"Rebuild Command" suggestion

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Tetra
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"Rebuild Command" suggestion

Post by Tetra » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:42 am

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Last edited by Tetra on Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Diilicious
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Re: "Rebuild Command" suggestion

Post by Diilicious » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:41 am

I would also like such a rebuild feature.

When i started a year ago, i didnt know what NWN was (my brother had it like 12 years ago but i never saw him play it), i didnt know what D&D was, I had left my last RP hangout and needed a new one so i googled for a place to do role play and Arelith came up. I bought the game from GOG and all that jaz and then i was making my character.

I didnt honestly know what any of the stuff meant, I didnt know you could customise feats and skills on character creation even while a friend was explaining to me. In the end i just pressed recommended.

I get into the server and it starts asking me more complicated questions about paths and "ECL" I was getting annoyed by that point, i just wanted to play and didnt understand what all this rubbish was!

Now however a year on I know a fair amount more knowledge (comparatively) but i cant remake my character because i will lose all my stuff... there should be a way to correct mistakes (and help new people out!) later down the line without being forced to live with terrible mistakes forever.
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Nereida
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Re: "Rebuild Command" suggestion

Post by Nereida » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:16 am

I think this is a good idea, and I've seen it done here in Arelith. From personal experience I can tell that I have been playing a Feylock for months, and when the class suffered drastic changes a couple months ago, I believe every active Feylock was given a free rebuild to adjust to the new class features.

My guess is that in the case of the mage BAB this wasn't done because the change was very recent and players had not had time to commit to their characters in any significant way, so reverting the change wasn't hurting too much anyone's investment. That is relative of course, because someone with a lot of free time and addiction for Arelith can probably put 100+ hours into a character in just a couple of weeks, but also it was a rather quick reverting of some changes rather than redesigning a long time established class.
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Re: "Rebuild Command" suggestion

Post by Ork » Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:55 pm

Arelith wasn't made to have persistent characters played over real life years. The old way of think8ng was that if these changes complicated your lives, reroll. I feel this mentality breeds diversity opposed to stagnation. If you're a new player and learn new things about Arelith that you wished to capitalize on, reroll! New characters create new stories & tensions.

Having the ability to fine tune your character after you've made these decisions seems it would decrease the amount of new characters generated over all.

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Re: "Rebuild Command" suggestion

Post by Opustus » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:01 pm

As Iceborn explains in his post, the rebuild is already a feature in Arelith. For example, you can wiggle your deity options for a 500 XP penalty per, which allows you to delevel as much as you want within the accuracy of that 500 XP. The simplest choice, methinks, would be to make this an option via the console command. If the feature exists already and isn't restricted, I don't see what the problem is.
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Water Margin
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Re: "Rebuild Command" suggestion

Post by Water Margin » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:11 pm

I can see the merits. But if funked up ur build so much that u need to fully rebuild, imho its better to just roll said char and start fresh (maybe you even get to use a reward). Allowing anyone to just easily relevel, I agree creates stagnation. And there are plenty of ppl already too good at that.

Now if a major change/update is made to a certain class? Then yes DMs should offer 1 time remakes like they have done prior.

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Re: "Rebuild Command" suggestion

Post by Cybernet21 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:50 pm

Water Margin wrote:I can see the merits. But if funked up ur build so much that u need to fully rebuild, imho its better to just roll said char and start fresh (maybe you even get to use a reward). Allowing anyone to just easily relevel, I agree creates stagnation. And there are plenty of ppl already too good at that.

Now if a major change/update is made to a certain class? Then yes DMs should offer 1 time remakes like they have done prior.
I think you should read the suggestion linked on the first post,it shows it's not a easy relevel,the suggestion is: you can do once a RL month and you either a)receive the number of levels you deleveled as negative ECL thus making the grinding a bit faster or b) get half the xp of lost levels as adventuring xp,so it certainly isn't done easily and you don't get a full refund (according to the suggestion Iceborn gave)
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Re: "Rebuild Command" suggestion

Post by Iceborn » Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:00 pm

It's not the intention of the feature to breed stagnation, and realistically, that's going to happen with or without a tool to do it. Those who want to fine-tune their characters and play them for five years, will do so.

The point here is, you may need to rebuild without being a level 30 five-years-old character.
Here's some possibilities:

*You completely forgot you needed Cleave to take blackguard levels.
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*Apparently Circle Kick wasn't a good idea.
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*It was either burning orphanages or being a harper. The flames were the most alluring option.
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To the contrary. I don't want this to breed stagnation. I want it to breed change, and a desire to experiment, to try new builds and combinations, instead of asking in the forums or the #GitGud crew. Instead of using directly what is tested and is known that is and isn't going to work. I'd like people to feel like they can remake their characters, to change something essential of their being without feeling like they are being punished for doing it.
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flower
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Re: "Rebuild Command" suggestion

Post by flower » Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:44 pm

If it just removed levels without giving back XPs? Why not.
It would spare ones peity.

One command use = one loss of level with no refund in xps lost.

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Re: "Rebuild Command" suggestion

Post by Artos13 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:30 pm

Wouldn't changing your ECL so drastically also affect the party that you are with as well? So if there was a re-roller in there with -15 ECL, it would set your average party level way off, which would affect XP gains of your fellow party members, along with what spawns in an area, and maybe other assorted things I haven't thought about. XP calculations may have come a long way from what I remember of them though...

As much as I don't like the concepts of re-rolls on characters (for above stagnation issues stated above), I think it's a well thought out solution having the regained XP dripping back in at a non-instant rate, yet still fast enough that you don't feel like you're slogging through levels again.

Also, I think once a month is entirely too generous. I would go with something along the lines of 1-3 times per character, in totality. Otherwise, I don't see why people would retire their 30's, and I think it's important for the server for 30's to rotate out so everybody isn't sitting on a stable of them. Diversity, etc.

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Re: "Rebuild Command" suggestion

Post by Iceborn » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:51 am

Personally, I'd be happy with the option being available at all.
Though... I myself don't see how it would affect the rate that people retire their characters. After all, you can only rebuild so far without changing your first level and first assortment of skills, and Areltih has one thing that Amia did not have: the epic sacrifice. And the epic sacrifice is always going to be there to encourage people to conclude their stories and start new ones.

How about - instead of 3 times per character, x levels per character? I'd like small changes to remain an option.
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Re: "Rebuild Command" suggestion

Post by Tetra » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:39 am

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Last edited by Tetra on Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Rebuild Command" suggestion

Post by Seven Sons of Sin » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:03 am

I think the problem with this being automated is that it's too abusable to be flavour of the month. While there's the up-side of altering a feat to unlocking a new mechanic, there's also the downside of every other character with your build doing the same thing.

I do wish there was a place you could visit on the server (that's not Baator or whatever) where you can just delevel to whatever you want, rather than relying on DMs or the changing deities gimmick.
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Re: "Rebuild Command" suggestion

Post by Griefmaker » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:39 pm

I think one remake per character would be okay, because sometimes updates and changes can hose a character in a huge way. And as many of us know, it can be really hard to find a character that "clicks" with you and for it to suddenly be changed in a fundamental way kind of really sucks.

But on the other hand, I like to see more new characters, which means that players have to retire other characters. So instead of being able to have one character who is completely rebuilt time and time again to try out new mechanics and whatnot, one rebuild only for those fundamental changes should be acceptable.

Of course, this is all my opinion.

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Re: "Rebuild Command" suggestion

Post by MalKalz » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:51 pm

To give my two cents, for what it is worth:

Creating an automation for releveling is a genuine attempt at making things simpler for the player, which I can understand. However, I do not forsee it being a viable option in a roleplaying environment, like Arelith.

Your character has spent level 1 - 30 fine tuning their skills, personality and traits in which they developed a particular class path, which has attributed to strength and weaknesses. Creating an automation to relevel you entirely does you no justice - if your character wishes to learn something, there should be a learning curve. Simply handing you back the EXP to rechoose classes, feats and skills, does not contribute to any roleplay. It is just a tool to gloss over it.

For instance, John Doe is a Fighter / Bard / BG. The player has spent their time developing the necessary back story for this, exhibited the skills surrounding this and has been known as a strong BG (capable of high end summons, decent melee). Player then decides to rebuild - suddenly they are a Fighter / Rogue / WM and better at combat, lost the ability to summon and so forth. But how? Because a mechanic allowed it? Or, was there sufficient roleplay to warrant the change, show the gradual learning curve and explain everything?

I personally look for the story to tell. You can't be a master of all things. And, the automation will just gloss over any roleplay that can come from learning new skills.

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Re: "Rebuild Command" suggestion

Post by Queen Titania » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:55 pm

I'm also not a fan. I can see someone using their once per month level that's lower level than them to help someone else level while they don't level up their character, on top of Spyre's points.

If you gain Admin permission for a special case, (Big class change for example), we can do a "rebuild" for you, but otherwise, we're happy to just de-level you down.
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Re: "Rebuild Command" suggestion

Post by WhiskeyGuy » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:03 pm

flower wrote:If it just removed levels without giving back XPs? Why not.
It would spare ones peity.

One command use = one loss of level with no refund in xps lost.
To me, a newbie here, this seems reasonable.

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Re: "Rebuild Command" suggestion

Post by Baron Saturday » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:15 pm

DM Spyre wrote:To give my two cents, for what it is worth:

Creating an automation for releveling is a genuine attempt at making things simpler for the player, which I can understand. However, I do not forsee it being a viable option in a roleplaying environment, like Arelith.

Your character has spent level 1 - 30 fine tuning their skills, personality and traits in which they developed a particular class path, which has attributed to strength and weaknesses. Creating an automation to relevel you entirely does you no justice - if your character wishes to learn something, there should be a learning curve. Simply handing you back the EXP to rechoose classes, feats and skills, does not contribute to any roleplay. It is just a tool to gloss over it.

For instance, John Doe is a Fighter / Bard / BG. The player has spent their time developing the necessary back story for this, exhibited the skills surrounding this and has been known as a strong BG (capable of high end summons, decent melee). Player then decides to rebuild - suddenly they are a Fighter / Rogue / WM and better at combat, lost the ability to summon and so forth. But how? Because a mechanic allowed it? Or, was there sufficient roleplay to warrant the change, show the gradual learning curve and explain everything?

I personally look for the story to tell. You can't be a master of all things. And, the automation will just gloss over any roleplay that can come from learning new skills.
This seems to assume that you just immediately get the levels back, which is not what is being suggested. If you read the suggestion linked at the top, it proposes that you can drop levels via a command, and then gain some adventure XP or negative ECL to make regaining those levels somewhat easier. Thus if you wished to go from a Fighter/Bard/BG to a Fighter/Rogue/WM, you'd have to drop quite low in level, and still have plenty of time to RP your new class combination before reaching the heights of power you once had.

I also disagree with the assertion that this creates stagnation. If anything, it allows characters that have reached level 30 the ability to continue to reflect their ongoing RP, rather than simply ceasing to grow and change.
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Re: "Rebuild Command" suggestion

Post by Opustus » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:42 am

To Baron and Spyre:

I was thinking if RP justification should be required for the sudden loss of abilities done by way of delevel. After all, your character loses HP, skill points, potentially a whole class, and I think it is fair to expect the player to translate the change of stats into roleplay. The question then, I think, is: is it the player's sole responsibility to handle her RP to represent the changed stats, or can this "requirement for representation" (if deemed necessary) be enforced via the mechanism used for delevelling? Currently the deity swapping gives total freedom to the player to RP or not to RP the changes in her character sheet, but if the DMs so decide, a new feature could try to control it in some way.

EDIT: Edited for clarity!
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Re: "Rebuild Command" suggestion

Post by DreadKnight Cuddles » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:19 pm

I'm curious, what sort of abuse do the posters here have in mind in regards to rebuilding?

I've played on servers that allow full, total free rebuilding as and when one wished and I don't see what damage that could cause. You might tweak a few feats if you dropped a real clanger while starting off but your initial stats leave you quite limited in scope.

A Paladin could fall and become a Blackguard possibly, but a Cleric isn't suddenly going to turn into a Wizard; they either simply won't have the stats for it or if they do it was a terrible build mechanically speaking to begin with.

It could be RP'd badly, but so could an evil Cleric converting in one day and immediately casting high level death spells in the name of Torm which is currently possible but no less a moment for pause.

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Re: "Rebuild Command" suggestion

Post by JediMindTrix » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:54 pm

rebuild available only as a DMFI wand command

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Re: "Rebuild Command" suggestion

Post by Astral » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:37 am

Personally, I never really understood why there's no button that simply removes a desirable amount of exp. Seems like a basic thing in role play engine. Unless there's a factor to it that would/could be abused?
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Re: "Rebuild Command" suggestion

Post by Tetra » Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:08 am

Bumping because I think today's Kensai and to a lesser extent Spellsword updates are why players ought to be able to adjust characters to keep up with class changes. Perhaps if it was a DM supervised thing that could be done in the customization area.

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