ShadowDancers... Master of Disguise?

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Kaymon24
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ShadowDancers... Master of Disguise?

Post by Kaymon24 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:35 pm

I looked into the rp of a SD and they are of course... a master of well shadows. Couldn't they have bluff though so they can disguise themselves very good too? I mean you could always take rouge and get the skill points cap but I am making a mostly pure SD and was thinking perhaps it would be better of SD's to be able to disguise themselves very well naturally rather than force rouge levels or other class that has Bluff/Perform on a player. They can't perform either so... was wondering if disguise fits their demeaner in rp?

Ironsoul
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Re: ShadowDancers... Master of Disguise?

Post by Ironsoul » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:47 pm

I hear what you're saying, but the max levels you can take for a SD is 20... so that leaves ten levels you're free to take which ever combination of other classes you wish. I feel like that's pretty ample considering you can cover the full breadth of Shadow Dancer abilities and have a greater flexibility then most non PRC classes.

Kaymon24
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Re: ShadowDancers... Master of Disguise?

Post by Kaymon24 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:32 pm

Fair point but that basically means take rouge, assassin, or bard/harper scout and two of those classes require dm permission. Which most SD classes have rouge/assassin levels but that leaves out our monks/shadow mages. What good is HiPS if your opponent knows who you are rpwise? Shadowdancers should be able to keep their reputation of mystery to others by being both in plain sight and out of plain sight. And how can you be a master of persuasion (since persuade is one of their class skills) and can't really persuade someone to think you are someone else? I get what you are saying with the ten levels but I am looking at the class itself and as the look of the rp Shadowdancers display... it should be a given to disguise themselves to others if they so wish to.

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Baseili
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Re: ShadowDancers... Master of Disguise?

Post by Baseili » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:44 pm

I suppose you could look at it as Shadowdancers are masters in the art of not being seen, compared to being disguised which is the art of being seen but not noticed/recognised.

Think of it like a cat burgler vs a con artist.

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Ambigue
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Re: ShadowDancers... Master of Disguise?

Post by Ambigue » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:45 pm

Persuade is a skill that represents bringing someone around to your point of view. Bluff is trying to convince someone that something is true despite evidence to the contrary.

Persuasion is an active process. Deception can be done passively.

The disguise function would work best with a disguise skill, but such a skill does not exist. I think that assigning its functions to bluff and perform were probably the smartest ways to handle that.

That said, the persuade skill has little utility on the server, so there's room to do something interesting with it still.

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Aero Silver
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Re: ShadowDancers... Master of Disguise?

Post by Aero Silver » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:27 pm

From my understanding, you can't add Skills to classes that don't have it without HAKs.

But i generally agree with the idea. I believe that all rogue classes could use Bluff, like a masked Monk, a hooded Ranger, or a veiled Shadowdancer. Not all ninjas were assassins, spies and saboteurs could use a disguise.

If it makes you feel better, shadowdancer is not about social camouflage: HiPS makes your character vanish from the sight of others, but doesn't let them blend in with others. The whole trope of SD is to con (persuade) someone into allowing themselves to be pickpocketed, only to vanish and never show up again. At least, that is the typical stereotype.
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Kaymon24
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Re: ShadowDancers... Master of Disguise?

Post by Kaymon24 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:55 pm

Ideas on Persuade? Maybe it could be an appraise check just like rouges/assasins/bards get to "persuade" the merchant to give you a smaller price. Or maybe it could be the opposite of appraise on NPC merchants on arelith and give you lower buying prices instead? Or could be used to override scripts your race/class can't get into or learn about/take and lets you take them if your skill is good enough... also thought maybe you can cheat in elections and persuade citizenships in cities for smaller prices or put an extra vote in for you and you are not a citizen. All types of things you can do with that if devs have interest in it.

Kaymon24
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Re: ShadowDancers... Master of Disguise?

Post by Kaymon24 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:58 pm

That could be a OP thing with the votes but it's an idea to have a use somewhere in that category maybe.

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Ambigue
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Re: ShadowDancers... Master of Disguise?

Post by Ambigue » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:12 pm

The problem with persuade is that it's for engaging with NPCs. Between the PCs and DMs, RP handles that function.

In the old Eberron Online game persuade was used to manage aggro. Not sure that would work.

Might be nice to have the occasional special spawn that can be resolved via persuade. Or maybe a tough dungeon gatekeeper that can be bypassed (for XP) by persuading him to let you pass. Heck, let folks persuade the toll bridge guy to let them pass without paying. Maybe have an 'artisan's guild' that you can stop by once every 24 hours and you can do a persuade check to recoup some of your crafting points.

It would have to be pretty useful in a game world where you basically need to dedicate 60+ skill points to discipline and tumble. 90+ if you want to get UMD, too. Many classes can only really keep 3-5 skills maxed out.

Kaymon24
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Re: ShadowDancers... Master of Disguise?

Post by Kaymon24 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:16 pm

Pretty much but even though it would mainly be for NPC's that override of talking them into what you want would be freaking awesome for player and to rp community

Kaymon24
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Re: ShadowDancers... Master of Disguise?

Post by Kaymon24 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:24 pm

And rouges/SD are able to handle taking that skill if they want to along with the discipline and tumble and UMD etc... just gotta have some Intellegence... but I see what your saying that it wouldn't be for everybody for priority of skills but it would be an option for them to choose if the player has lots of skills to spend or someone has extra skill to put in and if updated would want to try it out. But the limit to priority of skill points is very true and would have to be something awesome. Maybe can give you access to a shop full of super epic gear or sells 1 adamantine I got per reset and need ALOT if persuade for that. Who knows? Possibilities are endless.

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Ambigue
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Re: ShadowDancers... Master of Disguise?

Post by Ambigue » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:29 pm

Might be nice to make it work a bit like Animal Empathy, letting you convince humanoid mobs or special npcs to join your party temporarily.

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Dreams
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Re: ShadowDancers... Master of Disguise?

Post by Dreams » Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:21 am

Shadowdancers receive 1 hide/SD level, maybe this could be fixed with them receiving 1 perform per level also? Isn't game breaking, but would be a nice addition, and in line with the lore of Shadowdancers.

Kaymon24
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Re: ShadowDancers... Master of Disguise?

Post by Kaymon24 » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:47 am

They are more con artists than actual theives so the perform per level is a good idea.

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Aero Silver
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Re: ShadowDancers... Master of Disguise?

Post by Aero Silver » Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:54 am

Most players only take five levels of SD for HiPS and for Epic Dodge. A minority continue to level 10 or 12. So 5 skill points in Perform hardly helps out with disguise. In fact, only Bards would find it useful (though i can't see why a bard would ever take SD as prestige class).

Any other suggestions?
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InTheFlesh
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Re: ShadowDancers... Master of Disguise?

Post by InTheFlesh » Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:59 am

If anything I'd suggest more shadow-manipulation abilities in fashion that an illusionist can't quite muster, or a buff to Shadow Daze to make it more "befuddling". How to mechanically handle those eludes me at the moment but I'm sure I'll submit something eventually.

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Dalenger
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Re: ShadowDancers... Master of Disguise?

Post by Dalenger » Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:45 pm

If you're playing a SD without either bard or rogue for a UMD drop, you're doing it wrong. Rogue>Assassin, so it's not on that list either. Don't get me wrong, it's annoying to have to fit in one of those two levels late game to top off your bluff, but I guess that's what you get when you try to jack-of-all-trades with a class that isn't a jack-of-all-trades. :shrug:

Bottom line: Shadowdancers are supposed to be really good at hiding, and if that fails them, running.

The trouble with +1 bluff or +1 perform per SD level is it allows you get get ungodly bluff/perform if you take a bunch of SD levels and then cap on a class that has one of those as a class skill. eg, if I take 20 levels of SD and get +1 bluff per level, then cap my 30th with a rogue level, I can get 53 (effective) ranks in bluff vs the usual 33. What a great "eff you" to all the dedicated spotters out there. This is even more broken for bards (assuming +1 perform/SD), as dedicated Bard Songers usually have to invest a lot of gear in perform to get it up to par.

It's impossible to add class skills without haks.
Last edited by Dalenger on Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:48 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Sab1
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Re: ShadowDancers... Master of Disguise?

Post by Sab1 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:56 pm

Just because one is master of shadows doesn't mean they are also masters at pretending to be someone else.

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Drake Strongfist
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Re: ShadowDancers... Master of Disguise?

Post by Drake Strongfist » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:28 am

I think I remember reading somewhere in the original 3rd edition source materials for SD's that they were nearly impossible to identify because they would simply manipulate shadows to keep their features covered at all times. Like a face blanking hood. (they're everywhere on halloween). Of PnP versions also got shadow to shadow teleportation abilities (if you did catch one, good luck keeping them locked in your dank, dark dungeon har har har)

Overall they're pretty damn powerful as it is. I don't see a huge bonus in adding bluff, and I don't really see a huge thorn in their side from not having it either.

I digress....getting back on topic, perhaps they could have a "mode" added that when toggled they simply appear as "unknown generic person or whatever." Spot could break through it with a check vs. SD lvl + shadow manipulation/enhancement feats bonus of +1 per. They could also get penalties due to the amount/type of lighting in the area (like trying to hide with greensteel and light rings, etc)

This wouldn't give them the full use of a customizable "bluff" skill but could still hide their identity for those who wish to do so, albeit not super effectively.

I dunno, I'm playing devil's advocate. Sure seems like a ton of work to implement my ideas, I'm not sure it'd be worth it for our dev's.

Sab1
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Re: ShadowDancers... Master of Disguise?

Post by Sab1 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:02 pm

Also I think with the amount the devs have on their plates that changes that aren't truly needed and just a would be nice to have should get pushed aside so they can focus on the classes that truly have issues.

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Drake Strongfist
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Re: ShadowDancers... Master of Disguise?

Post by Drake Strongfist » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:16 pm

Sab1 wrote:Also I think with the amount the devs have on their plates that changes that aren't truly needed and just a would be nice to have should get pushed aside so they can focus on the classes that truly have issues.

This

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Aero Silver
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Re: ShadowDancers... Master of Disguise?

Post by Aero Silver » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:35 am

Drake Strongfist wrote:I think I remember reading somewhere in the original 3rd edition source materials for SD's that they were nearly impossible to identify because they would simply manipulate shadows to keep their features covered at all times. Like a face blanking hood. (they're everywhere on halloween).
what source is this located in, please?
That is exactly how i RP my SD character. But i don't mind a few tips and assistance with vocabulary.
All articles that coruscate with resplendence are not truly auriferous. Meaning: all that glitters ain't gold.

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