A discussion about Discords (and stuff)

[Dr_Hazard89]

I would really suggest against setting up a discord for a faction

Yes I know they exist

Yes they have value but I think the potential negatives far out weigh the postives when there are so many ways IC to communicate and forums for OOC communication.

Is this saying you are bad for having one? No but in my opinion a discord could have some negative effects

1. Only logging in with your character when known friends are online which takes away from meeting new people and the great random encounters that happen from just being online.

2. A lot of actions become scripted and IC actions have a greater chance of being influenced by OOC actions. This isn't all bad of course but I find that it is hard to focus ICly when there is a lot of OOc chatter.

I dont want this thread to turn into a discussion about Discords if you want to PM me about it or want to start a new thread go for it! But since it was brought up in the thread here I just wantrd to advise against it.

I would really suggest working out communications through and IC manner. It'll help grow your character, fuel non scripted RP and give other people outside discord a chance to meet you.

A happy medium if you want to use Discord might be to turn it off or mute it while in game.

I really like this advice and feel like it's important, maybe even worth sticking somewhere. I try to avoid OOC communication for these (and other) reasons. As the game has gone from new to old and the servers and playerbases have changed, attitudes have changed too. Things that were common have become rare and things that were rare have become almost expected. OOC communication is one of those things.

If I decline your invitation (and I get many) to join a discord/skype/whatever it's not because I don't like you, it's because I come here to RP and I only come here to RP. I don't want to infect fantasy with OOC shenanigans, emotions, politics, cliques (and memes). I want to focus all my time and energy into being in character, and when things are set up out of character (like who will play with who when) it takes away from the experience I am accustomed to on a NWN roleplaying server, of simply being my character and seeing where things go.

I don't mean to say that any and all OOC communication is bad. Of course there should be some, but throughout the life of this game I've never felt that forums were inadequate. On Arelith we also have lovely features like factions systems for OOC messages, and message boards/notes for IC communication. In the past the only OOC communication that seemed necessary was to let someone in charge know when the server had died, griefers/hackers were online, or something like that.

There's a lot of storytelling and immersion you might be missing out on if you rely too heavily on OOC systems instead of just letting the roleplay session take course. There is also the intentional and unintentional metagaming that happens. Humans are imperfect and biased and these things just happen. From an 'outsider' perspective, it's pretty obvious when a group has their own thing going on out of character. You can see it in their behaviour, organisation and progress.

I feel as if OOC communication has become so normalised that by opting out, I am often left in the dark in factions and forever an outsider. I would really love it if people tried and do as much of this stuff through their characters as possible. It can enhance the quality of enjoyment and RP for the whole server, and yourself.

Just to reiterate I'm not saying any and all OOC communication is bad. I am just saying that I feel it's become a bit too relied on.

I'm interested in reading others thoughts and opinions on this. I'm pretty shy about posting. I spend most of my time on the forum spending hours to craft a response only to delete it moments after posting it. I am not a well-adjusted member of society. So uh .. If you're as neurotic as I am and don't want to post publicly, feel free to send me a PM, I'd gladly read it just to know your thoughts.

Please try not to see this as a personal attack on anyone or any group, it isn't.

[Irongron]

I have to say I very much agree with Always This Late and the above poster. I think the whole move towards team speak for online gaming has had a negative impact on Arelith.

Of course it is up to people to do what they want, but I would personally prefer it if people didn't send tells inviting people to private faction discord groups, on more than one occasion I've had new players inform me they have been put off playing by receiving them.

[This is not for you.]

I genuinely feel my life has been enriched because of the people I've met on an out of character level who have helped me grow and mature as a person. I used to be very shy and nervous around people, but because of the people I've met and talked to I've greatly improved. I think it's hella rad the server is a place where people have met and made strong friendships that I think I can safely say have really had a lasting effect on people.

So I think OOC will always happen, this is a game that, even when I invite new players to the server I recommend they bring a friend to help them level up. It is not easy to hoof in alone without any buddies to hang out with, and speaking from experience it can be quite hard to meet with new people. And I think that's okay as long as it isn't being used as a crutch, or in ways outlined by DM ATL. I watched two new players the other day in the 3.0 chat talk about meeting up In Game to explore the server together and honestly that's what I think it's there for. Helping people connect so they can play together.

It's important to remember I think that this is still a game that friends play. And that's definitely okay and should be celebrated as long as players take the appropriate steps to make sure they aren't breaking rules or being not-excellent to others.

[Marsi]

Speaking as someone who used to be very much opposed to OOC organisation and communication, I've come to think it's a total non-issue. Tbqh I struggle to notice any difference in RP quality between discord users and non-discord users (despite that being my driving argument when I was in OP's camp). In fact, I know more 30 and 40 RPRs who have no qualms organising on discord than those who do, but I know a whole bunch of "purist" Luddite players who mistake pedantry for quality. I find "gotcha" RP more tiring and disruptive than memes and OOC friendliness. Being grilled for trying to expedite a meet up over tells is lame, and I make sure to mentally earmark players like that and steer clear.

There's hasn't been some sort of paradigm shift either. Those savvy with OOC chat programs were absolutely using them in these supposed salad days when everything was organic and nothing pre-ordained. Some people take it too far, yes, but it's not like these types were high quality roleplayers until they were "corrupted" by Discord -- they were always gutter tier.

[DM Always This Late]

I don't think discord use has anything to do with the quality of a role player and I don't think any less of anyone who does use it.

I'd still advocate for muting or shutting off discord during game play if a player chooses to use it. For example, say you are bored. You could ping your pal on discord, or go interact with that character you've never met standing a few paces away. I find the second option would be more benfitcial for both players. (Not that you can't also ping your pal! But i would favor IC communication and involving ones self with new people over OOC communication))

But again this isn't an attack on anyone who uses discord. Simply an alternate view on how to use or in this case not use a tool that might provide a richer rp experince for those involved

[Durvayas]

The prevalence of discord is a double edged sword.

On the one hand, I've found discords immeasurably useful for discussing builds and setting up times for people to get online in a group. It is much more useful in that regard than the -factions system for sending mass OOC messages like "group outing thursday @ 10PM". From a social aspect, its not bad either. RL is a thing, and sometimes we can benefit from having people to talk to, and want to talk to people about stuff that isn't Arelith related, this builds up the comradery of those in the group.

On the other hand, I've found that they seriously cause issues in the OOC and IC sphere. Unless tightly moderated they become toxic echo-chambers, and can be the foundation block upon which cliques are formed. Its painfully obvious when a group is using voice chat in game. If there is a group and they say nothing, but suddenly move in perfect concert simultaneously, it gets pretty brazen. It can be exclusionary for those who don't partake, and overuse for IC information can cause a dearth of information for spies to steal if they manage to penetrate the base, which is lame. If a large active faction of ten or more doesn't have a message board that is active and bustling, that is a clear sign that organization and information is being moved around on a discord or a skype, rather than in game.

Being frank, I think I enjoyed Arelith more before skype and discord were a thing, because the degree with which the toxicity of the playerbase has grown can be directly tied to how easily rumors about a player can be thrown around, and how much easier it is now to share exploits and organize campaigns to grief. Its become a lot like a high school bathroom with scribbled conversations on the wall of the toilet stall with messages talking about who in class 2A is a slut.

[Lorkas]

The only thing that really gets me is when people are obviously coordinating their activities during battle or adventures through OOC means. Using it to remind people of events, share lore, or just chat doesn't bother me at all.

[Grunf]

I wished there was no ooc, there wasnt a playerlist even in the game and server is more "hardcore", however even if it was such ooc-msg is something that is hard to avoid. In 8 years of arelith i find current setup less ooc than those before(Kudos to last years staff and players who matured including myself, i think ), but ooc msngers cant be avoided, and so far Discord is far more "polite" than forum, reddit(was it?) and similar. Also factions in groups never know is in their faction DM, or did some player report them.

I also found that some players blame discord when politics come in question to blame if they lose it, in most cases i find this false. Constant power change in last months reveals no one holds strong power on arelith even if its on discord as people change.

I would suggest approach like Nederland did with the weed (not 100% exactly:)), make discord official thing but put out admins, factions must be reported to staff they exist, educate community to control itself and promote RP with it and no IC talk in it. Open it that people can report discord abuse and at least damage will be lowered because lets be honest, this is impossible to stop.

Voice thing is lame, I agree, texts are more transparent.

Also like in real life there are days to promote some kind of charity and such, i wish there were "no tells week" where IC is promoted more than OOC, for example would shut-down "tells" except in DM channel for a week each several months and i am sure there will be nice feedback how "cool" it is without it. This would be nice poll question as i am certain most players would agree to it.

[Wordless Truth]

I come here to RP and I only come here to RP.

100% same for me.

1. Only logging in with your character when known friends are online which takes away from meeting new people and the great random encounters that happen from just being online.

Personally I agree this is a problem. Not only because of the randomly meeting new people part, but because you literally can't get in touch with some people ingame if it's e.g. a faction or a group that only logs at the same time together. For me, that actually means that sometimes I have to bother other players through tells to have them contact certain players via discord, just so someone logs in and I can advance a plotline.

Stories aren't driven naturally, ICly, dynamically, in those cases.

And I think the spontaneous 'it's happening now and I didn't see it coming' type of RP is the most enjoyable.

2. A lot of actions become scripted and IC actions have a greater chance of being influenced by OOC actions. This isn't all bad of course but I find that it is hard to focus ICly when there is a lot of OOc chatter

.

Cliques and Arelith don't seem to come separately. There's always been backbiting and toxicity and clique behaviour on Arelith, in the past it just happened through e.g. MSN, or Skype and the evergreen, tells.

(...) this builds up the comradery of those in the group.

I know you differentiated and gave the negative side of this as well, but since the above thing is still on the plus side of your argumentation I want to stress that I personally feel that 'building up comradery in the group' can be kind of a bad thing.

OOCly, we're all in the same team. From an OOC perspective, we all want (more or less) the same thing.

There is no UD vs. Surface, drow vs. elves, Abyssal vs. Infernal.

We don't need more comradery among drow. Or Banites. Or Ex-LKers/RO. Or any other faction.

We need comradery (sportsmanship) across the whole playerbase.

[Dovesong]

Unless the DM team wants to spend every single minute of every single day checking tells and examining every scrap of RP that happens to ensure it's not oocly influenced (which requires a judgement call most honestly can't make, not just DMs but people in general), we need to accept this is the way things are going. People like interacting. Some will be jerks and use it to their advantage but the vast majority do not.

Friends are made. New opinions are learned and old vices are forgotten. (Unless, like some, you can't let go of problem behaviours, but that's a thing)

Every person here, at one time or another, has used ooc to advance their chars' stories. Usually before we learn better. And most of us did it even before Skype existed, let alone discord.

I have personally seen more players leave over tells than discord. I've seen our players lasso some back in BECAUSE of discord. And I'm speaking within the last six months. Discord, skype, they aren't the issue. Players are. Always. Good players don't become bad players because Discord exists.

[Seekeepeek]

communication in war is everything.
i had some PvP with people who was using discord, they sure attacked in union as if on a count down.
i travelled with said group for a while before hand, so was pretty obvious they was on discord or an other type of ooc communication. was kinda fun to watch none the less.

don't really think there is anything wrong with discord, just slightly tired of the endless OOC invitations to it, some been cause they wanna have cybersex. why i kinda plan to not get on it...

but my voice means nothing really, since i don't use it. i don't have any experience with. there is properly a feature to exclude the people you don't wanna get contacted by.. i imagine?

[flower]

Being frank, I think I enjoyed Arelith more before skype and discord were a thing, because the degree with which the toxicity of the playerbase has grown can be directly tied to how easily rumors about a player can be thrown around, and how much easier it is now to share exploits and organize campaigns to grief. Its become a lot like a high school bathroom with scribbled conversations on the wall of the toilet stall with messages talking about who in class 2A is a slut.

Everyone has free option to not use skype, discort, or even OOC tells IG. That choice costs you no money, no xps, no gold IG. All you need to do, is to make it.

[gilescorey]

I'll use discord, and stuff, and I won't feel ashamed for it. I've made friends -- so far as you can be friends with someone over the internet, I suppose -- on this game, and you know, maybe I want to talk to them over a medium that's more than just green letters with [Tell] in front of it. Maybe I want to play other games than Arelith with them; I really don't see why people wanting to be friends is a bad, awful thing that should be avoided.

Maybe in some, vaguely tangible way that "harms" the RP environment, but I'd have a harmed RP environment before I'd have a stiff environment where the best thing you're getting out of people is "cold observance of politeness."

That's just me, though. The great thing about this situation is that you can kind of do whatever you want, right?

[yellowcateyes]

OOC communication and coordination has been a thing since Tells and Gamespy chat. Before Discord it was Skype, and before that it was random mIRC chatrooms.

The only change Discord and similar programs have brought to the table is user-friendliness and access, with quality voice communication being available while running high-end games.

Players are free to find their enjoyment in their own way. Some players see gaming as a social activity as much as anything else, and like to shoot the breeze with friends while they're playing. Others want to have as few distractions as possible so they can focus on RP. Many shift between those modes depending on their mood, or the company available.

NWN is a silly game about make-believe elves and wizards. No one experience is "richer" than the other. Do what you like doing.

[Iceborn]

OOC communication is important, but I find thing like voice chatting whilst playing tend to have a negative impact in the game.

OOC groups are also more likely to form cancerigenous cliques and echo chambers to fester bad blood or multiply the salt exponentially. It takes a good will save to stop the echoing from cycling and retain a healthy atmosphere.

I personally encourage to use OOC groups to stay well-communicated with other players, but to be wary to not fall prey to any lynch mob mentality.

[Astral]

It's a very complicated subject. For me personally, I'm not a great fan of discord channels AT ALL (I usually leave them or get banned due to unpopular opinions). But that's all they are... Discord channels. I live in Israel and most of the time I play there are less then 30 people on both servers combined so discord does help keeping in touch with your faction when you don't get to see them in game for a while. It also helps getting to know people out of the game as cj said and if someone uses it for meta-gaming, plot-planning and stuff like that, then it's safe to say that they are the problem and not Discord. Voice chat is a bit too much for my taste but I'm old and technologically-retarded so I don't really have an opinion over it.
Bottom line is: Don't blame discord - blame people who cant hold themselves away from acting IC on stuff they hear on discord.

[WanderingPoet]

Discord has its uses when you /are/ trying to organize something - say you need to meet up with a faction leader that is in a different timezone, much easier to organize with some sort of OOC method. The forums can be used of course, but Discord(and other IMs) has a nice rapid-fire back and forth that gets things figured out quickly. And as another said, it gives avenues to enjoy doing things with players outside of Arelith which is good for community building - nothing wrong with just enjoying each other as players.

I do find that using Voice Chat in combination with Arelith is detrimental though. I at least can't focus on talking and typing very well at the same time, so I imagine for many people voice chatting limits the RP capacity. People can voice chat their RP but that cuts out passerby's from being able to interact. I do however think it is actually /toxic/ for the use of these mediums to influence in game events, such as voice chatting during PvP, or to talk privately when your characters are unable to. Of course there is a line between laughing at something that happened in game (which is probably fine) versus using it to figure out how to manipulate other characters or win a PvP fight (which is probably not so fine).

What I do know is it will not generate good feelings/good will for players if they find out that they were 'bested' because the other team had access to alternative forms of communication that were not built into the game.

[Aodh Lazuli]

OOC communication is absolutely necessary for a community to exist. Without it, we are all phenomenally isolated. We choose to engage in collaborative storytelling, and as a result it is probably worth getting to know our collaborators.

Usually, these threads pop up from those individuals who prefer (for whatever reason) to remain isolated from the community and just do their thing in game. That's fine... It might be that they find making ooc connections difficult, or they believe doing so compromises their creativity. It might be that they're supremely arrogant and believe that they're "above all that", or whatever.

I wouldn't dream of casting a good-or-bad judgement of those people or their ability to roleplay a character based on their level of engagement with the community out of character... But in this thread, I am seeing arguments suggesting that communicating ooc or forming and engaging with a community is in some way bad for roleplay. That's something I find rather interesting, and I wonder what the motivation or or context in making those statements might be.


(As a side note, most discord servers are used as purely text based methods of communication. Voice is very very rarely used by anyone in my experience, because most people accept that it is distracting.)

[Ridiculously Circuitous Plans]

I don't particularly find OOC communication to be an issue until it starts to negatively impact those who are trying to RP with you. The main way I see this happen is a growing level of what I think of as hyper-distracted RP - i.e. when you're having an IG conversation with someone, and it is clear that they are not giving you even close to the full measure of their attention. I was RPing recently with a group whom I know enjoys keeping a voice chat open during gameplay, and it honestly felt like the actual game was taking a backseat to that chat. It would take literally 3-4 minutes for people to reply with six word sentences while in the meantime I sat and stared at my screen.

The other thing I've noted has already been mentioned, which is the feeling of being an outsider or pariah if you do not join these discord groups. Once I was even straight up told OOC that I'd likely never go anywhere with a particular faction unless I joined their discord... I found that very disheartening, as I am someone who simply can't RP well with a separate conversation going. One track mind and all that.

Basically, so far as I am concerned, by all means communicate OOC, form a community of online friends, but please don't let it affect the level of attention you are giving to others in the game, and please don't discriminate because others don't desire the same OOC experience as you .

[Seven Sons of Sin]

OOC communication, external of the game world, presents the slippery slope of blurring IC and OOC.

I personally subscribe to the idea that being ignorant on Arelith is generally better practice than being informed. There's just way too much personal information, drama, gossip, bad blood (cue tswift), and angst out there. It's better to be ignorant in your bubble and have fun.

I also believe that OOC bias (positive or negative) detracts from the roleplaying experience. I wish everyone could be incognito all the time.

That said, making friends is vital and fundamental to paving your way on Arelith. Much of my success here has been because of long-running and positive relationships with other players.

Basically, I advocate for open and inclusive mini-cliques, and against entering the vast wasteland of Arelith OOC.

[Wytchee]

I have been in too many discord groups that outright plotted IC coups or events. One even went overboard with graphs and charts detailing who would be where and when, and they boasted about how "this is how it's done. This is how you win." They were constantly in voice chat, even while heavy RP was going on, or they'd be streaming music over VC (their taste in music was bad and they should forever feel bad). It got to the point that I had to roll my character just to avoid RPing with them again, and I have to say that it being my first impression of Underdark roleplay, I'm not keen on repeating it.

[Cortex]

Personally, the discords I stay in usually are with OOC friends that I play with on occasion, but don't build factions around the entire discord chats. It's nice for meeting new friends too when they invite someone over.

[Torrtorr]

I don't think there's anything wrong with a general Discord channel where people can ask for advice or find other players to play with.

It gets weird when people start coordinating what they're doing in game (live) over external communication sources though, such as PVP or even general plotting against other players.

It's an interactive game and you're limiting your own interactions with other players just to get an edge.

[Aodh Lazuli]

but don't build factions around the entire discord chats.

This usually happens in reverse. The faction is made in game, the discord appears later when it turns out that those people enjoy spending time with one another.

[Xerah]

I always think of this game as a collaborative storytelling game, in which, I think OOC discussion is necessary. That isn't required for the general 'day to day' RP, but some the more in-depth character plots/developments could really use some discussions about general plans and directions.

Oh the whole though, I quite agree with the points that both This is not for you and Aodh Lazuli have made and don't need to expand on that.

Discord groups can be bad, but so can anything. It's up to each person in the community to not engage in undesired behavior or rule breaking, but I wouldn't state all OOC is bad simply because some people choose to abuse it.