Page 4 of 5

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:08 pm
by flower
Cortex wrote:....



My friend was winning in pvp against multiple enemies and full factions even on old toons. Does it mean there is not problém? No. It means said guy was lucky (foes rolled 1s etc), knows his job better than enemies and so on.

IT does not mean something is not broken. That a sub class build kills some epic level does not make from that sub class build suddenly one of the best.

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:35 pm
by Commie
I would just like a lore explanation of why attacking a physically durable barbarian physically damages me.

It's why I didn't play the class. I couldn't reconcile the lore behind it and am turned off by pure "video game-y" mechanics. But some people clearly like that sort of stuff.

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:09 pm
by rookie
Personally I think removing the ability to use Wands/Scrolls while raging (use the Kensai code maybe) would allow better use of counters and makes sense thematically.

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:25 pm
by Ork
Commie wrote:I would just like a lore explanation of why attacking a physically durable barbarian physically damages me.


Ask the barbarian you're fighting.

There doesn't need to be lore behind every mechanic. Why do player owned locks reach 127 DC? Why does Tyr love it when I kill wolverines and give me .5% piety?

Don't limit yourself with lore. Mechanics are a broad representation of what's happening in a game. Sometimes I conjure demons with planar summoning, sometimes I conjure slaadi. I can interpret that as a player to determine meaning. "I summon demons because I didn't ward my mind against fel thoughts" could be a valid, lore driven explanation.

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:06 pm
by Commie
Summoning hostile outsiders defiantly has rp behind it though. Binding is its whole own mechanic.

Taking physical damage just because you dared to attack a tanky bruiser? It doesn't even have a vfx.

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

PostPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:26 pm
by Xerah
You get hit as you're trying to hit them. It doesn't seem that hard to justify. There are far more obscure things out there.

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:52 am
by nobs3
Limiting the use of items and skills while raging might be interesting.

Parry is a barb skill... but who plays an dex build barb?

So maybe parry works different with barb. E.g. blocking/taking blows and hitting very hard back.

What about parry not based on dex but on const (and maybe without armor malus) + hard damage bonus?

    - The idea of const/HP and dmg. reduction replacing AC is one main principle of (most) barb und should be supported.
    - The other one is hitting hard without criticals.
    - And rage: temp war maschine (maybe even bringing danger to himself and his own party).

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:49 am
by Durvayas
I'm also of the opinion a barbarian should be unable to use scrolls and wands while raging. Magic requires two things; Know-how and focus. While a barbarian is frothing at the mouth and berzerking, they should have neither.

Its a stretch of the imagination to see a barbarian stop his berzerking rage to carefully select a specific scroll, unfurl it, focus, and cast calmly and with perfectly voiced intonations for the incant as though trained by elminster himself, before going back to being an engine of rage and death.

It's cheeze.

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:43 pm
by nobs3
Limiting the use of items/skills (e.g. wands and scrolls) while raging might...
- push pure barb builds
- help barb rp (rage)
- legitimate some other (rage) bonuses

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:09 pm
by Cortex
There are numerous ways of RPing barbarian rage, forcing limits upon rage would also limit these RP concepts. And not something I'll delve into.

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:27 pm
by Peppermint
It's a video game. Chill.

There are far more interesting things to focus on in RP than whether the barbarian 100% cleaved to barbarian rage lore.

Thou Mother Dost bloweth thine bubblegum

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:17 pm
by hmm2
out of all those who are commenting on this topic.
Who here
Regularly plays a Barbarian?

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:36 pm
by gilescorey
Cortex has probably played more barbarians than anyone on the server, tbh.

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:46 pm
by PinkFuzzyBunnyoftheApocolypse
I play barbarians rather frequently.

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:50 pm
by Covex
I play two kinds of barbs AC Dwarf and Twohand Orog both have
love my dwarf more then the Orog.

Re: Thou Mother Dost bloweth thine bubblegum

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:15 pm
by Commie
hmm2 wrote:out of all those who are commenting on this topic.
Who here
Regularly plays a Barbarian?


I don't, mostly due to not liking the bite back mechanic.

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:20 pm
by Nemain
High Primate wrote:...How does it explain the fact that a Barbarian with 2 str wielding a weapon he's not even focused in would do Biteback damage...


To understand that, you gotta envision someone raging out. Really, really hard.... Gain plot armor kind of hard... Or just this:

Image

The barbarian doesn't wield their weapon right like a WM would: they just add in headbutts, elbows, biting and foot stomping.

High Primate wrote:... or a Barbarian who is under the effects of a hold spell?


That's a different technique altogether, which could also be applied to the other cases: you see, the barbarian's so damn tough that whenever you hit him... You feel sorry for the poor guy and it hurts your feelings aswell.


That said, I do have a barb over in FL that I've played sometimes, and feel that the loss of biteback will provably be the moment where she'll have to be retired.

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:06 pm
by nobs3
My posts are somewhat "biased" since:
I play an orog barb and from the start on the concept I wanted to try was:
Don’t care about AC (26 at high epic lvl), don’t care about being vulnerable to magic (no save enhancement), don’t care about using magic (no rogue levels)...
just: be tough, tough, tough and hit hard!
(and I enjoy the mix of weak spots and extreme power)

Temp. HP (and later dmg-red) are mostly needed for this build and bit back is a very effective positive bonus. (most of all if your party is in trouble and you stand alone; I don’t care for PvP)

So if you would optimize this build (skill dump on rogue and special gear...) and combine it with a special play style it has the potential to be very powerful.
But without this and also cultivating its weaknesses it is far from it.

(I think that is the case for many classes/builds ->> shapechanging druids? ;))

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:09 pm
by rookie
My highest level character is a multiclass barbarian/conlock (pre-change, but still works fine now) and another character is a more traditional barbarian.

For the first it is pretty hilarious to hit rage and watch people do "the smart thing" and run only to be blasted in the back and give me breathing room (as a player) to calmly pull out whatever scroll/wand I need and use it. And if they do "the dumb thing" and hit me I can make that painful too.

I don't want it to sound like I'm a good PvPer or this is a good build, probably in an arena match it would lose often. Out and about though the people that attack me seem to get real panicky and make more mistakes than not and the barbarian mechanics make it very forgiving of my own mistakes.

It fits the character's RP but I do think being able to UMD and cast while raging is a bit much. I think raging should to be a choice that makes you powerful in melee but has some negatives to it. Right now it is just "Do I want to be awesome for a bit and can I finish things before I'm not so strong: Yes/No"

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:11 pm
by TimeAdept
While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats.


This would go a way towards fixing the "hits rage and uses scrolls" thing, if tha's considered an issue.

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:31 pm
by Ebonstar
Bok bites when the wrong people touch him, you going to pull his teeth?

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:25 pm
by Diilicious
TimeAdept wrote:
While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats.


This would go a way towards fixing the "hits rage and uses scrolls" thing, if tha's considered an issue.


It would also go a way towards nerfing the class into the floor for "muh realism"

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:52 pm
by TimeAdept
I'm not sure being unable to read scrolls or use wands mid-rage counts as "Nerfing into the floor" strictly speaking, considering they'd be able to use it any time they like outside of that, including during the cooldown rage time when they're suddenly at their weakest and may need access to those the most.

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:29 pm
by Commie
Well it would be a huge nerf. Right now, unless you have a way to stop actions from range, if you attempt to ikd to stop a use of a scroll or Wand you may eat hundreds of physical damage from bite back over a flurry, so, even if you successfully stop the scroll, you took a lot of damage to do it.

The idea of a low ac max con barb sounds hilarious btw. I wonder how high you could get bite back damage? Could any melee even kill you before they died to bite back? You would have godlike hp and fort saves so you could sure outlast them...

Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:32 pm
by Dreams
They've already said bite back is being removed. Chill.