Gaming: Casuals vs Core, and Arelith

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Baron Saturday
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Re: Gaming: Casuals vs Core, and Arelith

Post by Baron Saturday » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:07 am

BegoneThoth wrote:Balance around the top 5% skill bracket. Anything less and you end up with a shallow pool that's boring to swim in.

If you wanna see casual D&D vidya go look at new neverwinter, where you can play a 'control wizard' or 'great weapon fighter.'

Skill gaps are important. Here's a good (and actually entertaining) breakdown that isn't a cartoon. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSgA_nK_w3A
That would make sense if Arelith were a competitive, skill-based game, but it isn't. Don't get me wrong, PvP and difficult content add spice to the game and shouldn't be ignored, but ultimately Arelith is a game about collaborative storytelling through roleplay. In that context, the "top 5% skill bracket" is a meaningless term.

Personally, I have been really happy with the development of the server in the time since I started playing. There's been a fair balance between mechanical changes and changes that enhance the world and overarching story.
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Re: Gaming: Casuals vs Core, and Arelith

Post by yellowcateyes » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:14 pm

Giftstoff wrote:With so many recent changes implemented to make things faster, easier, harder to mess up, less patient. I feel we're slowly losing these things, and they should be kept in mind anytime a; "Make this change because I don't have time"
Giftstoff wrote:The video boils down to devs catering to the casual crowd and destroying their game due to lack of depth. Very reminiscent.
I never thought I'd see the "stop catering to the filthy casuals or you'll destroy your game, devs!" argument bandied about in Arelith.

Anyhow, it's hard to tell what exactly you're trying to critique unless you give specifics.
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gilescorey
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Re: Gaming: Casuals vs Core, and Arelith

Post by gilescorey » Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:14 pm

If anything Arelith caters too much to "hardcore" players. It takes a stupid amount of time to be high level, it takes a stupid amount of time to be relevant RP-wise; Arelith is an utterly massive investment as far as time goes, if you want to experience the full breadth of the game. If I didn't have as much free time as I do now, I really wouldn't even bother.

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Re: Gaming: Casuals vs Core, and Arelith

Post by Mr_Rieper » Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:46 pm

It's really not that bad, when you compare it to other MMO games.

I brought one or two people here from Wrath of the Lich King WoW. It takes 2/3 of the time to get to max level, maybe even half. And that was before the update to adventuring xp.

And in WoW, you need to do quests and kill stuff. Here you're still leveling (albeit slowly) when you're standing around and talking.

It's really not that bad. It's only terrible because of how ridiculously fragile you are at level 3, compared to level 15 or level 30.
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Re: Gaming: Casuals vs Core, and Arelith

Post by BegoneThoth » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:57 pm

Baron Saturday wrote:
BegoneThoth wrote:Balance around the top 5% skill bracket. Anything less and you end up with a shallow pool that's boring to swim in.

If you wanna see casual D&D vidya go look at new neverwinter, where you can play a 'control wizard' or 'great weapon fighter.'

Skill gaps are important. Here's a good (and actually entertaining) breakdown that isn't a cartoon. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSgA_nK_w3A
That would make sense if Arelith were a competitive, skill-based game, but it isn't. Don't get me wrong, PvP and difficult content add spice to the game and shouldn't be ignored, but ultimately Arelith is a game about collaborative storytelling through roleplay. In that context, the "top 5% skill bracket" is a meaningless term.

Personally, I have been really happy with the development of the server in the time since I started playing. There's been a fair balance between mechanical changes and changes that enhance the world and overarching story.
It is a skill-based game, reaction time matters, buffs matter, knowing the breach-order matters, knowing mechanics matter, and builds are hyper-important; the difference between a good build and a "making it up as you go" build is so extreme that a bad build essentially cannot win versus a powerbuild. Luckily for us we're getting complex new classes (spellsword) as opposed to low skill-cap classes added. They aren't adding classes that just give everyone 30 to disc/tumble/umd and soft-cap con/saves so people can RP without knowing mechanics. I mean, seriously, take someone who is new to nwn, and just see how their character looks at level 15 after figuring it out themselves. There is skill here outside of proper positioning/bottle-necking/buff management/reaction time and just flat out out-smarting your human opponents.

And it is competitive, you can win a lot and you can lose a lot in a single battle, which is why some people push so hard to become good at this game. You can 'win' in NWN just as easily as you can 'lose.' I really think people that say you can't 'win' in this game just never have.
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Cortex
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Re: Gaming: Casuals vs Core, and Arelith

Post by Cortex » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:06 pm

collaborative storytelling is a competition
:)

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Gaming: Casuals vs Core, and Arelith

Post by BegoneThoth » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:18 pm

It just runs parallel to mechanics. Both are important but you can't number-crunch or line-of-sight or corner-sneak to be good at collaborative storytelling.

Nobody goes to builds and asks for an RP build. NWN is almost two games at once and you can be good at both.
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Re: Gaming: Casuals vs Core, and Arelith

Post by Giftstoff » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:26 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:
Baron Saturday wrote:
BegoneThoth wrote:Balance around the top 5% skill bracket. Anything less and you end up with a shallow pool that's boring to swim in.

If you wanna see casual D&D vidya go look at new neverwinter, where you can play a 'control wizard' or 'great weapon fighter.'

Skill gaps are important. Here's a good (and actually entertaining) breakdown that isn't a cartoon. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSgA_nK_w3A
That would make sense if Arelith were a competitive, skill-based game, but it isn't. Don't get me wrong, PvP and difficult content add spice to the game and shouldn't be ignored, but ultimately Arelith is a game about collaborative storytelling through roleplay. In that context, the "top 5% skill bracket" is a meaningless term.

Personally, I have been really happy with the development of the server in the time since I started playing. There's been a fair balance between mechanical changes and changes that enhance the world and overarching story.
It is a skill-based game, reaction time matters, buffs matter, knowing the breach-order matters, knowing mechanics matter, and builds are hyper-important; the difference between a good build and a "making it up as you go" build is so extreme that a bad build essentially cannot win versus a powerbuild. Luckily for us we're getting complex new classes (spellsword) as opposed to low skill-cap classes added. They aren't adding classes that just give everyone 30 to disc/tumble/umd and soft-cap con/saves so people can RP without knowing mechanics. I mean, seriously, take someone who is new to nwn, and just see how their character looks at level 15 after figuring it out themselves. There is skill here outside of proper positioning/bottle-necking/buff management/reaction time and just flat out out-smarting your human opponents.

And it is competitive, you can win a lot and you can lose a lot in a single battle, which is why some people push so hard to become good at this game. You can 'win' in NWN just as easily as you can 'lose.' I really think people that say you can't 'win' in this game just never have.
This exact example of; "Must win" mentality has been ~proven~ time and time again to be extremely bad for both rp and the server as a whole. You should be challenging yourself on how you can improve the rp experience of others and yourself, not on how you can beat them to death in pvp with mechanics. That attitude is wrong. Plain wrong.

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BegoneThoth
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Re: Gaming: Casuals vs Core, and Arelith

Post by BegoneThoth » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:38 pm

It's less about beating people to death in pvp and more about not being beaten to death in pvp.

In my first day on this server I think I got murdered 3 times by other PC's, followed by several more deaths over my first week while out in the Bramble or mines. Why not build so you have a chance and don't end up one of the huddled masses when a 'pvper' shows up?

Hell if you win an election and an assassin kills you via pvp mechanics you just lose your settlement. It's an ig system there to be used; it's clearly encouraged in game and ic.
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Re: Gaming: Casuals vs Core, and Arelith

Post by Giftstoff » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:41 pm

BegoneThoth wrote:It's less about beating people to death in pvp and more about not being beaten to death in pvp.

In my first day on this server I think I got murdered 3 times by other PC's, followed by several more deaths over my first week while out in the Bramble or mines. Why not build so you have a chance and don't end up one of the huddled masses when a 'pvper' shows up?

Hell if you win an election and an assassin kills you via pvp mechanics you just lose your settlement. It's an ig system there to be used; it's clearly encouraged in game and ic.
If you are getting into pvp that often, you or your characters are doing something very wrong, or are directly pushing for pvp.

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Re: Gaming: Casuals vs Core, and Arelith

Post by cptcuddlepants » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:43 pm

Giftstoff wrote:This exact example of; "Must win" mentality has been ~proven~ time and time again to be extremely bad for both rp and the server as a whole. You should be challenging yourself on how you can improve the rp experience of others and yourself, not on how you can beat them to death in pvp with mechanics. That attitude is wrong. Plain wrong.
And yet it's everywhere.

It's one of the "why am I still playing this" aspects of the game. There's a worryingly high number of players who think that PVP is a greeting, interactive roleplay, and a farewell all rolled into one, and that mechanically killing someone is the pinnacle of enjoyable writing. Because why bother roleplaying on a roleplaying server, when you can just "win roleplay" through PVP?
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Re: Gaming: Casuals vs Core, and Arelith

Post by BegoneThoth » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:46 pm

Giftstoff wrote:
BegoneThoth wrote:It's less about beating people to death in pvp and more about not being beaten to death in pvp.

In my first day on this server I think I got murdered 3 times by other PC's, followed by several more deaths over my first week while out in the Bramble or mines. Why not build so you have a chance and don't end up one of the huddled masses when a 'pvper' shows up?

Hell if you win an election and an assassin kills you via pvp mechanics you just lose your settlement. It's an ig system there to be used; it's clearly encouraged in game and ic.
If you are getting into pvp that often, you or your characters are doing something very wrong, or are directly pushing for pvp.
No, dm's got involved on their own more often then not after the fact. Was always just some random murdering.
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Re: Gaming: Casuals vs Core, and Arelith

Post by hoshi » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:00 pm

BegoneThoth wrote: And it is competitive, you can win a lot and you can lose a lot in a single battle, which is why some people push so hard to become good at this game. You can 'win' in NWN just as easily as you can 'lose.' I really think people that say you can't 'win' in this game just never have.
You win nothing but self satisfaction and maybe a bit of gold. The loser largely determines what the RP significance is of the PvP. Even the assassination system is largely irrelevant in actual practice.

I used to play on a RP server that rewarded the winner. Any time you died you lost all your worn gear, any "stolen" gear, your gold, and at least a level. Any gear looted from a corpse was then marked as stolen. They had a subdue system as well. PvP wasn't frequent but was meaningful, and generally PCs learned when to back down or were reduced to non-existence. The better PvPers tended to have more narrative control as a by-product. I really enjoyed playing on there. There were even servers with more severe systems than that.

Being all hyper competitive here just seems silly to me. Without any real mechanical benefits/consequences or both sides of a conflict choosing to honor it PvP has as much importance as spinning your character around in a circle and saying you "won" because you rotated more times than anyone else has ever.

I'm not saying Arelith should turn into the server of old either, after all it and other servers like it didn't stand the test of time like Arelith has.

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Re: Gaming: Casuals vs Core, and Arelith

Post by BegoneThoth » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:34 pm

I wasn't implying mechanical rewards for pvp, I think that's a really bad system because it encourages fights for that reason.

What I mean is, back to the topic at hand here, this server is built to cater to the 'core' or top percent, it has systems in place to reward those players specifically, offers boons to those with lots of hours logged in, and mechanics in place to boost those that know how to use them. I think it's great.

It also goes out of its way to punish casual play and casual knowledge, while a lot of that is simply because building in NWN is a counter-intuitive pain in the Snuggybear, Arelith also does its own share by not always explaining whats happening in game, requiring player testing or word-of-mouth in lieu of proper explanations.

It may be more 'casual' then ever now, which is good, because it managed to do that without destroying the depth demanded by others, ignoring the one-day horse-pocolypse thing.

But it is competitive, in its own way, and I like it a lot. As long as there are systems that support elections, properties to own, assets to acquire, resources to hunt, and PC's can wield actual power, you can win and you can lose.
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Re: Gaming: Casuals vs Core, and Arelith

Post by Manticore » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:10 pm

gilescorey wrote:If anything Arelith caters too much to "hardcore" players. It takes a stupid amount of time to be high level, it takes a stupid amount of time to be relevant RP-wise; Arelith is an utterly massive investment as far as time goes, if you want to experience the full breadth of the game. If I didn't have as much free time as I do now, I really wouldn't even bother.
Just jumping in to add agreement here. I dropped off in the past year due to a decline in gaming time, and was never a top-tier activity type of person in the first place due to having a 9 to 5 job and other commitments. But from my experience there is very little enjoyment to be had from Arelith if you're in a position to only be able to log on for an hour or two here and there. Even just sitting down for an IC chat with someone typically runs an hour or two, and that's without trying to sync schedules, send speedies back and forth, waiting for the player to arrive, etc. Nothing is quick and easy in this game.

And yes, like it or not, you do need to spend some time grinding to be relevant and enjoy everything the game offers. As in, hours of mind-numbing boredom while you circle the same places over and over. Tons of fun. And you also need to dedicate time to RP with a wide variety of people to get involved in the stuff that really makes this place special - the deep plots, conspiracy, and faction-based conflicts. Even when I could dedicate 3-4 hours a day it didn't really seem sufficient. If you can only average an hour or less per day? Don't bother. This game isn't for you, it's for the people who invest thousands of hours into it.

And you know what? That's okay. Heavy RP is not and has never been a "casual" thing. There's plenty of games where you can jump in for an hour here and there and get your dopamine fix. But very few offer the depth and rich rewards that Arelith offers its "hardcore" player base.

However I do think we can take some steps to find more of a happy medium. To do that, there needs to be some further trimming of the dead weight time wasting to try to find a balance where people who do have jobs and families and other things in their life - people who fall into the middle tier of activity - can achieve more in their limited playtime. Introduce more alternative ways of leveling. Find more ways to cut time spent traveling around the map. Maybe streamline IC communication a bit. Because people should be spending more of their time doing the fun stuff and less of it doing the drudgery. I think the devs have been slowly accomplishing some of these things lately and I hope they continue.

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Re: Gaming: Casuals vs Core, and Arelith

Post by BegoneThoth » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:42 pm

A bigger rpr bonus and more adventure xp per tick would help, and naturally encourage players to ic plan runs as opposed to constantly grind, as their adventure xp is consumed more rapidly.
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Re: Gaming: Casuals vs Core, and Arelith

Post by Black Wendigo » Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:01 pm

WHat I got out of the video is that Devs are beliving the myth that there is a rift between casual and core players (i don't think that is real). And that they are changing their games based on the casual gaming misconceptions. (Personally I don't think that anyone has to play "catch up" with their friends or other online players. If you do, then you either have the wrong friends or are playing a play to win game that you are better off without.)
Last edited by Black Wendigo on Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Gaming: Casuals vs Core, and Arelith

Post by Opustus » Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:49 pm

Manticore wrote:
gilescorey wrote:If anything Arelith caters too much to "hardcore" players. It takes a stupid amount of time to be high level, it takes a stupid amount of time to be relevant RP-wise; Arelith is an utterly massive investment as far as time goes, if you want to experience the full breadth of the game. If I didn't have as much free time as I do now, I really wouldn't even bother.
Just jumping in to add agreement here. I dropped off in the past year due to a decline in gaming time, and was never a top-tier activity type of person in the first place due to having a 9 to 5 job and other commitments. But from my experience there is very little enjoyment to be had from Arelith if you're in a position to only be able to log on for an hour or two here and there. Even just sitting down for an IC chat with someone typically runs an hour or two, and that's without trying to sync schedules, send speedies back and forth, waiting for the player to arrive, etc. Nothing is quick and easy in this game.

And yes, like it or not, you do need to spend some time grinding to be relevant and enjoy everything the game offers. As in, hours of mind-numbing boredom while you circle the same places over and over. Tons of fun. And you also need to dedicate time to RP with a wide variety of people to get involved in the stuff that really makes this place special - the deep plots, conspiracy, and faction-based conflicts. Even when I could dedicate 3-4 hours a day it didn't really seem sufficient. If you can only average an hour or less per day? Don't bother. This game isn't for you, it's for the people who invest thousands of hours into it.

And you know what? That's okay. Heavy RP is not and has never been a "casual" thing. There's plenty of games where you can jump in for an hour here and there and get your dopamine fix. But very few offer the depth and rich rewards that Arelith offers its "hardcore" player base.
...
I think you two are guilty of representing a somewhat parochial and one-sided view of what Arelith can offer. I've played NWN on RP servers ever since I could write a few simple sentences of English---for so long I didn't have even a clue how English was spoken. Coming to Arelith after my years on Amia revealed a side of the game I didn't know I had been missing: everything was shiny, novel, and waiting to be explored. I can't wait to be done with my silly work stuff to dive back into the immersive world of Arelith just to wander the areas aimlessly and to run into new people. This sense of wonder is something I as a veteran player on the other server couldn't achieve: every corner and nook, every shop, every faction and plot was pretty much known to me, and I could navigate the maps without any effort to find what I was looking for on my new characters. It was inordinately difficult to play a new character as a new character, because I could suspend disbelief only so much when practically everything the world had to offer had been learnt by rote.

The social aspect of Arelith with its intrigue, romance, and drama is only one facet; another wonderful facet is to be completely out of it.
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Re: Gaming: Casuals vs Core, and Arelith

Post by Cortex » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:07 pm

@Opustus

In regards to exploration, it's how I feel in regard to Arelith. I know pretty much everything after playing Arelith over years and years. So I don't think that is too much of a valid point, at least toward area/mechanical exploration.
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Re: Gaming: Casuals vs Core, and Arelith

Post by gilescorey » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:18 pm

Opustus wrote: I think you two are guilty of representing a somewhat parochial and one-sided view of what Arelith can offer [...] The social aspect of Arelith with its intrigue, romance, and drama is only one facet; another wonderful facet is to be completely out of it.
So your point is "I'm new so exploring is fun and you're wrong"? I don't get it. Eventually you won't be new anymore -- you even said that Amia was boring because you'd seen everything. Then what happens when you see everything on Arelith too?

Nothing in your post contradicts what I've said, or even I'll go so far as what Manticore said. I really don't get it, maybe I'm just dumb or something.

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Re: Gaming: Casuals vs Core, and Arelith

Post by Opustus » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:39 pm

It was just a "matter of perspective" comment, not really trying to argue any point. I felt the n00b/casual view was underrepresented and maybe underappreciated; I am feeling the full breadth of the game in a different way than you because of your massive time investment and respectively because of my minimal time investment. No contradiction indeed. When I've seen everything, I probably give up my badge and retire.

Cortex, this is exactly my point. Area and mechanical exploration gets boring when everything has been learned, but for me (in this discussion clearly a "casual") it is a huge deal.
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Re: Gaming: Casuals vs Core, and Arelith

Post by gilescorey » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:42 pm

I guess if your enjoyment comes from that. I just meant more in playing the game in the "typical" fashion, I suppose -- climbing through levels, making a mark on the server narrative, etc.

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Re: Gaming: Casuals vs Core, and Arelith

Post by The GrumpyCat » Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:58 pm

gilescorey wrote:If anything Arelith caters too much to "hardcore" players. It takes a stupid amount of time to be high level, it takes a stupid amount of time to be relevant RP-wise; Arelith is an utterly massive investment as far as time goes, if you want to experience the full breadth of the game. If I didn't have as much free time as I do now, I really wouldn't even bother.
Leveling you may have a point on (though experienced/skilled enough players can level extremely fast) but 'Relevent RP wise' you're just incorrect.

A lot of the more relevent characters have beecome VERY prominant within a month of starting. It's just about having the courage of your convictions and being brave and doing something, win or loose mechanicaly.
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Re: Gaming: Casuals vs Core, and Arelith

Post by Manticore » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:08 pm

Opustus wrote:It was just a "matter of perspective" comment, not really trying to argue any point. I felt the n00b/casual view was underrepresented and maybe underappreciated; I am feeling the full breadth of the game in a different way than you because of your massive time investment and respectively because of my minimal time investment. No contradiction indeed. When I've seen everything, I probably give up my badge and retire.

Cortex, this is exactly my point. Area and mechanical exploration gets boring when everything has been learned, but for me (in this discussion clearly a "casual") it is a huge deal.
My underlying point (it's also somewhat biased from my own experience with other games in that I haven't played on other NWN servers) is that the social, RP-centric, interactive, plot-building side of Arelith is what makes it relatively unique in the ocean of video game options that's out there today. Sure, there's an exploration side to the game, but hundreds of other games have that as well, and many do it better than Arelith in my personal opinion. There's the character progression side as well, the 'dopamine drip', and the 'gear treadmill'. But again, many, many other games do this - some better in some ways and some worse in some ways.

But name another game where you can encounter other intelligent players who add to the world's lore and play realistic and deep characters for you to interact with. A world with close oversight from DMs to ensure that your immersion into that world is not broken. A world with detailed mechanics created for the sole purpose of enhancing that roleplaying experience and which allow you to make a real, tangible impact on the world around you. Wow. That's something pretty unique in gaming today. And so that's what I think of as Arelith's key differentiator.

But on the flip side of that, if you (and thus your character) are not able to be present in that world as it grows in real time, you are missing out. Your overall experience is lessened relative to the amount of time you are absent from it. That's what I'm getting at.

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Re: Gaming: Casuals vs Core, and Arelith

Post by Black Wendigo » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:07 am

If you think levelling on Arelith is slow and long, then I don't think you have ever really played a true hardcore NWN server. I have ane believe me in comparision Arelith is a walk in the park. S0me things I have encounted on hard core servers in the past are:

-Requiring an application complete with charcater concept and background that must be approved by the Server Dms/admins

-Permadeath

-dropping ALL of your equipped gear on the ground upon death. Youwould then have to go back to where you died to get it back. And if it was in a difficult area you could lose all your gear because of that.

-RP natzis and rules lawyers. (I mean even beyond what you might see on Arelith, which is nothing.)

-No RPR or adventure RP.

-Excessively complicated or draconian crafting systems.

-Low or no magic items only (I consider Arelith a medium level magic item server.)

I didn't play on servers with such thigns and came to Arelith for a reason. Arelith is a happy medium between a draconian hardcore server and an action server. There is RP and some magical items to find and make. I'm happy with what is here.

I also have a question for those of you who are in such a hury to level up: Why? You are never going to be the most powerful char on the server because there will always be someone more powerful than you. THink of levelling as a challange instead of an inconvenience and perhapps you will be less frustrated with it to begin with. And level and power do not mean as much on Arelith as it seems. THis is from my own experience.

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