Too Much DM insertion

[Borgian Oligarchy]

There was a time when I played on Amia -- where DMs were basically the leaders of most major factions by way of NPCs. It was not fun. Amia's basically dead because it was so micro-managed by DMs. I was a DM there at the time and told them that it seemed like players were increasingly dependent on DM involvement. It was true and the server became less and less fun the more the DMs did it.

The core fun of Arelith has been that it's been player-driven. Factions come and go, rise and fall according to the players' interest. And most people who are the best leaders do so as PCs. If you want to lead, do so as a PC. If you do it as a DM, it looks like you're too lazy to level a character up and just want to run something.

I am disturbed by a recent trend where quests:

1. Seem to have no real connection to what players are doing but are just DM ideas that they force on us.

2. Seem to have no real path beyond the one that DMs determine and you're basically godmodded into it and railroaded if you can't guess what is in their head.

3. Result in a DM becoming the big invincible boss because they now don't have to level up or have a good build to be in charge. They can play an invincible god in the form of a DM avatar and no one can rise up against them.

I protest this. I can only speak personal opinion when I say this, but it is contrary to the heart and soul of what Arelith has been for the past 12 years. DMs. Please. We love you. But we do not need you to lead, direct, or guide our rp -- just our behavior

As a metaphor,

Fun quests are decorations on the Christmas tree the players put up.
Less fun quests ARE the DM-made tree where players are forced to decorate it the way the DM wants.

[Iceborn]

I haven't returned from my hiatus long enough to truly get a feel of the current DM flow - and even though I loved Amia, it did suffer from DM spoonfeeding at times.

From the few interactions I got myself in, I can't say I'm disappointed. In most cases we had the chance to direct ourselves what was going to happen - plan beforehand how to deal with a situation, and act on it on our accord. But that is merely from my perspective, and I know I am only seeing a small fraction of the plots that my character is involved in.

[Mr_Rieper]

I totally agree. While I'm fond of many of the DMs on the team, and absolutely love some of the stuff that happens from time to time (Ghosts of Benwick and the mischief with the Guldorand Mercantile - you guys know who you are), many of the quests were railroaded and godmoded into being very frustrating. Anybody in my circle knows me as the guy who ABSOLUTELY hates those "defend-or-die" DM quests with railroaded plot points. It gets to an OOC point where I just let other people deal with the game of charades with the DM that it often devolves into. Some characters are known for being able to solve them easily (Does this demonic portal need a fish, or the One Ring?). I avoid them. I log off whenever there's a DM quest nearby.

It's not a major issue, and I'm not bothered by it often, nor do I particularly blame the DMs for it. Being a DM must be difficult, and at the end of the day, they're just trying to make sure we aren't bored. That's generous of them. But there is a certain level of creative discipline needed when it comes to leading quests, I think.

[Sab1]

Edited by Dunshine, since this post is targetting specific DMs/events.

[Borgian Oligarchy]

It's not actually a single event. This is a straw that has piled upon a number of straws over a two-month time frame for me.

[DarkDreamer]

Again, edited by Dunshine, do not target specific people/events please.

[liver and bones]

Edited by Dunshine.

[Sab1]

Edited by Dunshine

[DarkDreamer]

Having been in the middle of the event, I thought it was well done and fun. Honestly, get off the high horse, be grateful the DM took the time to make and event, and get over it.

[OverTheSeaToSkye]

Ignoring the snide comments for the moment.

Borgian's point is correct. I was on Amia with her at the time she's speaking of, and it was not anything we want to replicate here. I don't think we're in danger of that,but I definitely understand why people are feeling railroaded lately.

[Marsi]

I agree with this completely. I desperately hope this discussion stays constructive, because it is a discussion we seriously need to have.

For a long time, you would commonly hear the mantra "smelt not felt". A bit weirdly worded, but it called upon the DMs to be cautious in how they intruded upon the player world. Arelith is host to an extremely complex and sophisticated player ecology, and DM quests are liable to interrupt that. Player agency is the cornerstone of the server.

It's hard for me to express my disappointment with the DMing I've witnessed in recent times, because a few years ago the server was in such a state, and the population so small and ineffectual, that any DM activity was heavenly. However, the server has long recovered from those doldrums and indeed flourishes. DM smothering just does not have a place anymore, and however good the intentions are behind it, it can be calamitous.

This came to a head for me [edited dunshine]. Unwanted DM intrusion was becoming such a regular occurrence in Cordor that it began to seriously disrupt and demotivate the player goings on there. So much productivity was lost in dealing with the clean-up of out-of-touch and random quests that did not seem to respect at all the carefully built ecosystem, hierarchy and narrative settled by the players -- in fact, I was left at times wondering if these DMs even knew who was running the settlement at all. There was nothing outright terrible: more death by a thousand cuts. It was like a game of short-straw to pick who would log in to deal with the madness.

(To clarify: I'm not even talking about the Wharftown bombardment and the decrees of King Edward. That in my mind was an extremely well done plot-line that had a strong player's-first mentality.)

What's worse is that this is only a small part of a greater pattern that I've noticed over the years. It goes like this:
1. Players converge in a small area and create something genuinely cool.
2. A DM or two is attracted to this large, industrious group of players and promptly smothers them.
3. Original players lose sight of the cool things they converged for, having wasted so much time dealing with quest aftermath. Either they are permanently jaded, or they leave, alienated by the social disruption.

It should be noted that I use the word "smother". It is done out of love and excitement, and I in no way have any hard feelings towards the DMs who I feel behave this way. I only wish this positive energy could be channelled in more useful ways that bring the world to life, rather than aggressively play dollhouse with player characters who have better things to do.

[edited dunshine]

[Borgian Oligarchy]

Yeah, I'm not actually trying to be critical of a single DM or a single event. Just noticing a trend. Rather than call recent events THE problem. I'd say that they highlighted a growing issue, which is players are quitting factions and characters where DM coverage is so high it becomes smothering.

[edited partly by dunshine to remove specifics]

Look. We miss just playing without so much mothering. We're like happy little graduates here out on our own. There are some who may like constant DM attention, but Arelith has never had that culture and I'm sad to see it growing.

I could be completely wrong in my point-of-view, I'm one person after all.

Being told to get off my high horse; however, fails to address my concerns and is slightly snide. Please don't do that to me again. It's rude. Stop.

I am not trying to be a jerk here. I'm bringing up a legitimate concern. And I VERY rarely post in forums, so it's obviously something very near to my heart and something I feel is a genuine issue.

[Nyuunie]

[edited by dunshine]

[Scurvy Cur]

[edited by dunshine]

[Borin Drakkmurl]

Stepping out of my bubble of suggestions and screenshots and stories just to chime in very briefly on this:


The only issue that seems to be the constant trend throughout these events, is the lack of communication. Both ways.

Players not communicating their dissatisfaction or confusion or discomfort to the DMs when the time is right (Not afterwards in the forums).

DMs not properly giving their players a clear idea of what their intentions in the short and long run are.

If these two things are improved, I garantee that DM Interaction / Events as a whole will be too.

[Invader_Nym]

I had a great time today and didn't have any problems with how things went down.

This is my first encounter with a DM IC in about 7 or 8 years playing so... I'm not really on board with the too-much-dm-insertion sentiment. To the DM who put his time and effort into today's affairs, you have my appreciation.

[Blood on my Lips]

[edited by Dunshine]

[Marsi]

Stepping out of my bubble of suggestions and screenshots and stories just to chime in very briefly on this:


The only issue that seems to be the constant trend throughout these events, is the lack of communication. Both ways.

Players not communicating their dissatisfaction or confusion or discomfort to the DMs when the time is right (Not afterwards in the forums).

DMs not properly giving their players a clear idea of what their intentions in the short and long run are.

If these two things are improved, I garantee that DM Interaction / Events as a whole will be too.

I don't disagree, and I think a lot of the complaints I delineated in my post deserved to be properly communicated by myself and my fellow players at the time -- but it is hardly comfortable making what is essentially a report to the very people you are reporting. It feels easier to grin and bear it, and often the damage is already done anyway.

[Borin Drakkmurl]

I understand what you're saying, but it is not quite what I was getting at.

I was not speaking of reports nor complaints. I was talking of actual conversations. There is nothing that forbids, stops or discourages dms and players from just..talking ,and getting a grasp of where each other stand.

Aproaching things as if you were sitting around a table with dice and miniatures, rather than playing world of warcraft.

Just sending a tell to a DM and say: "Hey, this that we're doing right now. I am not sure I understand x/y. Can you help me out?"

A DM saying to a player: " Hello there. I was thinking perhaps it would be cool if we could continue that one plot line. I had a few cool ideas I think you will enjoy. Is that cool?"



Overall..just reinforcing a more communal aproach to the game, rather than an adversarial one.

[Sab1]

[edited by Dunshine]

[Cortex]

[edited by Dunshine]

Without getting involved in this myself, I think the thread is more about a trend rather than a very specific event.

[Mr_Rieper]

Guys, I will say one more thing before I head off.

It seems some people want to talk about a specific event, and how frustrated it made them feel. Or how it didn't make them feel frustrated at all. Either way, avoid talking about a specific event, unless you're giving an example.

Why?

Because if this is really an issue worth talking about, you can talk about it in general terms and still include your issues or lack thereof with relation to the recent event. As in, if there is a problem worth talking about, it wasn't isolated to the most recent event alone.

So therefore, bring the focus back to the larger issue. The bigger picture. If this becomes a thread discussing the most recent event, you're going to find people on either side lashing out in frustration.

Focus on the long term problem and explain why it's worth dealing with it now, instead of sweeping it under the rug or dismissing it as whining.

[Commie]

A suggestion. Get the involved players online, in game, tp them to a dm area with a few dms on, and talk about what worked and didn't and what both sides would like going forward.

Being ig vs forums and it becomes a conversation as opposed to "oh I was at work and missed 30 posts so is what I wanted to say on page 2/8 even relevant now"

I'm an arelith nobody but I've run internet communities for the past decade and getting everyone in one place where they can talk and respond in real time nearly always builds bridges instead of burning them. Real time discussion simply gives, or allows for, voices from more people.

[The GrumpyCat]

There's a very interesting conversation, and consideration, to be had here between:

'The Players should not ignore the presence of the NPCs'

and

'The NPCs should not be the ones to entirely dictate the actions of the players.' (inform yes, but not dictate)

Where this line lies I'm not entirely sure. And it's late for me so I won't be mulling over it now. But I do want to post a small warning and reminder here to please keep this civil, and repsectful to the Dm team, and to other players. I've had no complaints of yet, and everything seems above board. But this is the sort of topic that can spiral out of control quickly - so please take this as your first formal warning.

In the mean time - Enjoy and Carry on.

[JediMindTrix]

Honestly, get off the high horse, be grateful the DM took the time to make and event, and get over it.

Speak for yourself please.