Barbarian Rage

[Wytchee]

Fewer damage perks and more damage mitigation perks, perhaps? The stereotypical 2h barbarian is going to have crap for AC. Have these bonuses apply only when wielding a 2h weapon. Perhaps give them natural regeneration. But remove the flat bonus to damage.

The answer, I know for certain, is not to buff weapon masters.

[Lorkas]

Regeneration would be a cool way to distinguish them. I'd hesitate to give them even more damage mitigation, since they're already on par with DDs in that respect. Unless DDs will get a buff, so that they're better than barbs at that one thing.

I'd be okay also if their actual damage was higher than a WM, but their AB was lower by a greater margin so that the archetype could be that barbarians swing harder and a bit more wildly, while WMs are more precise.

[Wytchee]

They're a few points short of DD, but if I'm honest DDs are due for some love as well. Investing 19 levels into a prestige class should pay of more than it does for them imo.

[Lorkas]

They're short of DD in terms of DR, but barb gets more DI. In practical terms, this means that a lv 18 DD will take 1-3 HP less of damage on any hits less than 45 HP than a barbarian will, and the barb will take a few points less than the DD on any hits above that. If hit for 100 points of damage, the barb is taking 61 damage and the DD is talking 69. This is assuming both characters take EDR and wear gear with 10% DI, and that the barb has 23-25 barb levels.

[Commie]

Fewer damage perks and more damage mitigation perks, perhaps? The stereotypical 2h barbarian is going to have crap for AC. Have these bonuses apply only when wielding a 2h weapon. Perhaps give them natural regeneration. But remove the flat bonus to damage.

The answer, I know for certain, is not to buff weapon masters.

I wish Ki-strike was an actual class ability that did something. I know WM's are a good class but there's still got to be a way to make ki-strike worthwhile.

[gilescorey]

I think if you wanted to do cool stuff with their active ability you ought to gate it behind having a lot of WM levels, just like blackguards. Sure, you can take a dip and be good -- or you can go 16 levels for their cool shit and be also good, or arguably better.

And plus daddy wants his 11/16/3 meta :]

[Commie]

Yeah, starting at 10 wm or something ki-strike does a -thing-. At like 15+ it does a lot of a thing.

[Ork]

They're short of DD in terms of DR.

I don't think it's fair to compare barbarians to DD saying that barbarians shouldn't out preform DD in damage reduction, when the prestige class DD is a poor and arguably worthless prestige class to begin with. If we're interested in progressing classes to balance niche, we need to start somewhere.

Barbarians have always been a damage reduction class, and DD needs a different niche that DR - something hopefully someone will look at in the future

[Mustard]

Let Dwarven Defenders -Guard more than one person at a time.

[Wytchee]

Let Dwarven Defenders -Guard more than one person at a time.

AC and Fort bonus for having more than one Dwarven Defender in proximity.

Shield Wall!

[Xuuldar]

So in essence, you want the barbarian to be no better or even worse than the WM when raging, and far worse when not? Why in the world would anyone ever play a barbarian in that scenario?

Nope, that's a really bad summary of what I was saying. I want them both to be good options, but in different ways, like I said above. If we've got a prestige class that justs boosts damage (WM), I want it to be one of the best at dealing damage. If we have another prestige class that is focused totally on damage mitigation (DD), I want it to be the best at mitigating damage. Right now, barbarian can outdamage a WM in rage mode and can outdefend a dwarven defender.

So, first question is, does the new Barbarian actually out damage a WM? I see peppermint's numbers but not sure exactly how they are derived so, does that take crits into consideration? Cortex said it in his post...

Total Damage: Due to WM's criticals, the WM will always out damage a barbarian, they have no down time, and due to massive critical damage, can more easily hurt DR/DI based mobs/characters, and interrupt spells.

the WM is going to get more crits due to expanded crit range and the crits are going to be much bigger. So is the Barbarian really doing more actual damage? No.

Next, I think the big part that people seem to gloss over and ignore is "when raging". The WM is always on, always awesome. A non-raging barbarian is far worse on all fronts when not raging. So if they are no better when raging, then what would be the point in playing one? Why play a WM that sucks half the time?

I get what you are saying but the issue is, what is left? If the WM is the damage king, DD is the Mitigation king then what is left for Barbarian that would make them worthwhile?

My biggest issue is that this rework takes away the essence of the barbarian. Barbarians had their niche which was being the only class to not be built around AC but now the rework makes a level dip for tumble mandatory. It's not a barbarian anymore, it's now a WM with an anger management issue. This rework has screwed every current barbarian and made playing a pure barbarian out of the question.

For the barbarian in this new format to be viable and desirable to play, they have to get something. Biteback/low AC was their niche but that was removed, so now they have temporary burst damage/mitigation and you want that removed. So if you remove the burst damage the question is what could replace it? Cause something has to replace it.

[Cortex]

I was not 100% correct in that post, as Peppermint later stated. Barbarian out-damages WM exclusively during rage. In rage down time, WM is far stornger.

[Commie]

The two classes are very close in damage. WM gets utterly disabled by any enemy that can't be crit (including some PC builds, and entire swaths of dungeon content), whereas Barbarian is cool-down based and occasionally needs to wait a few rounds between pulls. Barbarian also has class features, lots more HP, and a better base save spread favoring fort.

Not to mention not needing tons of stats, so the current meta build of half-orc into tiefling for bonkers +6 starting str or +4 con is viable for anyone who has major reward powers, giving them a huge mechanical advantage. Something the WM build has a harder time doing due to needing int/dex.

[Lorkas]

I wouldn't say WM is far stronger. WM deals more damage than non-raging barbarian by about the same amount that a level 7 WM is stronger than a level 5 WM (~20%). In rage, barbarian deals 7% more damage than a WM, out of rage 20% less than a WM.

So 62% of the time (average of 17 rounds out of every 27 rounds if the barbarian has +12 CON mod) they're 7% higher damage than a WM, and 38% of the time they're 20% less damage than a WM, assuming that the barbarian instantly activates the rage the instant it's available all the time. So in reality, the ability can be utilized more efficiently to get a higher-than-62% combat uptime for the rage ability (potentially even 100% uptime for a patient barbarian who only engages in battles when their rage is available, and not at all afterward).

So if the barbarian is not thoughtful about rage timing and just activates it the instant they can (even if not in combat), this works out to an overall average of 3.26% less damage than a WM would get, across all encounters. Again, the barbarian always has the choice to wait out the CD and give themselves a more favorable ratio. As long as at least 26 of their 100 seconds of downtime are between battles, on average, they're equalizing with a WM in average damage.

If the barbarian has mighty rage, this minimum uptime increases to an average of 73% (27 rounds out of every 37) and a maximum downtime of only 27%. In this scenario, the unintelligent strategy of activating rage the instant it's available gives the barbarian an average damage only 0.29% below a WM's. Any intelligent timing of the ability at all puts them above the WM on average, essentially. As long as they are not in combat for only 2 seconds of their cooldown, they equalize with a WM's damage on average in this scenario.

[Wytchee]

Put Ki Damage on a 1 turn cooldown and have it do something that's useful, like provide Massive Criticals.

Though weapon masters are already top-tier in PvP, so it's a fine line between 'helpful and fun' and 'overpowering.'

[hoshi]

WM has been Flavor of the Decade for NWN and is often the standard used to measure pretty much any other melee build. I think throwing it combat perks would create more balancing issues as it would shift the goal posts for every other melee class.

It is not that I'm against any modifications, or to make it more worthwhile with more levels invested, I'd just rather see limited Dev time spent on other classes (rogue, assassin, etc).

[Invader_Nym]

WM suffers from the same problem I mentioned earlier, which is that it isn't sufficiently counter-balanced by limitations/penalties, which is why it's the premiere melee build.

[Commie]

WM suffers from the same problem I mentioned earlier, which is that it isn't sufficiently counter-balanced by limitations/penalties, which is why it's the premiere melee build.

????

It isn't?

[Hunter548]

WM suffers from the same problem I mentioned earlier, which is that it isn't sufficiently counter-balanced by limitations/penalties, which is why it's the premiere melee build.

????

It isn't?

WM still largely is the premiere melee build, yes -- Due to a combination of simplicity, a huge glut of feats allowing for high saves, very good damage, passable AC and high ab. Some builds will outclass it, but WM remains (despite recent updates) near or at the top, depending on how much effort you put into gearing them.

WM suffers from the same problem I mentioned earlier, which is that it isn't sufficiently counter-balanced by limitations/penalties, which is why it's the premiere melee build.

WM is counterbalanced by gear and UMD reliance. Recent changes to equipment have made them less amazing than they used to be (It's harder to keen MDamask), and the clarity change plus adding certain things to the breach list helps as well.

[Peppermint]

It wasn't so long ago that WMs were the undisputed god kings of the server. They've since been knocked down a peg, due to a combination of targeted nerfs and buffs to their competitors, but they're still very strong. Anyone that tells you they aren't top tier* is either lying or trying to sell you something.

(* Albeit no longer S-tier)