Good drow, bad drow.

[Bashagain]

I don’t mean to sound too ancient, but there was a time when it was generally accepted that drow were strictly considered evil, when the server itself quite actively promoted roleplay of deep rooted animosity between the surface and the drow.

In recent months, I’ve come across more than a couple followers of Eilliastraee who actively advocate save the good drow movement. I don’t have a problem with this OOC, but I wanted to gauge the server’s current sentiment on drow tolerance. Should we go with the flow and embrace eventual Drow-on-surface settlements, or generally subscribe to Arelith’s heritage stance of dead drow is good drow?

I’ll take the question to the poll.

[Lorkas]

Good drow are flatly not allowed without the use of a normal reward.

The use of that reward allows only the mechanical ability to select a good alignment on character creation, and offers no guarantees regarding how other characters are expected to react to the character.

For many surfacers, the only good drow is a dead drow. If your character is one of them, by all means try to murder any drow that try to get too friendly. You know, follow the rules though.

[gilescorey]

eventual Drow-on-surface settlements

Whoa, what? Who said anything about this?

It's just a trend. A certain number of people will play Eilistraee drow or whatever, then when they're tired of their characters they'll move on. It happens with everything.

Personally I don't care. I've played """surface drow""" in the past and regret it deeply but maybe these people feel differently, and that's fine for them. Have your character react to this stuff how you feel he or she ought to react, untainted by whatever opinions you're trying to glean here.

[Garveus]

I think you shouldn't bring this matter into "Polls" subforum, even if your intentions are good. To me personally, it feels like breach of the poll guidelines.

[Ork]

Y'know stereotyping drow is bad, m'kay. They're just a product of social pressures pressed upon them by the matriarchy. You gotta judge them by their actions, not their appearance m'kay?

[Durvayas]

I know a total of five good drow in existance. One of which isn't being actively played, two of which aren't out in the open about their faith.

By comparison to the up to forty or so active drow, I'd say this isn't much of an issue. As an aside, any race can follow Eilistraee. Canonically speaking, the promenade temple in skullport had more than a dozen humans and nine dwarves among its ranks. So what you seem to be having issue with is that these players have been good at drumming up support for them IC.

Thats great! Thats good conflict RP! Rustle up a mob with torches and pitchforks if you like. Its a compelling story. But remember that eventually, these Eilistreans will grow tired, the drow will eventually retire, and the cell will fade away, as Gilescorey said.

[Borin Drakkmurl]

Though I think Bashagain might be extrapolating a little bit too much (but, honestly, from certain ig things, not by a lot), I have to admit his thoughts echo some of mine.

I am sure a lot of this comes from the fact that we're wrinkly old timers, who still have it engrained in our brains the whole "MONSTERS ARE MONSTERS ARE DEATH AND FIRE" thing that was so vehemently impressed upon us during our growing up days.
To the point where even I, some time ago, had to ask the dms about the overall trend of seeing far more Underdarkers (not just drow) up on the surface, inside settlements, because I was no longer sure how I as a player should consider the whole thing, or react.

To be fair, as someone who had also played in the (very) old UD, I also find Andunor to be a bit too..weird, sometimes, even if I do think it was a definite improvement and is a solid addition (and solution).


All of this to say that...while I do agree that 99,9% of this can be handled ig, the fact is that some changes and trends have, indeed, led me to not be so certain on how to aproach certain interactions and moments that I have come up with.

I am not a pvp hound, far from it, but what was once a clear line in this subject, has become a bit blurry.

[flower]

You have reached confusion IG confusion.

I cannot see why not deal with it Ic. As it is exactly what characters would feel and have to deal with.

Noone forbides you to attack us as a core (but we may fight back:) ).

The group with good Drow is actually race mixed.

[Invader_Nym]

I think people might see my good drow accepted by a few people and believe there's been a dramatic shift in policy regarding the treatment of drow.

What people don't see is that the character is very old, has struggled for a long time, and has been killed many times by good-aligned/surfacer players, unprovoked, very much in accordance with the classical Arelithian view that drow should be treated monstrously.

The point I mean to make is that while people may see a good drow being accepted in certain cases in certain places, they're really seeing the tip of the iceberg, and missing the months and months of solid roleplay it took to get to that point.

[flower]

I think people might see my good drow accepted by a few people and believe there's been a dramatic shift in policy regarding the treatment of drow.

What people don't see is that the character is very old, has struggled for a long time, and has been killed many times by good-aligned/surfacer players, unprovoked, very much in accordance with the classical Arelithian view that drow should be treated monstrously.

The point I mean to make is that while people may see a good drow being accepted in certain cases in certain places, they're really seeing the tip of the iceberg, and missing the months and months of solid roleplay it took to get to that point.

As you say. Nym is like two years old almost. Brizshala is ten months +-/

My old companion wondered, after return to server, that Mypn suddenly accepts Drow, but did not see the long history behind. Number of freed slaves, and alike plus many killed UDers in direct / undirect interactions.

[Scurvy Cur]

I think this concern about the integrity of lore-consistent roleplay is coming from a strange source.

[PresidentCthulhu]

Considering that classic drow RP is usually met with, metaphorically speaking, being bashed repeatedly in the face, with a huge "Andunor is not a drow city" sign I would say they might as well be Elistree worshipers.

[Ambigue]

I think this concern about the integrity of lore-consistent roleplay is coming from a strange source.

I don't think anyone mentioned lore. I'm pretty sure this is just a discussion about a perceived trend and someone wanting to not be a jerk about things if attitudes on the server have changed. It's worth talking about every now and then and interesting to hear from the drow side of things.

[DSM-IV]

My view is this a wonderful spin on things. A kind of out of the box type thinking that promotes good story arcs. It isn't a simple good vs bad thing that normally goes on it is a more complex issue. I get the feeling as this sect or faction or group gets a little more exposure other factions will come down hard upon them. In my mind I don't see this leading to a more forgiving surface towards Drow, but more the opposite.

Sooner or later the group will be exposed for having Drow members. This will be seen as a negative by Zealot goods, or used by evil as a means to undermine a good aligned group for their own benefits. Not to mention how they will be treated by UD'ers. The Group will become extremely isolated loosing allies by the handful. It may even boil over into something larger scale. If a larger faction is learned to be helping them in some way.

So, in the end I don't see this as a trend towards more good aligned Drow or even a surface settlement allowing them in. Just a neat story arc that will run its course, and promote good RP all around.

[Ferret Roll]

The Drow of the Underdark book says (pages 46-47) that about 15% of Toril's drow population is goodly/neutral in terms of morality. These groups often end up living in small communities away from drow cities because of the persecution they would face from Lolthites.

The fact they seem a lot more common now to surface characters expecting evil drow is because Eilistraee's commandments to her followers all share the common trait of spreading knowledge that drow can be good, and demonstrating that goodly nature to the surface races.

Being a faith about good publicity, its members are of course going to be a little more noticeable than the evil drow that tend not to worry about spreading an influence with the more decent people of the surface.

I don't think there are a lot of goodly drow, just the ones around are vocal and visible enough to be more recognizable to surface players than the evil ones that spend more time in Andunor.

[Iceborn]

ICly, every drow is an evil MF that wants to stab you on the back at earliest convenience until approved by the people that surrounds my character.
Then they are okay, I guess, but they still creep the magic out of my wizard.

[Bashagain]

I know a total of five good drow in existance. One of which isn't being actively played, two of which aren't out in the open about their faith.

By comparison to the up to forty or so active drow, I'd say this isn't much of an issue.

4/40 is 10%. Good drow should be less than 1% or we should expect Drizzt or a closet case like Soulafein 1 in every 10 PC drow encounter. Given that approximately 1/3 surfacer is of good alignment, I think it brings the drow awfully close to the surface alignment norm.

[Drowble Oh Seven]

ICly, every drow is an evil MF that wants to stab you on the back at earliest convenience until approved by the people that surrounds my character.
Then they are okay, I guess, but they still creep the magic out of my wizard.

Look. It's not our fault your back is so stabable.

[Nitro]

I know a total of five good drow in existance. One of which isn't being actively played, two of which aren't out in the open about their faith.

By comparison to the up to forty or so active drow, I'd say this isn't much of an issue.

4/40 is 10%. Good drow should be less than 1% or we should expect Drizzt or a closet case like Soulafein 1 in every 10 PC drow encounter. Given that approximately 1/3 surfacer is of good alignment, I think it brings the drow awfully close to the surface alignment norm.

No need to worry then, in the month of June (the most recent racial tally), dunshine reported 277 different drow active(Second most played race!). For there to be 10% of those being good drow, that'd be an impressive 28 (rounded up) good drow. If Durvayas hits on the mark, and there are two to four goodly drow currently active, possibly not even openly, that's a pretty small minority of the population. You likely just notice it more because one or more of them are currently in the spotlight of IC politics.

[flower]

There are several Drow in the factions. 3 are quaranteed good aligment, one I have no clue of, and one is not active, and one evil one (seeking redemption). There may be more who are still hidden or inactive.

The point is before each of them went on his/her own. The developtment IG dictated change and it happened so. While my priest is not going on some wild streams of killing evil brethen, her companions often do. And when each of them was working on his own, it gave no sense for my priest to stay aside and not gather them together.

So they were formed into a semi organised group. It consists of public active Drow (like Briz) who are face of group and do daily buisness with surfacers and her only ties with Andunor are occasial encounters on surface/below. But also of known but hideous members, who operate under disguises and constantly undermine Andunor.

Each of them can pick his own playstyle and still fit the group. The group can grow, either trough non Drow members or more Drow joining them. Bashagain runs mostly into Brizshala and Nym. Those are the two who represent group on public. As stated above, it is dogma of goddess of my priest, to act openly without deceit (not valid vs evil). Our characters are very active and thus encourage the feeling that we are numerous (which we are not).


All this is IG developtment. None of our characters were supposed to organise a group when started. The group was formed to provide priestly role play to characters following Eilistraee, to gather and cooperate acts of them against EVIL forces (matters not origin), to support each other and to provide help to other Drow seeking light. Most good Drow in past were often shelved because there was no point of developtment at certain time of their existence. Now, they may stay spies for months or have a group to join up with if driven off Andunor.


The gameplay is hard. You never know how the other unknown person would react to you. To play on surface you do NEED levels. Least 10+. But the challenge is what makes it fun, and the controversion when evil persons mistakes you for buddies (and are shocked in return) is hilarious. It also breaks archetype of good / evil which is often fun. Especially when some low-moral (necromancer, demon fiddlers) based character tries to gather people to torch you.

Edit: members are of course also non Drow races. I did not include them because of what the topic is.

[Ferret Roll]

4/40 is 10%. Good drow should be less than 1% or we should expect Drizzt or a closet case like Soulafein 1 in every 10 PC drow encounter. Given that approximately 1/3 surfacer is of good alignment, I think it brings the drow awfully close to the surface alignment norm.

Some few (perhaps 15% of all) drow are deemed "good" (actually, most are better described as Lawful or Chaotic neutral in alignment) by other races. They look to the surface, and worship Eilistraee, turning their backs on the darkness their brethren have embraced.

[Gnarh]

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=12657

Someone needs to lock this thread. Irongron, Mith, and JJ have clearly stated for a very long time that this is not a discussion.

[Dunisbane]

I think I was a little strong worded when making this post originally. I'll just say that I think the roleplay is fine as it is. That the idea of the Eilistraeens drow is fine and is lore friendly. That the idea of a small group of them getting together isn't all together unexpected. (Its happened in the past) And that the people roleplaying on all sides is fine from what I've seen. I don't like the idea of it possibly leaking to out of game being good for anyone on any side, and I don't think that the rule of them being monsterlike characters is being violated. (They aren't walking out in the open inside of surface settlements)

[Invader_Nym]

Someone needs to lock this thread. Irongron, Mith, and JJ have clearly stated for a very long time that this is not a discussion.

If anything I think someone coming in and telling us what we can and can't civilly and respectfully discuss is a little bit strident.

[Dunisbane]

Sorry if I come off that way at all. I don't mean to. My concern mainly lies with it turns to an argument about players playing their characters correctly which was sort of the vibe I got with the request to lock the thread. The interest about the change in dynamic I didn't mean to speak poorly of in itself.