requirements for a build by up to five epic feats (or 5 stat points) isn't a big enough deal to merit a re-level if PDK and feylock merit one.

[JediMindTrix]

Because we should've been getting them for character ruining changes a long, long time ago. #headcanon

[Sab1]

Well lfor one if a rebuild was allowed after every change the dms would be doing nothing but releveling people and ensuring they weren't making drastic changes with the releveling.

[JediZero]

This is the big thing I'm curious about.

Why do the DMs and Dev teams not trust the playerbase?

Like if someone overnight changes from a hardcore paladin to a wizard, people will notice and monocles will be knocked askew, reports will be filed, and pain shall be dispensed.

[Iceborn]

I don't think that full rebuilds should be allowed unless in exceptional circumstances or done entirely from zero (by deleting the character and starting again).

But I do think rebuilds should be a thing. Characters change. Mechanics change. Some people level to 21 and roll, others stick around till their stories are complete. Some people find reason to stay with the same character for a long, long time - some of these get old fast, some are continually reinventing themselves in interesting ways.

I did suggest that there should be a command that drops you as many levels as you want and gives half of the experience back in adventure XP. Even considering the amazing changes with the -adventure mode, I still believe this should be possible. I don't see why it -isn't- possible.

[One Two Three Five]

I did suggest that there should be a command that drops you as many levels as you want and gives half of the experience back in adventure XP. Even considering the amazing changes with the -adventure mode, I still believe this should be possible. I don't see why it -isn't- possible.

I love this

[Dr_Hazard89]

I did suggest that there should be a command that drops you as many levels as you want and gives half of the experience back in adventure XP.

I like your suggestion!

[Improv]

Honestly casters who de-level themselves through making wands and scrolls can do that already, can't they? Maybe the XP lost through changing deity could also be refunded in adventure XP to open this possibility to everyone.

I still think any big class changes that muck with feats and stats ought to offer a free, no XP loss relevel. This isn't a massive community, people who abuse it would get noticed, and the amount of abuse you'd potentially even see is massively exaggerated (as is the amount of DM time it would take, especially if automated.)

[rookie]

You can't actually delevel from making a wand etc, it will fail and say you lack the XP. You could feasibly craft a bunch of wands, deity switch, rinse and repeat. Though you're going to burn through a ton of gold if you need to drop from epics down to the teens.

[hmm2]

I imagine a few barbarians felt outdated by this, but not marginally so to the point they'd require a rebuild to be functional.

Axe went from Killing a Fighter/wm/rogue in a 1v1 without issue,
to being Killed by one without issue.

hence my request for a -relevel

[Black Wendigo]

If the devs and DMs don't trust the playerbase (and I am not saying this is true), it is because teh playerbase has shown that it cannot be trusted to do the right thing. After over e;leven years on this server I can tell you that many times things have been changed because players abused things the way they wre. Classic example: Mechanical exiles were implemented directly in response because people kept ignoring exile by RP (They would just stand in there in front of the exiler and basically blow him off. Saw this happen A LOT.) Other things were also implemented ebcause people were basically misbehaving and something needed to be done.

More on topic. I see nothing wrong with wanting to delevel. I see everything wrong with asking the devs and DMs to make it easy for one to do so just because one wants it that way. I do not agree with the arguement that delevilling is necessary because changes to classes and races etc "ruin" chars. They don't: however they can radically change them. I almost stopped playing Deathpaw because of multiple changes that did just this. I now see that i did not need to delevel, rebuild or stop playing him: that I could simply develop him differently. (Further I came to see that the changes were indeed necessary. Example Haste should never have been part of the kensai build, so it had to be removed.) I am a firm believer that chars do not become obsolete just because thier builds become obsolete or less that newer ones because of changes.

Rather than relevelling I suggest making a new char . This give some the opportunity to create a background more appropriate to the changes, rather than having to attempt to shoehorn a previous char into a sometimes awkward fit.

[Liareth]

One Two Three Five hit the nail on the head in regards to how I perceive it. If there's a minor tweak then no rebuild. If there's a nerf that allows you in your current build to remain competent, just weaker, then no rebuild. If there's a fundamental change up the class, mechanically or thematically (rogues now use str, or, rogues are now swashbucklers), then rebuild.

[Dunshine]

There will be an announcement on this very topic soon.

[Peppermint]

Were it up to me, the only update that would've received a rebuild was PDK. Namely, because requirements/scaling change, meaning previous PDKs couldn't even take levels anymore. That's kind of a raw deal.

I never viewed the rest as necessary, and speaking for me personally, I feel they set a bad precedent. CON feylocks are still good. WIS druids are still good. etc.

YMMV, I guess.