Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

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High Primate
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Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by High Primate » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:30 am

Guys... I just wanted to ask about the in-universe explanation of Biteback damage... I didn't mean for it to turn out like this... not like this...
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Invader_Nym
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Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by Invader_Nym » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:01 am

High Primate wrote: It does! Because honestly, biteback damage is kind of lame. If you're gonna hurt your opponent you should earn that privilege by actually doing something well, not just standing there and taking hits.
I agree. It's a major departure from the standard combat/AC system just for one melee class. If it's true that barb is being reworked sans bite-back, well, I find that to be delightful.

Astral
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Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by Astral » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:01 am

Meh. Unpopular opinion time.

I've seen stuff like 21 barb, 6 cot, 3 bard, make it to lvl 30 and staying relevant both in pve and pvp and get like 40 will save when raging (fort is already 40, reflex is supposed to be the low save but in reality it's not even that low against bigby's line of spells and stuff like that).

Even if you are a pin cushion that literally takes damage and then die, you need to take like 1000 damage before you're actually dead. That's a lot of tanking you can do, and a lot of damage the other side takes. I think the class still has a very strategic position in Arelith as it is, even at lvl 30, that no other class can fill right now in the same way. Also, that's before you take into account things like elemental shield.

My problem with the class is actually early game. I found it very difficult to level without dying to something stupid every time the rage wears off mid combat so I never made it past lvl 7 or something. The way rage works is SOOOO annoying in early lvls when your con score is low and the rage ends mid combat very often.

As others have said, the mechanics of the bite-back don't make sense IC and I can accept that but I don't think it's the deal breaker. The deal breaker is pretty much everything else.

If the class is being reworked, my suggestion is to focus on the class's DR aspect. For example, scaling physical damage immunity percentage, scaling with con score, or something like that. Anything that focuses on sustainability rather than offense, is the best way to balance a class that wants to go AC-less.
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-XXX-
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Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by -XXX- » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:20 am

@FrozenSolid: It appears to me that your issue is more with the general PvP courtesy than anything regarding the barbarian class. We're on an RP server and RP should be a cooperative and mutually enjoyable effort (PvP included). I'd describe anyone who's trying to bring competitiveness with the intent to gain the satisfaction of winning into this as a selfish toxic moron who has no idea what's going on. It's an OOC player problem and has nothing to do with Barbarians specifically IMO.
FrozenSolid wrote:You cannot kill anyone in a meaningful way. Even if you get the right combination to beat a Barbarian and pull it off. Guess what, he respawns and kills you when you don't have that one build that's able to take him on.
This works both ways. You are perfectly capable to utterly disregard the outcome of any PvP encounter and just mind your own business if you did not enjoy the superficial RP that your opponent offers. In the long run they lost more because they had to waste an expensive Timestop scroll for example. If their investment to your mutual interactions is just a cheesy single-liner before the PK, why should you feel compelled to invest time and emotion into it? If this turns out to be a griefing behavioural pattern on their part, you have the DMs to help you.
What I'm trying to say is that getting angry over your PC getting killed during a PvP encounter is ultimately your own problem.

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Eters
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Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by Eters » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:33 am

Since the original question was "how does one explain biteback ingame?" I will answer about how I personally explain it when it comes to my barb.
When she gets in rage, think of it as a frenzy, a state where one disconnects all the meaningless informations off their mind and focus solemly on fighting, it's wild, it's reckless and it's scary, in that state, when one attacks my barb , her body flails an arm, a leg, whatever's close back in the direction from which that attack came from, a sort of reflex riposte born from her way of fighting and the fact that she's always getting stabbed and cut.

Mechanically? Yes it's cancer and weird. But as someone who plays a barb I can tell you, they're not as scary and immortal demi gods as they seem.

One thing I may add, as someone who plays a barbarian I went into a great lot of work to build my character around her rage, how it affects her, how she deals with it, etc... It pains me to know that some people would judge the whole playerbase based on one or two barbarians who use the mechanics to stomp on lower level players, and I'd really like it if such a stereotype was not painted on everyone, It would be pretty problematic if people started avoiding me just because they see "intimidativeness : extremely high" in my description.

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Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by FrozenSolid » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:23 am

I don't think what I was trying to explain was accurately understood. But that's okay I can maybe present a clearer and refined argument later if I still feel it is an issue and it comes up. It is hard to make arguments when people automatically assume it's an attack and I must be attacking all barbarian players.

That simply isn't the case.

My reasoning for mentioning the RPR isn't to attack all barbarians but a suggestion I thought could be benefiticial overall. The main goal being, leave the Barbarian powerful, but have a system that ensures the people using the class are dedicated to more then just their K/D ratio or next power build.

when there is an opportunity to discuss something that has generally bothered me, in this case Barbarians, I'd like to share my experiences and offer what I think could be a solution to a problem.

For me, the Barbarian has often been a build I have seen abused. So in addition to the removal or reworking of Bite Back I also wanted to mention an RPR requirement for the build could be benefitcial step.

(And yes Eters your Barbarian is great, I thought it was really cool when I realised that she was that build and you were rping out the mechanical side of a barbarian not just using it because it was
Mechanically strong. That is the kind of Barbarian playing that I think is really great! Actually having the rage be apart of the character and not just an action bar item.)
*Didn't just do that* As an arrow flies hitting someone in the face.

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Dreams
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Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by Dreams » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:38 am

You might notice that a lot of barbarians actually roleplay it that way!

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Peppermint
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Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by Peppermint » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:45 am

I'm confused.

Is the plan to RPR restrict any class that's used frequently in PvP?

If so, that list goes well beyond barbarians. We may as well just restrict playing on Arelith altogether.

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Eters
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Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by Eters » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:47 am

A barbarian shouldn't be more powerful than a weapon master in my opinion, the fact that barbarians are considered god-tier unbeatable battle machine of doom just means that they need to be fixed, I think that a "fighter/ weaponmaster" and a "fighter/ barbarian" are two sides of the same coin.

For one you have the fighter who recieved proper training in swordplay, that uses distinct strategies in the way they fight , a disciplined, controlled way of fighting , a person that dedicated most of their life to master a weapon and can use it with deadly accuracy.

On the other hand you have the fighter who grew up with no proper training, turning himself to the most primal way of fighting, anger, and honing it through experience, It's reckless and is mostly based on his primal and natural senses rather than trained and practiced routines, one that turns himself into a weapon rather than try to master one.

To limit one of these sides with an RPR limitation wouldn't be beneficial because RPR is not an accurate way to judge one's quality of roleplay. There are people with very neat roleplaying potential but that don't have a high RPR, does it mean that they're less better roleplayers than the rest? Not really. Such limitation would close the door on the people who, despite being good and motivated to play such a class, would find themselves unable to do so, It's not a prestige class and honestly, it doesn't require alot of knowledge of the lore of FR to RP it correctly.

I think it would be far more beneficial if the class recieved a proper overhaul, allowing it to shine where it's supposed to shine, without turning it either into something weak, nor into something more broken than now.

Keeping it as it is and hiding it behind an RPR requirement wall would still keep the barbarian just as broken as it is, just less accessible.

rookie
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Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by rookie » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:49 am

Obviously just my 2 cents here, I apologize if this sounds like I'm trying to tell people what to do, this is meant as a suggestion.

I'm generally not a fan of these "we're looking at changing stuff in the future" type posts with only vague information.

Without the ability to rebuild as is true in the vast majority of cases, a change that is actually good for fresh barbarians may not be good for current barbarians. And even if it is people get all worked up over something that they can't give input on because a draft isn't presented.

I'm not saying don't post, but I think having a more concrete plan placed in a post could at least set expectations. Sometimes it is easy to forget that the player base isn't privy to the design process.

It would be like if my boss called me on a Friday night to come to his office first thing Monday morning and then hung up. Am I'm getting fired, project cancelled, promoted, is someone else being fired, company being bought, what?

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Cortex
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Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by Cortex » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:55 am

There's been way too many changes for me to give an honest plan of what is to be done, there's been multiple ideas of how to change barbarian, and what I tell you today might not be the same tomorrow, until we settle on something we're content with.

Plus, telling you now that something will happen beats not telling you at all. At least this way, if you worry, you can not play a barbarian.
:)

rookie
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Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by rookie » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:14 am

Without any information on the time frame that doesn't mean too much in my eyes at least. As far as I know being out of the loop the change could happen next week, a month from now, or 2018. The meta is always changing, I could read that a change is ahead and roll another non-barbarian character only to find out that the barbarian change affected the meta in such a way to largely invalidate that.

Don't get me wrong, I've liked the vast majority of changes that have been made over the past year and trust that the next iteration will be well thought out. I just think with a vague post people will read what they want to from it which leads to nonconstructive feelings and posts because that's how people commonly react to the unknown.

Again though, just an opinion I wanted said and admit I could very well be wrong, I can understand where you're coming from even if I don't agree with it.

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Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by Trunx » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:14 pm

gilescorey wrote: (they aren't, it's the same concept as why true strike isn't OP: you can just run away until it wears off. It isn't even hard, they're as fast as anybody who drinks a haste potion)
While I don't think they're overpowered, the biteback mechanic is annoying, and "running away until it wears off" isn't a very good solution. Sure, it works, but it's awful gameplay, because nothing stops the barbarian from running away from you until they get their rage back, so it's just an eternal circle of running. Except the cooldown isn't as long as the rage is, so the barbarian's opponent will spend longer running away. Also, the one who has to spend the first phase of combat running away is at a distinct disadvantage due to the different RP situations where PvP might happen. Most [citation needed] PvP isn't 1v1 in arena conditions where you have both the space and the luxury to spend as much time as you want avoiding someone.

So I think it's a good idea to rework barbarian, because the mechanic is, despite not being exactly overpowered, very wonky, gameplay wise.
Cortex wrote:
It does not, it was pointed out in previous posts that Ethereal Visage or even Ghostly Visage weakens a barbarian's biteback.
Ethereal visage is often suggested as a counter, but a smart barbarian will instantly use a lesser breaching wand, which is both faster and more economical than scrolls of EV, and a wand has many more charges than a f.ex. bard has slots.

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-XXX-
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Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by -XXX- » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:23 pm

Every round you are compelled to waste putting up some mandatory ward required to counter a melee character's gimmick is a round they can spend unloading their full APR of punishment into your toon's face.

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Dalenger
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Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by Dalenger » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:41 pm

Wytchee wrote: nerf druids.
Finally, someone with the guts to say what we're all thinking.


I've played a pure(ish) barb since the rework, and they certainly aren't OP. Thematically, barbs are supposed to be terrifyingly OP during their rage, and then bad fighters the rest of the time. The last PVP I had, against a (sub-par built) stealther, went something like:
:arrow: We start swinging, both getting a round of good hits
:arrow: I activate my rage and get one solid biteback against him
:arrow: Stealther runs around a corner and corner stealths
:arrow: I fiddle for my TS wand (didn't have it quickslotted, stupid) and the stealther gets a few good crippling strikes on me
:arrow: I pray, but immediately start losing str again afterwards. My rage wears off
:arrow: I drop to 3 str have to concede

Basically the strategy for fighting a barb is not to stand too close to them while they're frothing at the mouth. And even then, even the most basic DR spells seriously nerf the biteback. I don't really mind the barb biteback rage. To me, it creates a thematic "don't stand next to that angry hulk of meat and muscle" feel whenever I'm raging. However, I will always be outdamaged by a wellbuilt anything else.
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Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by PinkFuzzyBunnyoftheApocolypse » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:50 pm

High Primate wrote:
PinkFuzzyBunnyoftheApocolypse wrote:It is really a mute [sic] point where the damage comes from. Barbarians can RP it however they would like and that is the way it ought to be.
OK. So it's perfectly cool if we say that Ao is intervening every time someone hits my Barb?

Also, just to clarify, I, for one, am not saying that Barbs are OP. They can be beaten. I just find biteback damage implausible, even for a fantasy-world PW, and too simple a solution to a Barbarian's woes. But it looks like it's being taken out, so I'm happy now.
That is understandable and I can agree with you here. It is hard to have a good RP reason for biteback but I think it can be done.

I also have a problem with barbarians taking levels in Rogue just for the dump in UMD. Really the only reason I can think of to do that is to troll. I for one would not even consider doing that. If you take levels in Rogue for Tumble I'm okay with that because it seems realistic. As a barbarian I HATE magic and look down on those who use it. To my mind my Great-axe is more powerful, my strength and health are plenty and magic is anathema.

I think a plausible fix might be to do more damage resistance for a barbarian or a soak damage that in the end actually comes back to injure said barbarian at a 50% rate or so at the end of his rage. Something of a "Holy Dinglenuts, that bastard cut my arm off" *faints dead away*.

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Dalenger
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Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by Dalenger » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:57 pm

PinkFuzzyBunnyoftheApocolypse wrote:It is hard to have a good RP reason for biteback but I think it can be done.
I tend to think of it as "the consequences of standing withing swinging range of someone in a mouth-frothing rage". Not perfect, but it tends to work for me.
PinkFuzzyBunnyoftheApocolypse wrote:I also have a problem with barbarians taking levels in Rogue just for the dump in UMD.
If you're building a char to be anything but sub-par, you need UMD. To not take the three levels in either rogue or bard is making a conscious decision to build a mechanically weak(er) character than its UMD-sporting counterpart. It sucks, but it isn't time yet for us to have another UMD-rage megathread.
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Lorkas
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Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by Lorkas » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:08 pm

Also, not all barbarians have to be anti-magic.

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Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by PinkFuzzyBunnyoftheApocolypse » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:21 pm

Dalenger wrote:
PinkFuzzyBunnyoftheApocolypse wrote:I also have a problem with barbarians taking levels in Rogue just for the dump in UMD.
If you're building a char to be anything but sub-par, you need UMD. To not take the three levels in either rogue or bard is making a conscious decision to build a mechanically weak(er) character than its UMD-sporting counterpart. It sucks, but it isn't time yet for us to have another UMD-rage megathread.
Then I am making a sub-par barbarian all for the sake of my RP. Man isn't that a concept. And I am okay with that.

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Commie
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Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by Commie » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:23 pm

gilescorey wrote:
Commie wrote:Like a League of Legends character? A "tanky bruiser?"
Yeah man, his point is invalid because of the terms he used. Let's use terms from [alternative media source of your choice] instead, so he isn't unclean and clearly anti-roleplay.
Didn't say it was bad. Lots of video games make takes that work because people are dissuaded from attacking them. It's a pretty common video game mechanic. League just happens to call them "Tanky Bruisers" and they are one of the five kinds of characters in the game!

Barbarians just fill that role here with the bite back damage.

SwampFoot
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Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by SwampFoot » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:03 pm

My biggest concern with losing biteback damage is trying to find AC for a medium armor wearing, two-hand weapon wielding warrior with no tumble. Without that mechanic why would I want to get hit at all?

I already think a pure 30 barb will take a back-of-the-pack position against a pure 30 anything. Let's hope that's not the case. I'm already looking toward rolling my pure barb after the rework.

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Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by PinkFuzzyBunnyoftheApocolypse » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:27 pm

Lorkas wrote:Also, not all barbarians have to be anti-magic.
Granted... However, any self-respecting pure barbarian or barbarian/rogue should have a proper disdain for magic considering his already enormous strength and health he would natural depend on those things to carry him through.

If you want to multiclass between barbarian and wizard/sorceress, well I am okay with that. Merely picking rogue for the UMD is a troll thing to do. It just wouldn't make sense for a barbarian to do that just for the magic unless they wanted to troll.

If they were truly interested in magic they would multi-class and not OP themselves by choosing Rogue just for the UMD benefit. I call troll.

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Diegovog
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Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by Diegovog » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:39 pm

Would giving a clear visual cue while the barbarian is raging, help? That way people could be easily aware and avoid biteback.

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gilescorey
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Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by gilescorey » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:42 pm

Trunx wrote:While I don't think they're overpowered, the biteback mechanic is annoying, and "running away until it wears off" isn't a very good solution...
I didn't mean to imply that it was like, fun or anything to play against, just that it isn't quite as impossible as FS makes it out to be.

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flower
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Re: Barbarian Biteback Damage: A Query

Post by flower » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:04 pm

That biteback is broken was told repeatedly year ago.

That it is going to be re worked, was stated many times since it.

So yes changes may be good for new fresh ones and badly nerfing for current. But people had been warned...

I am rather shocked that thing, about those scripting it / introducing said in past is bad and should be changed takes over a year (or more, as it is not done yet) to be removed?

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