Too Much DM insertion

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Marsi
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Re: Too Much DM insertion

Post by Marsi » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:53 am

DM GrumpyCat wrote:There's a very interesting conversation, and consideration, to be had here between:

'The Players should not ignore the presence of the NPCs'

and

'The NPCs should not be the ones to entirely dictate the actions of the players.' (inform yes, but not dictate)

Where this line lies I'm not entirely sure.
That's a difficult question, and I think it's more about the DM possessing the intuition to know what respects player agency, and what doesn't. In my opinion, DM NPCs should always be one step behind the players. They are reactive, not proactive. A player makes a move, the DM makes a move. It goes turn by turn. A DM should never make two moves in a row.

I'm going to use an example that perfectly illustrates my point. There's no ill-will, it's long past, and I'm not trying to name and shame any one DM. In Cordor circa June/July, there was some sort of tumult that involved magic getting out of control. In response, the Elite Guards stepped in and condemned the mages responsible and magic as a whole. That's great! NPCs reacted to the very loud and public actions of players, which makes sense. But things were taken a step further. I believe the King got involved, PCs were tried by DM NPCs, and then a DM NPC posted a proclamation on the board dictating how things were going to be (ie. magic is banned). That wasn't so great. The PC government of Cordor was not consulted or actually really involved in this in any meaningful way, and then with the magic ban, essentially their hand was being forced. That sucked, because having power that had been earned IG ignored or countermanded at the whim of supremely powerful NPCs breaches the player reality and sabotages that player's position. I feel like there were NPCs conjured up that could have been roles filled by players who deserved it.

What I believe should have happened was that things stopped at the NPC guards' condemnation, and the players were left to ruminate the gravity of what had happened, and do as they willed. The players expended their turn, then the DMs expended theirs. However, the DMs violated this equilibrium and took another turn. It felt like it wasn't: "well, these mages are getting a bit out of control, I'm going to make sure they understand their actions have consequences, because surely these Elite Guards are gonna have a problem here", but rather: "y'know what'd be cool? If magic got banned in Cordor".

Fortunately, the laws were being rewritten at the time, and the PC government, myself included, were able to have fun with this magic ban foisted on us, and use it for our own purposes. However, things got worse and worse. It got to the point where some of the upper echelon of Cordor considered if they were going to have to stage a revolution against these seriously tyrannical Elite guards.

edit: to expand a little. Let me draw a comparison to the Wharftown bombardment. It was clear that the primary motivating force wasn't "y'know, it'd be sick if Wharftown just got like, blown up or something" but rather, some (from the perspective of the admin team) things were happening IG that demanded the attention of important NPCs. The DMs made their turn -- making their proclamations. And then the players were left to respond. And it was very clear that the players had the important roles. It was fantastically handled all round, imo.

disclaimer: again, no ill-will with the specific example. If it's too particular, I'll happily edit it and find a more generalised situation to draw on.

---

I think this "players take a turn, DM's take a turn" idea is a little undeveloped, but it's a good starting point in discussing the relationship between players and DMs. When a DM takes two turns instead of waiting for the players to take theirs, it gives the impression that the DM is not so much interested in empowering the players and bringing the world to life as they are impatiently fast-tracking their carefully scripted headcanon.

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Re: Too Much DM insertion

Post by Durvayas » Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:00 am

I'm partly amused by this thread, because in the UD, we never have this problem. Its very rare to see a DM event down here if it hasn't been expressly asked for by a player.
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Re: Too Much DM insertion

Post by All The Sinners Saints » Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:09 am

While I have been away for the end of summer and cannot comment on how things may be currently, I just wanted to state that one of the things that drew me to Arelith from my old server was the insane player agency, and very light dm touch on IG happenings. I hope that does no change.

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Re: Too Much DM insertion

Post by yellowcateyes » Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:15 am

Breathing life into the gameworld through responsive and lifelike NPCs is a valued role for DMs.

That said, there are clear indications of when a DM presence crosses over from welcome worldbuilding to smothering overbearance.

Here's the big one. DMs should not be leading and directing factions.

A symbolic figurehead (King Edward or Patrician Vetinari or whoever) is a useful back-up in case there's an unhealthy situation in the server's starter city. But generally, politics is much more dynamic if players are calling the shots. DMs taking up this role leads to several issues.

1) The movement of plot becomes dependent on one person. The current server mechanics allow for other PCs to step in if an existing leader becomes inactive; things remain fluid since any gaps in IC leadership are filled by others wanting to take the role.

DMs are no less prone to becoming inactive or dropping schedules than player-characters. When the direction of entire settlements or factions start to depend on timely DM action, then things grow stagnant.

2) Unearned leadership. PCs generally have to earn the trust of enough people that they're able to take and hold a leadership position. This entails bonds and friendships made, wealth accrued, power displayed, favors given, etc. PCs seeking leadership risk creating enemies even while they win over friends.

DMs assuming leadership by fiat undermine this entire system. Doing so invites (well-earned) resentment.

3) Basic fairness. When PC-run settlements are dealing with each other, everyone is playing by the same system and under the same restrictions. The same mechanics of conflict resolution apply to all the players. You can learn the rules of the game and plan around them.

When a DM is clearly heading up a particular faction, you essentially have a faction that isn't bound by the same rules. Any resolution of any conflict will be suspect. Players start to consider the influence of DM bias in every encounter, which isn't healthy for the server.
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Re: Too Much DM insertion

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:50 am

Marsi wrote: It got to the point where some of the upper echelon of Cordor considered if they were going to have to stage a revolution against these seriously tyrannical Elite guards.
Another perspective on this- I cannot name a single member of the PC guard at the time that had a problem with this proclamation, speaking as a player of one of said guards who happens to be a true flame.

OOC'ly I experienced dislike for the fact that such a large zone was made into an antimagic area by NPC's, specifically because there is no PC with the ability to create or destroy antimagic areas- but I was entirely on-board with both the reaction and enforcement IC.

I mean- from my perspective- dropping a hellball in the middle of the main road through the starter city gates is the in-game equivalent of of flying a plane into the twin towers. The negative elemental was like an anthrax attack. But no one in the streets of Cordor was complaining about that- they were all too busy being upset at the injustice that they couldn't walk around with flaming shields and elemental wards.

This lead me to get over the initial ooc dislike very quickly because I felt as though characters were not taking the enormity of what had happened seriously enough, which IMO necessitates an IC hammer-drop to adjust perspectives.

This post has focused a lot on this specific example because it's the only one I can relate to, but it's directed at highlighting that line between not ignoring NPC's and not having NPC's dictate the actions of players. Sometimes the DM's need to outline IC that the world does not react well to what's happening.

I can't help but feel that a vast majority of these situations are caused by a lack of understanding the expectations between DM's and players regarding the atmosphere of the world.
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Re: Too Much DM insertion

Post by Borgian Oligarchy » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:17 am

I think overall, this has been a decent discussion.

I'd like to clarify, that as players, we do not vilify the DMs. Many of the people posting here, including myself, have done our time as a DM and we know that it gets hairy sometimes.

We could list all the things we appreciate about DMs, but there have been other threads for that. This one has a very distinct purpose. It is NOT to bash DMs. It is to point out a growing trend that has had many very good, very respected players bothered. It's not easy for some of us to post this stuff publicly. It's much easier to just mutter in Discord about it.

But I think this discussion needed to happen. While I don't apologize for mentioning this, I do hope that any hurt feelings mend quickly, that people who read it understand the intent behind it, and that no one's a bad person on either side of the issue for having feelings, doing something with good intentions, or trying to make Arelith a little better. I think ultimately, that's our goal in expressing this even as it is the DMs' goal when they make quests. Sometimes though in our best efforts, we rub others the wrong way. End of the day, it IS a game. You are real people with real feelings and it was not the intent to hurt those feelings.

Regards.

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Re: Too Much DM insertion

Post by Wytchee » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:39 am

I'll just throw in my voice, but be brief about it. Note that I have never been a DM nor do I ever intend to be. I don't have the patience for it and I'm awed by those that do. Congrats.

But, sometimes there are so many epic plot arcs going on at once that I lose track and end up feeling left out of the loop and unimportant. I know others feel this way, too. There always seems to be something epic going on on the other side of the island, but it always feels so exclusive.

Personally, I would like to see more small, compact events for individuals and adventuring groups rather than so many big, epic, weeks-long quest arcs that just end up exhausting everyone. :/

And I say this as a player who years ago would have lamented a lack of DM involvement.
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Re: Too Much DM insertion

Post by Invader_Nym » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:12 am

Maybe it's because I play an underdark character, but to me the thought of being overwhelmed with too many DM-driven plot arcs seems rather lovely to me.

I will say when quests involve too many players it has the tendency to reduce the potential impact each individual player can have, which is frustrating as a player. I know for me personally, I never want to feel as though my agency has been taken from me; when you have 15 players involved in the same quest it often feels like the story has a forward momentum that's impervious to your choices.

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Re: Too Much DM insertion

Post by MalKalz » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:10 am

To give my piece, which is solely based around myself and does not reflect the rest of the team. We are all different people with different styles, but that being said I'll try to shed some light on what I do:

Quests are not at the top of my priority list. Why? I feel as though the players dictate the world and tell a story where I am unneeded to. I rather not be a narrator but a participant in each and every story that goes on that wants my presence. Since I have become a DM, I have run a few quests: the Wharftown Refugees (as part of an aftermath) and a quest about morality (brought on from talking to a player).

These quests are open-ended. I never had a set plan for any of them. I allowed the roleplay of the group to dictate what happened and I wanted the groups to enjoy themselves and tell their story. As much as I do not posses NPCs all the time, I do observe. I have been watching Cordor and other faction interactions and political agendas towards the refugees and their contributions, factoring in to how I would approach the next request to continue the plot and share some involvement. But, it comes down to each and every one of you.

Those will be my sort of involvements. And I am eager to tackle more of them to enhance or enrich roleplay involved, but I leave it in the players hands and will always do that. You find more excitement from open-ended situations as it allows for growth, challenge and multiple pathways all at once. A closed event does you no justice.

As for my main duty when I step in: attending to the players. I take that moment to announce my presence, ask if there are questions, concerns and what have you. Why? Because I want to ensure you are having fun and can get things going. This is when I also get those one on one moments where you guys go: "Hey, I have an idea. Can I bounce it off you?" It's always a yes.

But, I tend to sit silently for hours bouncing between groups to listen in and observe. I might possess an NPC and drop one line in a conversation you are having around them, to further question or expand the topic, but otherwise I just sit and watch. Because I'm invested in listening.

I rather spend my time ensuring that griefers or concerns are addressed so that it doesn't hinder your roleplay. And, as a member of the Staff, I do apologize to anyone that feels that a DM has done that. By no means do they intend it. They too want to make a story occur, and if a mistake happens, it's only because we are all human. But, we acknowledge those mistakes and we grow as an individual and team.

I have seen some DMs go into an event and have it go completely opposite as to how they expect to the point where they feel heavily discouraged that they ruined your fun somehow. Which they then take a hiatus. This shows the team cares tremendously for each and every one of you.

We are not here to step on toes and put up walls for your roleplay to encounter. And, I give a sincere apology if we have somehow. That will never be our intention. And the feedback here does allow us to grow as a team.

Thanks.

To add,

And it comes to the point of: are we acknowledging our mistakes, and are we improving? If the answer is no to both, we are failing you. And, we are not looking to do that.

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Re: Too Much DM insertion

Post by Borgian Oligarchy » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:40 am

I sincerely hope every DM adopts this stance as it aligns with the general feel of the server over the last 12 years. Also, thanks for posting it because it's actually really heartening to see that someone gets what we were trying to say here.

I've been married 21 years, and it's tricky to address issues without hurting the other person. Obviously I failed in this instance, which is sort of sad, but win some lose some.

I have to deal with critique on a regular basis at work and I've just gotten used to the ebb and flow of "We like this about what you're doing, we don't like this." End of the day even my best intentions fall short and I have to do a redo. It happens.

I don't think less of anyone for having shortcomings. I admire people who learn from feedback though. So thanks for that last line.

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Re: Too Much DM insertion

Post by Dunshine » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:29 am

I'm going to leave the topic in place, since I don't mind a general discussion about this, but I'll remove all posts targetting specific DMs, people, events. To save me the trouble of PM-ing all of you who've been edited with the reasoning of the editing. This is it. I will PM you the original texts.

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Re: Too Much DM insertion

Post by Cerk Evermoore » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:30 am

I almost never see DM events in the Underdark either.

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Re: Too Much DM insertion

Post by Mango Reinhardt » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:40 am

Perhaps some of the issues outlined here come from a case of too many cooks in one Arelith kitchen. As has been mentioned earlier in the thread, when a group of players get something cool going, often several DMs develop interest independently and decide to run a story set around said players actions. While this can be really cool and appreciated when one or even two DMs does so, it can quickly become rather daunting.

As an example, some years ago I ran (what I thought was) a fairly successful guard faction. We had 20+ active members, and at any given time Cordor would have between 2 and 10 or so Guards online and doing stuff. It was really fun, and we had a ton of great characters driving our story, both within the faction and in the form of government officials, citizens, villains and criminals alike.

During this time, several DMs took interest in the very active Cordor and ran large scale, multi part events, each of which was extremely well done and generally very enjoyable. However, what tended to happen was... just as we were dealing with the aftermath of X invasion, Y ebill god starts venting wrath on the city, and while that aftermath is going on, some other large scale thing happens, often with major overlap.

There were several major effects of this. The first was that the lower level members of the faction started dropping off at an alarming rate and making new characters, as these tended to be the people dying in each and every event, often feeling somewhat left out or useless. The second was then many well crafted but smaller scale player plots continually fell to the wayside and remained constant open cases, or worse simply went unnoticed, as players felt compelled to deal with DM plots. The third, and possibly the most unfortunate in my eyes, was that the Guard fell under nearly constant scrutiny and criticism, both IC as the populace grew bitter over their inability to protect against the constant threats, and OOC as the players of various criminal or villain characters felt ignored or snubbed by our inability to give our attention.

All in all, it was somewhat disheartening, particularly since we felt conflicted about making any complaints, as we did truly appreciate all the work that went into the various stories. Any one of the aforementioned plots would have been amazing to be a part of, and I would hate for my post to discourage any DMs from participating in storytelling.

What I would suggest is that perhaps DMs communicate when planning their plots to ensure that they do not overlap, and more importantly, perhaps communicate with the various involved player factions to ensure that there are not already open player made plots that might be upstaged. It can be a bit frustrating when you put a lot of time and effort into an IG event or story only to have a DM plot come knocking on your faction's door five minutes in that 100% demands the faction's attention from a story perspective.
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Re: Too Much DM insertion

Post by Cortex » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:11 am

Diegovog wrote:
DarkDreamer wrote:Why is it players feel the need to cry when a DM steps up because of something that happened in game, they responded because the Temple to Bane was bought out by the Triad. Seriously, it was abandoned and they acted on an action that should never have taken place. The DM never said "Hey, I am gonna lead this now forever and its a DM faction you have to beg to be a part of"...it was a simple, Hey the Banites still exist, we should still be feared, the Mainland sent backup, Dreadlord is NOT the leader of the Temple, anyone that plays a Banite knows the Imperceptor which HAS to be a priest leads. So yeah.
"Should never have taken place."

Wow... Now we have someone who has no idea what happened telling us what should or should not have happened.

First, I'll leave this here:
OverTheSeaToSkye wrote:DarkDreamer, I strongly suggest you take a step back and cool off. You're coming across as extremely rude and confrontational, and I doubt it will end the way you want it to.
I'm not going to get into details of this as requested by Dunshine. I'll just let you all know that we did this to bring banites back into activity, to give them a reason to fight for something. My idea was always to lose the place and have some fun while at it. The idea was to have the banites WIN and earn the place back (we didn't destroy any fixture, didn't steal anything and then let the DMs know what happened)... One of our members even has a banite character... I wanted to promote some bane players activity, afterall, we want our evil counterpart to be a threat to us. And just want to let it be known that not a single NPC was able to break my disguise in there.
To not post in the other thread, I'll address this here.

Buying a quarter in 'enemy territory' won't get you a positive reaction (I have done it before with the same intent, and it was a shitshow of which I regret), it wouldn't cause sleeping banites to suddenly become active with the thought of "yay conflict rp", they'd be apathic or even feel disrespected OOCly, taunted.

I highly advise against buying quarters from enemy settlements/factions to get an IC reaction, largely because it's not IC. Why should the NPCs allow you to buy it on the first place, if they know you're an enemy? Isn't that technically ignoring NPCs and metagaming?

I am no DM or Admin to rule this nor do I have any authority, and perhaps they have a differing opinion if they decide to voice it.
:)

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Re: Too Much DM insertion

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:31 am

I realize I'm brushing close to talking about specific situations here, but I'll try to keep this general.

The connundrum we face comes down to this:

Point 1) It is foolish that PC's should buy or own quarters wherein the npcs would stop them.

Counter Point 1) It also creates a bit too much of a 'safe space' if we prevent it entirely, it can lead to accusations of 'too much insertion' and it is generally a little unhealthy for PC actions to be too much shaped by NPC actions, for reasons more eloquently stated above.

Whilst I don't like the idea of the Baby Eaters guild taking over the Angelic Love Guild, it also doesn't seem fair that the Angelic Love Guild can languish putting 0 effort into their faction, not bother to keep up any activity, and yet not recieve any consequences at all for their inactivity.(1). It can also dissuade the Baby Eaters guild from doing anything at all, for fear that a DM will come down and stomp on them.


(1) This is purely fictional, purely an example, not meant as any accusation, or suggestion to any actual events in game.
This too shall pass.

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Re: Too Much DM insertion

Post by Individual Thought Patterns » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:32 am

ayyyyyyyyy bruh if you don't like an event don't play in it boieee just be happy that they actually take the time to do it in the first place

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Re: Too Much DM insertion

Post by Liareth » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:33 am

I can see two complaints here:

1) In particular, during a recent event, the ownership of an inactive guild house was claimed by a DM in order to protect the integrity of the guild house after it was purchased and vandalised by members of an opposing religion, despite the presence of NPCs in the guild house. Some players view this action as inappropriate.

2) In general, the frequency of DM events is too high for some player’s enjoyment. This leads to new players feeling left out during the execution of events because their level isn’t high enough to contribute, and faction leaders feeling burnt out because they have to deal with the consequences of the event.

Before I address both of these points, I want to make it clear that I think posting this thread on the public forums was inappropriate. How would you feel if I made a public thread calling out your recent actions which I perceived to be wrong, thereby creating a space where others feel validated to pile on with their own criticisms?

I’m not trying to dismiss your complaints – I think they have merit. But the way they have been communicated is inappropriate and unfair. Forming a lynch mob is not how you should act. If you believe that a situation has been handled poorly, there are private channels through which you can offer feedback to those who can do something about it.

With that out of the way …

On 1):

Let me clear up what happened:

- Due to the Banite faction’s inactivity, ownership of the Banite guild house expired.
- Spotting an opportunity to create conflict RP, members of the Triad faction purchased the guild house and vandalised some of the signs before leaving.
- This was obviously inappropriate (though well-intentioned) due to the presence of the NPCs in the guild house.
- To rectify the situation, the DM warned the players who purchased the quarter, then took ownership away from them.
- This was the correct response to the situation.
- In an attempt to create some RP from the situation, the DM decided to send a Banite force from the mainland to assist. The DM also reached out to members of the Banite faction the best they could in an attempt to get them involved.
- Some players may believe this was not the correct response, though I think it was fine. It created RP that many players enjoyed.
- The DM decided to take interim ownership of the still vacant quarter.
- This is the point of contention.

I have read through all of your posts on this. I’ve noted the language you’ve used in some of them – “want to lead”, “DM avatar”, “DM character”, “inserting”, etc. This makes it clear to me that the reason you’re upset about this is that you feel a DM tried has usurped your faction from you, which you view as an abuse of power. I can see why you might feel that way – but it’s also the most negative way you could possibly paint the events which transpired.

I do think it was the wrong decision for the DM to take interim ownership of the guild house, but I need to make it clear that the DM didn’t do it to take usurp the faction, or to insert their DM avatar into a position of power for the sake of power. It was a decision made to protect the Banite guild house.

If you had taken a moment to talk to the DM about their intentions, this entire situation might have been avoided. Please don’t interpret that as me blaming you for the actions of another person – I’m not. I’m just highlighting how your reaction caused the situation to escalate far beyond what it should have done.

The DM team will release the guild house, though note that any attempts to purchase the quarter by the “enemy” while there are NPCs present will result in the ownership of the guild house being released again.

On 2):

I think this is definitely a valid criticism, and something I hope the DM team takes on board as they move forwards. DM Spyre nailed my outlook on how I think DM team should act: observe and encourage and foster and inspire 90% of the time, and create quests the other 10%.

We tend to see more “epic quests” from newer DMs, while older DMs tend to prefer “supporting quests”. With every DM rotation, you see a flurry of activity initially, which dies off after some time. I’m not sure if there’s a good way to change this. New DMs tend to be very excited about creating cool things, and they like to jump in head first.

I’ve run out of typing time so I’ll leave the post here: hands-on vs hands-off is a difficult balance to strike, and the "correct" balance is down to interpretation, which varies from player to player. If you think the balance is erring too far in either direction, feel free to contact the DM team about it.

Forum topics like this one can work, but you need to take extra care to make sure they don’t address a particular situation, which is very difficult in the heat of the moment when you feel frustrated and wronged – you made the attempt here, but I don’t think it came across the way you intended it to.

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Re: Too Much DM insertion

Post by Diegovog » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:34 am

Cortex wrote: To not post in the other thread, I'll address this here.

Buying a quarter in 'enemy territory' won't get you a positive reaction (I have done it before with the same intent, and it was a shitshow of which I regret), it wouldn't cause sleeping banites to suddenly become active with the thought of "yay conflict rp", they'd be apathic or even feel disrespected OOCly, taunted.

I highly advise against buying quarters from enemy settlements/factions to get an IC reaction, largely because it's not IC. Why should the NPCs allow you to buy it on the first place, if they know you're an enemy? Isn't that technically ignoring NPCs and metagaming?

I am no DM or Admin to rule this nor do I have any authority, and perhaps they have a differing opinion if they decide to voice it.
How would they know I'm their enemy if not a single one broke my disguise?
Or are you saying such guildhouses should not expire as none who hasn't gone through a hard background check will ever be able to own it?

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Re: Too Much DM insertion

Post by Borin Drakkmurl » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:42 am

Diegovog wrote:
Cortex wrote: To not post in the other thread, I'll address this here.

Buying a quarter in 'enemy territory' won't get you a positive reaction (I have done it before with the same intent, and it was a shitshow of which I regret), it wouldn't cause sleeping banites to suddenly become active with the thought of "yay conflict rp", they'd be apathic or even feel disrespected OOCly, taunted.

I highly advise against buying quarters from enemy settlements/factions to get an IC reaction, largely because it's not IC. Why should the NPCs allow you to buy it on the first place, if they know you're an enemy? Isn't that technically ignoring NPCs and metagaming?

I am no DM or Admin to rule this nor do I have any authority, and perhaps they have a differing opinion if they decide to voice it.
How would they know I'm their enemy if not a single one broke my disguise?
Or are you saying such guildhouses should not expire as none who hasn't gone through a hard background check will ever be able to own it?

You,yourself, however, know you are their enemy. That's where that good ol' Arelithian tradition of: "Bending your rp to allow the enjoyment of others" kicks in.

The Banite Guildhouse is not a random, non descript building. The Npcs in it either. It is obviously there to serve as greater theme for the game world. Ignoring all of these things creates nothing productive in the long run.
Past characters: Daedin Angthalion; Lurg Norgar; Urebriwyn; Ubaldo Ferraz; Erodash Uzdshak; Borin; Belchior Heliodoro; Orestes Fontebela

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Cortex
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Re: Too Much DM insertion

Post by Cortex » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:44 am

Diegovog wrote:
Cortex wrote: To not post in the other thread, I'll address this here.

Buying a quarter in 'enemy territory' won't get you a positive reaction (I have done it before with the same intent, and it was a shitshow of which I regret), it wouldn't cause sleeping banites to suddenly become active with the thought of "yay conflict rp", they'd be apathic or even feel disrespected OOCly, taunted.

I highly advise against buying quarters from enemy settlements/factions to get an IC reaction, largely because it's not IC. Why should the NPCs allow you to buy it on the first place, if they know you're an enemy? Isn't that technically ignoring NPCs and metagaming?

I am no DM or Admin to rule this nor do I have any authority, and perhaps they have a differing opinion if they decide to voice it.
How would they know I'm their enemy if not a single one broke my disguise?
Or are you saying such guildhouses should not expire as none who hasn't gone through a hard background check will ever be able to own it?
I think the DM and admin replies above cover this query better than I could. But to explain further, once you buy it, your name is on the sign, not your disguise. That is public knowledge.
:)

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The GrumpyCat
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Re: Too Much DM insertion

Post by The GrumpyCat » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:47 am

- Due to the Banite faction’s inactivity, ownership of the Banite guild house expired.
- Spotting an opportunity to create conflict RP, members of the Triad faction purchased the guild house and vandalised some of the signs before leaving.
- This was obviously inappropriate (though well-intentioned) due to the presence of the NPCs in the guild house.
- To rectify the situation, the DM warned the players who purchased the quarter, then took ownership away from them.
- This was the correct response to the situation.
#

Just to add something else.

The Players who purchased the Guiildhouse were good enough to let us know that they had. And I believe, though it was released from them, the gold they spent was reimbursed (or it should have been anyway.)

That said, no promises of gold reimursement will be made to any unsuitable character who purchases it in future.
This too shall pass.

(I now have a DM Discord (I hope) It's DM GrumpyCat#7185 but please keep in mind I'm very busy IRL so I can't promise how quick I'll get back to you.)

Nitro
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Re: Too Much DM insertion

Post by Nitro » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:36 am

I generally avoid large-scale DM events like the plague, not because of poor effort from the DM's in question, but because having 20+ people in the same area, all feeling the need to put on visually intensive wards really lags things up, not to mention that when you're just a voice in a vast crowd, it feels like you're doing nothing while faction leader X gets all the spotlight in the event.

So when large-scale events start becoming commonplace somewhere (like say Cordor) is usually when I go integrate myself into another settlement, so that I don't have to interrupt my RP to go berrypicking just to avoid the crowd rushing from all corners of the week to deal with the villain of the week.

Small DM events that just happen for an adventuring party of 2-6 though, are amazing. And those I think could definitely be more prevalent.

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Irongron
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Re: Too Much DM insertion

Post by Irongron » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:57 pm

I am locking this thread, please read below for my reasons.

However politely worded, and however much an attempt was made to frame this as a general concern, it was not. Rather it was in reaction to a specific event by a single DM that adversely affected a player who did not approve of the DM action. In this context it was a clear breach of Rule 5 of Arelith. If anyone is unfamilar with this rule then I advise they read the rules as set out on the main web page. Concerns about a DM or their actions should taken PRIVATELY to myself or one of the admins.

Making their actions the subject of a common debate is not acceptable to me, and I shall step in just as I have when similar threads have targetted players.

What is or isn't appropriate actions for DMs is a matter for myself to decide, and respond to, and is not subject to popular approval from the players in order to be considered valid. An essential part of their job is to have the NPCs and the world in general to react in an approriate fashion. This is a judgement call, and not always an easy one.

I have spent the last weeks working on significant new content for those good aligned paladins and clerics of the isle, just as I previously been working on the Banite Temple, despite this unpleasantness this work shall continue, and I expect it be released within the next fortnight. Like the recent events mentioned above this will require DM support, and the proactive action of resident NPCs in combination with affected players. One is perfectly entitled to consider this 'railroading', but for myself, as the Creative Lead of Arelith it is merely part of the ongoing narrative of the isle.

Finally I would ask everyone to consider what I think to be one of the hardest aspects of taking on the role of DM, and something I have spoken on numerous occasions with our DMS about.

From the moment a DM possesses an NPC they are keenly aware that they are themselves being judged for their ability, quite separately from the story they are attempting to tell. To slip up, rub people the wrong way, or make a decision that goes against the ambitions of a particular player, can quickly lead to that roleplay being heavily undermined by the OOC debate as to whether their conduct is acceptable. I have seen this countless times in the past. It takes considerable courage to step into the spotlight in this way, and I do not envy the DM for doing so.

We don't hire DMs on the understanding they will be popular with the players, and don't make judgements based upon how many people will be pleased by the outcome. If I wish to retain staff I need to not only offer my DMs a degree of autonomy to act in accordance with their own views, but also to guarantee, as far as I am able, that their ability will not be subject to popular debate.

We take any complaint seriously, and are prepared to hear out the concerns of any player, but this MUST be done privately when it concerns any individual on the team.

By all means debate the nature of DMing in general on the forums, but do not attempt to frame specific criticisms in this way under the presumption that it won't be noticed.

Locked