A discussion about Discords (and stuff)

[azrael_athing]

As I see it, the Discord-factions, work quite much like the factionsmenue in game, without being horrible to work with. i.e the factions menue in game has a horrible message-system and planning things through it is to be honest, quite a mess.

Now, thus far thus good. Discord is simply filling the function of the -factionsmenue ingame, and this is not a problem.


It becomes a problem, when you are using Discord as described above, to:
1. Exclude people from planing, times of events etc.
2. Share IC information or actual RP.
3. Combat tactics.

I think all off this was covered above however, so I won't go into details why this is problematic unless urged too do so.

[BegoneThoth]

Don't see how any anti discord/skype rules are enforceable at all.

[TimeAdept]

The only thing server administration should concern themselves with over discord/skype/etc, IMO, is:
1: metagaming
2: proven harmful harassment and slander of players.

the first for obvious reasons and the second because wild unchecked crap going around about players on discord will do a huge amount of harm.

[Wytchee]

They have there pros and cons.

Pro: can make OOC friends, organize and collaborate, etc.
Cons: tends to foster an "us v. them" mentality rather than a cooperative one.

I run a small discord server specifically for Arelith players and while it hasn't happened yet, I'm pretty strict when it comes to the sharing of IC information. I find that small groups like these are great so long as they aren't related to any specific faction, because faction-related discord groups can get really tribalistic and nasty. We all just kind of do our own thing, and if someone has an idea for some good RP it's brought up and we can arrange it ICly. But plotting is explicitly against the rules, as is the sharing of sensitive IC information.

[Mr_Rieper]

This is how we naturally work, as humans. I'm not even kidding, take a look at any organisation or large group of people and you will see, to no surprise, that it is made up of sub-groups of varying sizes. It happens at your work. It happens in your suburb, in your city. It even happens in-game without the factions menu. It's a basic social function to seek out and form groups with likeminded people.

That being said, it's not a basic human function to be a vitriolic and asinine member of these communities.

Anyway, I'll say in Discord's defense, my horizons have been broadened by it. I've grown very fond of some people in this community, and I'm opposed to the use of voice chat to gain an edge in PvP. The ability to discuss things OOC has been both a blessing and a curse, but that might just be me and information paralysis. I've gained a deeper insight into the game, and I can't really fault that.

To me, this is natural and if things remained balanced, it just represents another way that people can be introduced to the community and RETAINED within it. I've had a few people that I've introduced to the game stop playing, because they didn't know what they were doing wrong. But after talking on Discord, helping them with builds and ideas, a few of them have given it another shot and stuck with it.

The fact that most of our community is gathered in several different Discord servers can actually be quite powerful, if opportunities are used properly. It can also be quite disastrous, if the standard is not set and adhered to. Toxic servers and communities should be condemned, if they are way out of line. Discord, like many other things, is just a tool. Your attitude can determine just how dangerous or useful that tool can be.

[Borgian Oligarchy]

Guess what we had twenty years ago? ICQ!!!!! We used it while we rped on Ultima Online.

Chats have existed long before Arelith because we like to talk to other humans. That is our nature.

There's no such thing as chat ruining Arelith... Arelith sucked in some ways long before Discord or Skype or anything else. And the rp wasn't all that great 12-years ago. Let's be honest. We had tieflings marrying paladins and a rabid sociopath wreaking havoc through the Abyss. We just didn't know any better and somehow look at the past with some lense of "Ahhh those were the good old days". As if somehow the farts of the past don't stink anymore and we forgot that a lot of people were letting them off.

The only thing that ever ruins Arelith is people. You could have zero Discord, no tells, and humans would continue to make aspects of Arelith suck. And it won't even be the same human for everyone. Each of us has a different type of human that makes us think that an interaction was bad ergo - Arelith, in that moment, sucks.

It's not Discord, it's people. Horrible stinking rotten people who don't do/say/feel/think/act in the exact manner that our brain dictates they should in any given instance.

[DM Always This Late]

I think a lot of these posts have started to miss the mark For what the discussion was meant to be. More then a few suggest that those not supporting discord = not socialising as a human. That's not the case. Others paint discord to be the root of all evil, which isn't true either.

I'd refocus and say that the argument is predominantly about if Ussing an OOC chat like discord, is benefiticial or damaging to RP or immersion.

There's been good examples of when it's bad and when it is good.

I think a fair conclusion to draw would be the following

Do what works for you. If Discord helps you network and you enjoy it then use it. If you find Discord is a distraction, or detracts from your enjoyment of RP then don't use it. Furthermore I think these posts raise awareness about making sure discord does not become the basis for your IC actions and highlights some dangers that would be good to avoid When using OOC chat in an RP environment.

No one is blaming discord for anything, as many have rightfully said OOC chat has always been available in one way or another. The question is how to use it. And I think theres a lot of good opiona here on both sidea of the table.

[Dr_Hazard89]

I think a lot of these posts have started to miss the mark For what the discussion was meant to be. More then a few suggest that those not supporting discord = not socialising as a human. That's not the case. Others paint discord to be the root of all evil, which isn't true either.

I'd refocus and say that the argument is predominantly about if Ussing an OOC chat like discord, is benefiticial or damaging to RP or immersion.

There's been good examples of when it's bad and when it is good.

I think a fair conclusion to draw would be the following

Do what works for you. If Discord helps you network and you enjoy it then use it. If you find Discord is a distraction, or detracts from your enjoyment of RP then don't use it. Furthermore I think these posts raise awareness about making sure discord does not become the basis for your IC actions and highlights some dangers that would be good to avoid When using OOC chat in an RP environment.

No one is blaming discord for anything, as many have rightfully said OOC chat has always been available in one way or another. The question is how to use it. And I think theres a lot of good opiona here on both sidea of the table.

Well said :3

[Aodh Lazuli]

I'd refocus and say that the argument is predominantly about if Ussing an OOC chat like discord, is benefiticial or damaging to RP or immersion.

In answer... Neither. Using discord is not beneficial, nor is it damaging to rp immersion.

It serves a purpose completely divorced from ig
RP immersion. Community building and ooc communication between players (note, not characters), has sweet f' all to do with roleplay immersion.

Suggesting otherwise displays a distinct lack of trust in the players' ability to draw the line between IC and occ concerns.

[Dovesong]

I'd refocus and say that the argument is predominantly about if Ussing an OOC chat like discord, is benefiticial or damaging to RP or immersion.

In answer... Neither. Using discord is not beneficial, nor is it damaging to rp immersion.

It serves a purpose completely divorced from ig
RP immersion. Community building and ooc communication between players (note, not characters), has sweet f' all to do with roleplay immersion.

Suggesting otherwise displays a distinct lack of trust in the players' ability to draw the line between IC and occ concerns.

This, and what Borgian said. I've been here since roughly 2008. Online RPing well before (think 1999 or so) and there has always been a thing to allow people to connect, be it singly, or in groups. Voice optional (I use it about once every six months simply to BS and verbally meme. We don't use it while IG except the occasional drink-n-grind fest)

[DM Always This Late]

There are a few posts here that show examples of situations where discord has been abused as well a highlighting many often reoccuring situations where Discord has been used in a negative manner that harmed or impaced Rp and in game situations. As a DM I know of many of these.

So to shrug off multiple sources that have pointed out negatives as people who are simply untrusting and making a blanket statment that OOC chats have no impact without offering reasoning seems baseless.

As also mentioned, there have been a lot of people who point out good benefits of discord and situations where discord was a boon to both OOC relations aswell as IN game coordination and I think those points are very valid and are great examples.

Ultimately I'd just restate what I already concluded above

Do what works for you. If Discord helps you network and you enjoy it then use it. If you find Discord is a distraction, or detracts from your enjoyment of RP then don't use it. Furthermore I think these posts raise awareness about making sure discord does not become the basis for your IC actions and highlights some dangers that would be good to avoid When using OOC chat in an RP environment.

No one is blaming discord for anything, as many have rightfully said OOC chat has always been available in one way or another. The question is how to use it. And I think theres a lot of good opiona here on both sidea of the table

.

[Dreams]

Discord has nothing to do with how I RP really.

[Dovesong]

Because we also said that the platform is not the issue. The players are. Problems in RP almost always boil down to one of a couple things:
Misunderstandings/miscommunications (our OOC understandings, as opposed to IC understandings, miss and we don't seek clarity. The fact that we are a global community makes this even more likely given translation errors)
Problem players.These exist, and almost every player is one, at one time or another. I am certainly not exempt, nor is anyone I can think of. Be it youth, or cognitive ability, or simply being a jerk, we all have times we are not our best, and the length of time varies.

None of this is caused by OOC platforms like Discord. And OOC echo chambers can happen anywhere. Including ingame.

[WanderingPoet]

I'd refocus and say that the argument is predominantly about if Ussing an OOC chat like discord, is benefiticial or damaging to RP or immersion.

In answer... Neither. Using discord is not beneficial, nor is it damaging to rp immersion.

It serves a purpose completely divorced from ig
RP immersion. Community building and ooc communication between players (note, not characters), has sweet f' all to do with roleplay immersion.

Suggesting otherwise displays a distinct lack of trust in the players' ability to draw the line between IC and occ concerns.

In a perfect world, this is true - the community on any server needs to exist for it to thrive, and OOC communication helps get things done to the greater enjoyment of all, especially across varying timezones.

There have been however examples of times that players (new or otherwise) have felt(or outright told) that they were /required/ to participate in discord or they would not get anywhere IC. This I feel is 'bad' and a misuse of the tool in a way that negatively impacts the server. This suggests that we're not in a perfect world where the community building/ooc communication tools between players are as diverged as perhaps they should be for some communities.

Even if the player is wrong and they are not /required/ to participate, the feeling is what breeds a negativity that can drive people away as Irongron's post suggested and other players' posts suggested drove them away from IC communities. As long as the tools are kept in mind and felt as an enhancement rather than a requirement then they're useful tools, rather generators of negativity.

[Dovesong]

And that, again, boils down to a problem with players. One that should be properly reported and addressed by the team. Making threads here is good for awareness and debate, but results come from actionable reports.

[Aodh Lazuli]

So to shrug off multiple sources that have pointed out negatives as people who are simply untrusting and making a blanket statment that OOC chats have no impact without offering reasoning seems baseless.

Allow me to clarify, then.

As far as my observation of this goes, the majority of the negative impact discord chats have on IG roleplay has nothing to do with the discord chats themselves, but instead has far more to do with the external perception of what a discord chat may or may not be "doing".

It is easy to believe that because a discord chat exists, and that chat discusses inRP happenings, the objective of those discussions must therefore be to influence those inRP happenings in line with the agenda of the players in said chat. This more often than not mistaken belief, has a MASSIVE impact on the IG behaviour and RP immersion of those who hold it. Instead of taking each encounter on its own merits, they are instead veiwed through a rather fearful and distrusting lens - Altering the behaviour of the fearful and distrusting player, and thus changing the RP dynamic as a whole.

Much of the negative impact discord and the suchlike has, can be mitigated or outright nullified by players simply choosing to believe and trust that "no, they are not using their ooc communication to influence IG events."

The accusation of clique-forming in-group mentality, is an extremely self-fulfilling one - Of course, those who are accused of something will react as a group, thereby confirming the accusation in this particular case.

Player: "You are an exclusive clique and you are using your OOC communication to influence IG events! Additionally, you dislike me!"

Discord chat members in unison: Eyeroll "No we are not!"

Player: "See how you all spoke together with a single unified voice! See how you rolled your eyes when I spoke! You prove my point!"

This particular dynamic serves only to cause the members of that discord chat to actually ostracise the individual levelling the accusation (on the grounds of it being offensive and baseless) and provides a colossal disincentive to RPing with that individual, thus rendering the accusation true. But in actuality, the person who acted on their OOC attitudes and assumptions, is the one who made the accusation in the first place, contributing to or creating a loss of IG immersion for all parties.

tl;dr: This thread reinforces the behaviour you dislike, and turns it from a percieved thing only, into a fact. Without discussions such as this (and the veiled general broad-stroke accusation contained within), discord and other such things could simply be as they are intended - distinct and seperate from IG interaction.


[Edited for clarity and an avalanche of typos]

[Giftstoff]

Discord has allowed for better networking and grouping up than at any other time in Areliths history. Better than Tells, better than Skype, better than anything. The damage you can do in a server like Areliths that is so large, is great, and HAS been proven in the past to cause this damage due to a small group of people.

It only takes 1 person yelling a lie to spread that lie to hundreds of people.

1 Person yelling a server secret to metagame it across everyone.

1 Person giving up a name to ruin an entire plot.

These things could never have happened on this scale before, now they can, and do. You can't spread information like that across 100 tells without there being a massive trail of evidence. Nobody had skype groups with hundreds of players in them. Now you can hide behind an anonymous mask on a discord group of...how many people are in there now?

[Mr_Rieper]

There have been however examples of times that players (new or otherwise) have felt(or outright told) that they were /required/ to participate in discord or they would not get anywhere IC. This I feel is 'bad' and a misuse of the tool in a way that negatively impacts the server. This suggests that we're not in a perfect world where the community building/ooc communication tools between players are as diverged as perhaps they should be for some communities.

It goes both ways. There are about a hundred new players joining every month. A HUNDRED. How many of those do you think we retain? I can tell you - it's not much.

Arelith is a fantastic place that sucks people in, but you have to be in the right frame of mind. Or a giant nerd that is willing to keep trying until you found something worth staying for. There's a barrier for entry here, created not because we are unfriendly, but because Arelith has bottomless potential for depth.

So my experience with what you are saying here has been the precise opposite. People have given Arelith a try and not been able to enjoy it because they don't know what they are doing. They reach out to people on the Discord servers and get the help they need, and stay on the server. I can think of two solid (and recent) examples of this. So as we've established, it is just a tool, which can be used for good or bad things.

Sometimes being invited to a discord server can chase you away from Arelith. Sometimes, it can pull you deeper and encourage you to play more. There are examples of both. What does that tell you?

**EDIT** Factions that abuse their members generally don't last very long. What you described is somebody trying to impose things on their faction members. As Aodh Lazuli said, that's not a problem with Discord. The problem lies between the computer and the chair.

[Dovesong]

Discord has allowed for better networking and grouping up than at any other time in Areliths history. Better than Tells, better than Skype, better than anything. The damage you can do in a server like Areliths that is so large, is great, and HAS been proven in the past to cause this damage due to a small group of people.

It only takes 1 person yelling a lie to spread that lie to hundreds of people.

1 Person yelling a server secret to metagame it across everyone.

1 Person giving up a name to ruin an entire plot.

These things could never have happened on this scale before, now they can, and do. You can't spread information like that across 100 tells without there being a massive trail of evidence. Nobody had skype groups with hundreds of players in them. Now you can hide behind an anonymous mask on a discord group of...how many people are in there now?

Most of this is blatantly false.

While there are a lot of people in Arelth's primary discord, I can promise (having been there) that most smacktalk regarding players that's actually judged to be harmful is stopped, and removed, and the player sternly if respectfulky told that was not permitted. The admin and mods are not from one social group/clique, but from many, and chosen for their proven abilities to act and judge relatively fairly. Some are my friends, some are just acquaintances, but I can say without reservation they do a good job.

As for Skype groups, yes. You can absolutely have large ones. I have been in some with 50+ active people, and it's far less moderateable than Discord. Rumours are part and parcel of the human condition. We all do it. One rumor has spread like wildfire before, and has not needed Discord to do it.

Additionally, Discord and such areas are actionable by the DM team if it's affecting our environs here.

Again, as both Aodh and Rieper have agreed, this boils down to player behaviour. Not where it's done.

[Giftstoff]

Discord has allowed for better networking and grouping up than at any other time in Areliths history. Better than Tells, better than Skype, better than anything. The damage you can do in a server like Areliths that is so large, is great, and HAS been proven in the past to cause this damage due to a small group of people.

It only takes 1 person yelling a lie to spread that lie to hundreds of people.

1 Person yelling a server secret to metagame it across everyone.

1 Person giving up a name to ruin an entire plot.

These things could never have happened on this scale before, now they can, and do. You can't spread information like that across 100 tells without there being a massive trail of evidence. Nobody had skype groups with hundreds of players in them. Now you can hide behind an anonymous mask on a discord group of...how many people are in there now?

Most of this is blatantly false.

With a ton of personal experience on exactly this, I can say that it is absolutely not false.
Its very real.

[Dovesong]

Except you're ignoring that your assertion that Discord is somehow necessary for this, that PLAYERS CANNOT BE MEAN on the same scale without it, still is not true. People have positively amazing skill at spreading rumour (truth or falsehood of it notwithstanding) and drawing together. It's what we do. It's part of our makeup as social animals. We find ways, be it talking, phone calls, text, email, //chat ingame, you name it. This is not a new phenomenon by any stretch. People have been making these assertions since BBSes and ICQ were the mainstay of social interaction online, and nothing has changed.

People who want their voices and opinions heard will make them heard. Again, and again, and again,this is a people issue. Not a program issue.

[Nyuunie]

Generally, I use Discord as a means to arrange RP with people in drastically different timezones. I'm a West Coaster, so I have a tendency to have the exact opposite schedule of people in AUS and EU. This isn't to say the RP is scripted (because that's boring af), but that it's a hell of a lot more convenient to arrange a window of time to be available for these people - especially when leading a faction.

As an added bonus, I get to make friends and talk to people when I'm not in game about things that aren't Arelith. For example; dumping youtube links/spotify playlists/memes into a channel.

Yeah, there can be rumors, salt, metagame, and harassment. But there are also block buttons, screen shots, and forum reports. The behaviors listed are absolutely player problems and not solely on that of an IM/VC app, and it'd be unfair to say that these happen because of IM/VC. It happens because that's what the player wants to do it.

Despite being pro-chat, I will say the one thing I dislike about group chats is the general clique-iness that can result from it. Being really good friend does result in ICly hanging around friends' characters, and it does stagnate RP if no real effort is made to branch out.

[Ambigue]

Discord's fundamental 'problem' is that it can magnify the virtues and vices of the groups that employ it. It is not different from any other group communication tool in that regard.

if the group is friendly and inclusive, then using Discord will make it easier for them to be friendly and inclusive to more people.

If the group is a bunch of contemptuous, sullen a-holes who primarily like to have fun at the expense of others, then Discord'll make it easier for them to do that, too.

Also, simply by virtue of existing, it will segment your playerbase into those that use it and those that don't and their experiences on the server will be influenced by that. Turning it off or ignoring it while IG is simply a way to try and alleviate some of the more irksome aspects of that segmentation and helps put everyone on the same level.

[-XXX-]

I somewhat don't see the point of this thread. You can't prevent players from using Discord.
Also, Discord is just a tool, the real issue here is OOC communication between Arelith players - it can lead to positive or negative experiences.

[Tyrantos]

Its a nightmare to use factions to cordinate players.